Cleats and Anchor

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Mar 7th, '12, 11:36

I have rechromed my lees once--second time around replaced with stainless steel---

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 7th, '12, 11:37

I think I need to amend that last statement. Being that I have pins missing and the cost of rechrome and seems to make sense to just buy new stainless along with the hawse pipe.

All the hardware is going to come off the gunwale so I can use some comments. I'll post a link to pictures of the current layout. Right now I've got two zero degree holders in the transom, which for whatever reason are mounted wrong and 3 in each gunwale. I'd prefer to not fill and drill all new holes but I'd like to listen to pros and cons from you guys.

Also don't want to remount the ladder clips on the tops of the gunwale, will have to find a new solution there....

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 7th, '12, 11:40

Pics were taken hours before last years storm if your wondering why there are lines everywhere.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 7th, '12, 11:58

Those Lees are mounted sideways because you need 15 degree rod holders in the transom in order to mount them correctly.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 7th, '12, 12:00

mike ohlstein wrote:Those Lees are mounted sideways because you need 15 degree rod holders in the transom in order to mount them correctly.

They are zero or 90 degree rod holders currently which is why it baffles me.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Mar 7th, '12, 12:15

Peter- If your problem is broken or missing pins, they can easily be replaced. I suspect your zero degree transom rod holders are mounted that way, is because they're thru-bolted and there might not be enough room underneath to do that if they were turned. If you were changing things, since it seems your last (closest to the transom) holders cant out to the side about 15 degrees, and your transom ones stand straight up, you could replace the two transom ones with standard straight back ones that when placed in your "incorrect" holes might give you a wide "V" in your stern and fill in your trolling pattern. Be forewarned though, if their holes were cut straight up and down with a standard hole cutter, any angled rod holder will create a carpentry problem. All in all though, I think your setup is fine the way it is.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 7th, '12, 13:01

All in all though, I think your setup is fine the way it is.

Seconded...

The rods will be turned 90Âº on the gimble pin so that the reel is faced into the cockpit. No need to change at all. Since there's already three holders on each side gunnel, the transom holders were probably more useful as downrigger stations.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Mar 7th, '12, 13:06

I only had 3 rodholders per side, but I also had 4 in the fighting chair. Since you are redoing the gunnels -- I would suggest you add some flatline clips on the transom. I mounted mine on the underside of my newly installed rubrail and they served me very well.

Best regards,

Tom

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Mar 7th, '12, 23:29

Your taste in colors is impeccable! Fyi. I paid about $70 for the heavy duty ss gems that listed for $118. You should compare them side by side. I've bought dozens of lees and switched over to the gems.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 8th, '12, 08:59

Since I will be removing the gunwale hardware for the swim ladder, I need some sort of replacement. I don't want anything that mounts to the top of the gunwale. Something that can stay in place for a means of reboarding in an emergency would be nice. Also keep in mind I have a 2 1/2 year old son and another on the way, so there will be many days and years of sitting on the hook at the beach with kids jumping in and out of the boat. Also parents in their 70s with a lot of energy who will want to take a dip.

I am thinking one of these is a good solution, mounted in the center of the transom? I still have trim tabs which limits my mounting options in the stern..

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 8th, '12, 09:01

This style may be better

http://www.armstrongnautical.com/tele_ladders.htm

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Mar 8th, '12, 09:59

Peter,

So as to understand and maybe help.

Your plan is to redo the gunnels; removing and filling the holes for scoops, teak steps and ladder mounts? After which there will be an application of non skid?

Your port starboard rod holder layout looks fine, the transom looks fine save the orientation of the holders.

I'm guessing they are all large lees vs. the smaller series and that would be why the transom holders are indexed 90 degress, YES it looks ackward and if you are redoing the gunnels i would try and find a solution. Only straight or 15 degree holders will fit the transom. As stated earlier I would only use rupp or lee holders. Rupp rod holders have a round flange and will fit the transom a little better then the oval lees. If you plan to fish for sea monsters make sure there is ample backing under each rod holder- especially the transom.

