Sync Solution?

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Feb 18th, '12, 12:25

Friends-
Instead of lying down and letting it pass, I succumb to a wave of ambition.
For the two seasons Iâ€™ve owned AXE (1971 31 FBC with 1992 454 Crusaders) Iâ€™ve struggled with properly syncing the engines. With an open bridge, heading upwind into any breeze the engine noise isnâ€™t enough for me to hear and sync by ear. Also, being a family boat, many family members like to have a turn driving and prove how good a lookout they are keeping by not noticing the warped, throbbing torture of un-