If you keep your Lees and are concerned about broken pins just redrill and use shouldered 1/4-20 bolts and they'll be just like new. Check if your rod holders are stainless already they may be able to be polished (only the oldest of Lees are chrome over) Use 202 solvent to clean the white insert (broom handle with a rag wrapped on it) and you'll have a cleaner looking gunnel even with the old holders.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 8th, '12, 10:29

JP,

You are absolutely dead on with my plans. I think I can be pretty happy without moving the rod holders. The transom holders mounted sideways just throws off the look entirely. Something tells me a single center mounted holder in the transom would be more functional, maybe just look better. A few of the holders are not original and in addition to missing pins also I have a few missing sleeve inserts. At the end of the day I want them to all match which likely means replacing rather then polish or rechrome. But I'm up for saving a buck if I can.

Especially in the transom I like the round rather then oval flange. My eye is gravitating towards the round flange "no bolt" look of the Release and Gem Lux. Gem lux does not make a 15 degree heavy duty and the Release are quite pricy.

Rupp only makes chrome on the 15 degree, only 30 degree option on the SS. I am concerned that the Large Lee 15 degree will have to large a flange.

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Mar 8th, '12, 11:27

regarding the no-bolt look---for the hawse pipe---when i was doing mine over-few years back- could not find a ss that was secured from underneath like original. All the ss had 3 screws from the top--so i rechromed my originals.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 8th, '12, 11:32

Craig you are right on the Gem Lux, based on the photos the high tide replacement doesn't seem to have top mounted screw holes.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Mar 8th, '12, 13:31

Peter be careful if you have large Lee gunnel mount holders they are the biggest of the rod holders and you will have to fill the hole before putting new ones in. This will add expense. You can purchase insert material and cut your own if cost is really an issue.

If not fill em all and start with nice new shiny stainless. I'd stay with Lee or Rupp if you really love the no bolt look try Release Marine. Me personally I like through bolted, can't say why just what I'm adjusted to.

BOBMX · Post by **BOBMX** » Mar 8th, '12, 13:48

FYI, Gem Lux did make a bluewater series "heavy duty" in 15 degree, part #225515. They are discontinued but there are 6 left in inventory and are on sale for $71.24 and were originally $148. They also come with backplates. They have oval heads.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 8th, '12, 14:58

JP & Bob,

I'm going to sit down with Rob (Raybo) and figure out what will make the most sense, just gathering as much info from those of you who have already done this so I can make educated decisions. Hoping to avoid mistakes that have already been made.

If I can keep the same holes and need to stick with Lee's so the flange covers up the holes that's a compromise I won't have a problem with.

Would love additional feedback on the telescoping ladder or another solution. Love the ABYC unassisted means of reboarding and couldn't watch the movie "Open Water", with kids it's ultra important.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 8th, '12, 23:08

PeterPalmieri wrote:Would love additional feedback on the telescoping ladder or another solution. Love the ABYC unassisted means of reboarding and couldn't watch the movie "Open Water", with kids it's ultra important.

Peter

The good news with our boats is that the gunnel is so low at the Transom, if you did go in you would have to really out of shape and very over weight not to be able to get back in. You can withsome effort get your arm and hand over the gunnel to get a grip. Then a foot into the exhaust and you are in.

Ask me how I know.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Mar 9th, '12, 07:32

Pete, I have a 4 step Armstrong ladder that works very well. Cautions, you need to beef up the transom or the flex will bother you,not from the kids but my 225# made it move until I beefed it up, also you may want a wedge to compensate for the transom angle. It is a nice piece easy to use and removable. Bill

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Mar 10th, '12, 09:13

What is the consensus for back or reinforcement on gunnel and transom? epoxed ply, coosa, or alum. Figured we are on the subject so I'll ask. I have always used epoxy and ply, But going to get a sheet of coosa and figured I would use try on new projects.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Mar 10th, '12, 10:13

If you have the Coosa, try it. A lot has to do with the year of your boat. Mine is a 64 and the transom is solid as a rock, while I have seen later models with a fair amount of flex when heavy guys step on board.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 11th, '12, 22:29

peter if robbie going to do the entire gunwale and you eliminate those ridiculous air vents as we discuss you can install a "hide away ladder" will go into top of starboard transom . a 3" covered circle that is flush with transom. when you need ladder it pulls out and flop down then open up into ladder. OEM on 29' and up everglades ,come to yard and i will show you operation. it would slide in to the space under gunwale between hull and inside cockpit panel.i imagine raybo has at least two or more sources . well built all ss.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 12th, '12, 06:17

Pete,

If you mount a Single Transom Step at the water line, Solid or Fold Out you'll have little problem getting back in the boat. To get in, First step is on the rudder blade while grabbing the foldout step, then as you step up, go for the gunnel and foot onto foldout and your up. Women and little children that is not always an option.

Ladder...while "I like the ladder" you picked...the lack of something to grab and hold onto as you try to get up and over the gunnel is lacking
For those not as nimble and sure footed on boats it has been an issue for me. For that reason I went back to those folding boarding ladders that just hang over the side of the gunnels. Something that will have at least two of the rungs in the water makes it much easier for the challenged to board.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... sNum=50354

It folds flat, I leave in the engine hatch off to the side. When it gets old, funky and worn I toss and buy a new at less the 50 bucks( I'm on my 2nd in 17 years). It's not the best option... a swim platform would be the best option. But for a ladder this has been my best option. I have had issues with people who do not feel secure climbing up a ladder and swinging over the gunnel without something continuous to follow up and over. People--my mom, sister, one daughter and some friends...they'd get to the top ladder rung and stop then fumble till I helped in...then they became reluctant to go back in.

What I also like is I can hang it on either side or off transom.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 12th, '12, 09:13

I read somewhere in a prior thread, I can't find it now, a ladder that hung over the gunwale without having mounting hardware on the gunwale. Any thoughts?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 12th, '12, 09:24

Mine does not get mounted to the gunnel...just hangs over it. Looks like the one I posted the link to...but does not get attached.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Mar 12th, '12, 11:23

Peter P,
I use a 4 step ladder that hangs over the gunwale, it can be used anywhere in the cockpit, the treads are poly-plastic and it has 2 aluminum hooks that fold flat. I keep it in the Starboard engine box outboard of the engine. Even with my bad knee I can get in and out without any problem, mine is about 15 years old and is still operational. I don't like anything that sticks out from the sides or the transom that can catch a fishing line or cut you. I place mine near the side of the express bridge wing where there is a grab handle to help pull youself up, you can also use a shore power cord holder in one of the rod holders so that you can grab onto something to pull you out of the water. The folding ladders don't cost an arm and a leg and can be bought at any Worst Marine for under $75.00.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 12th, '12, 17:13

So the fortress anchor came in a box and needed to be assembled. FX23 which is a 15lb anchor. The darn thing is huge, should I have gotten the smaller one or am I ok with it?

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Mar 12th, '12, 17:38

PeterP,
The one you needed was the FX 17 the FX 23 is a good anchor but a little large for the foredeck.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 12th, '12, 18:00

I agree with pete and that ?
is the anochor i use when in shallow
water ,any place in bay and in the ocean to 40' or so with light
Wind and current.i imagine it would take much more,.But the first mate goes . for the larger steel danforth when in doubt.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 12th, '12, 18:37

I'm gonna return it for the smaller one, west marine will take anything back thankfully. Not sure I need all the bling for a backup anchor.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Mar 12th, '12, 21:36

sim wrote:Pete,

For those not as nimble and sure footed on boats it has been an issue for me. For that reason I went back to those folding boarding ladders that just hang over the side of the gunnels. Something that will have at least two of the rungs in the water makes it much easier for the challenged to board.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/st ... sNum=50354
It folds flat, I leave in the engine hatch off to the side. When it gets old, funky and worn I toss and buy a new at less the 50 bucks( I'm on my 2nd in 17 years). It's not the best option... a swim platform would be the best option. But for a ladder this has been my best option. I have had issues with people who do not feel secure climbing up a ladder and swinging over the gunnel without something continuous to follow up and over. People--my mom, sister, one daughter and some friends...they'd get to the top ladder rung and stop then fumble till I helped in...then they became reluctant to go back in.

What I also like is I can hang it on either side or off transom.

Sim

I am only on my second one in god knows how many years because I forgot to pull it in and lost it after we took off. Realized it was gone half way home.

I wish they had on or two more steps but are hard to beat.

I also have a rope ladder with weighted plastic steps just in case of an emergency. I can hang it off of any cleat. Not easy to use, but when desperate it is better than nothing.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 13th, '12, 06:33

Pete Fallon wrote:Peter P,
I use a 4 step ladder that hangs over the gunwale, it can be used anywhere in the cockpit, the treads are poly-plastic and it has 2 aluminum hooks that fold flat. I keep it in the Starboard engine box outboard of the engine. Even with my bad knee I can get in and out without any problem, mine is about 15 years old and is still operational. I don't like anything that sticks out from the sides or the transom that can catch a fishing line or cut you. I place mine near the side of the express bridge wing where there is a grab handle to help pull youself up, you can also use a shore power cord holder in one of the rod holders so that you can grab onto something to pull you out of the water. The folding ladders don't cost an arm and a leg and can be bought at any Worst Marine for under $75.00.

Thats the one...cheap. simple, compact and easiest to board with in my opinion.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 13th, '12, 10:30

You have all been a tremendous help, thank you.

I think I'm going to buy a new perko anchor chock which has a screw locking mechanism, designed specifically for fortress anchors.

With Rob's help I decided on 2 lees holders per side and 3 15 degree holders for the transom. New gas and waste fills. We are rechroming the bow chock and replacing the anchor deck pipe to the larger oval size. 10" gemlux cleats, slim line midship.

Paint and nonskid bow to stern from the rub rail to house windows and gunwale tops around cockpit. Rechroming the "bertam 31" emblems All other hardware including gin pole, old screws will be removed. Recoreing the anchor locker and adding supports to either side of the forward deck, my 69 has no coring above the v berth.

Still have to buy new anchor line and the said ladder.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 13th, '12, 10:33

Forgot to mention adding plexiglass to the deck hatch.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 13th, '12, 10:43

This is the deck pipe that I will be putting in this spring.

http://www.foreandaftmarine.com/6010S.htm

I can't say how it will hold up, but I would avoid the ones that have the cover attached by a ball chain.

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » Mar 13th, '12, 10:52

Mike,

I had the one with the cover attached by a chain and lost the lid eventually. Now I've got the kind in the url and have had it for 4 years and love it. Mine is stainless and seems indestructable.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 13th, '12, 10:58

Peter absolutely essential to have three rod holder per side. Transom not important at all you are better off with the four in the chair and one or two off enter ringer.trasom best for flat lines in your case you have two leave it alone.triple rods on transom=Tangles. Whey ,whey better off center ringer out off harms way!!!!!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 13th, '12, 11:59

peter chocks by whitecap solid 316ss .mike "birds of a feather" deck pipe is 11 years old never cleaned just fresh water after docking.

<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r21/ ... eck002.jpg" target="_blank"><img></a>

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 13th, '12, 12:00

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 13th, '12, 12:37

Bob, is that rust forming on the Stern Screw??

Same Pipe Pipe here. Think I have about 10 years on it, some superficial rust forms on the spring...but otherwise it's perfect.
Much better then trying to shove rope into an 1-1/4 hole in sloppy seas then looking for where the cap went off to.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:03

That is the deck pipe I bought, I have the SS anchor chocks now that I could remount. The Perko is chrome plated but has a locking nut. If the Fortress fits my existing I could stick with it, I like the idea of the Perko for safety unfortunately they don't make it in SS. Downside of the whitecap is the anchor isn't secured in rough seas and will need to be stowed or buy an additional fastener. I'd like my anchor to remain on the bow.

http://www.perko.com/catalog/category/d ... oduct/685/

As for the rod holders the three on the transom are more for convenience for inshore fishing rather then dedicated offshore trolling. I'd like to add a sailfish chair or pedestal launcher down the road which will give me plenty of options, when I put outriggers on the boat. I can always add a 3rd holder to each side if I feel the need, filling holes again would be harder..

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:05

Peter absolutely essential to have three rod holder per side. Transom not important at all you are better off with the four in the chair and one or two off enter ringer.trasom best for flat lines in your case you have two leave it alone.triple rods on transom=Tangles.

Ummmmmmmm?????????? Where to begin?

Peter does the boat have a chair or center rigger? I remember seeing the old rockaway style barber chair for sale some time back. Did you replace it?

3 rod holders per side essential? why? I didn't get that memo and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. If they were essential then anyone with only 2 in the gunnels must not catch anything, I've wondered why we've been so handicaped fishing the last few years?!?!?

Your gonna have a nice clean uncluttered gunnel just rod holders and only 7 total,,,,, nice..

The stowable ladder sounds like the ticket, no new hardware anywhere clean and simple...perfect

Good luck with the project, in the end its your baby and you've gotta be happy with her. For what its worth sounds like your going to have an even prettier old girl when your done.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:16

sim wrote:Bob, is that rust forming on the Stern Screw??

Looks like someone used a tool steel screwdriver on that stainless screw head....

Peter, buy some stainless steel screwdrivers. Double up on the #2 Philips. The stainless screwdrivers are soft, and they snap. Using a regular screwdriver on stainless hardware will allow carbon to transfer to the stainless, and cause rust.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:18

Tony Meola wrote:

I originally bought mine when I purchased boat as it was cheap and quick. After a few years I went for something better....a ladder that fit into brackets. Paid a good deal of money for it, lots of time fitting it to boat and I had nothing but trouble as people could not climb up it.
Still had the foldable one in the engine compartment so I pulled that one out and that was the ladder of choice.
My original ladder developed a broken bottom rung (thats a nice way of saying it couldn't handle my fat arse) and the Plastic covering the hooks started to rip open...I started looking for a new rung and new covering till I just figured out it was better to just buy a new ladder.

Leaving with the ladder has happened....but where we go to swim we have a pretty good current moving so I tie off the ladder before we leave the boat...so I just hear it knocking as we start to move.

Now Bait pots I have lost more then I'd like to say...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:18

jp the boat drift to beam with the three rod holders to one side while sharking very useful and trolling two rod holders dedicated for outriggers on each side leave only one facing stern . you have 10 ' on gunwale from outriggers back why not have three i wish i had four.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:21

good point mike i also have rust forming on ss scupper screws.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Mar 13th, '12, 13:47

JP, Rod holders laid out like yours with the addition of one center in the transom. Chair is gone, outriggers are off. Maybe I'm going a bit minimalist but with 40+ years of holes I want that clean look.

While this is a great start to getting the boat where I want it I've still got 27 yr old 454s so setting out my Marlin spread with a center rigger is way far off, which I'm not sure is the end goal or if there is one.

This really shouldn't be my big project on the boat right now I realize that but that sword pulpit was the can of worms. Will be back to the basic mechanical and electrical issues and try to keep the old dog going.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Mar 13th, '12, 14:52

When I look at this thread and think back to the 7+ years of updating Tailhook, I think we all need to go to meetings and say:

"Hi, my name is Tom and I'm a Bertramholic."

Peter, I can't tell you the number of times I said enough is enough, I'm just going to fish the boat for a while, no more upgrades/modifications. Then the sawzall or grinder came out - and the next updating began.

My drug of choice was and is a Bertram 31. It is definitely an addiction.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Mar 13th, '12, 14:52

Jp I say essential with the accepted practice of three rods for shark fishing one long one medium and one short with a pitch bait in the cockpit.the captain turns the rudders to make the drift from beam and but

a couple of sharpies sometimes use a flat line off mid ship cleat if wind is a problem.the 51 Bertram driives me crazy with two rod holders on each side the rod in the transom acts like a guillotine across the cockpit .what is your secret?

bertram31.com

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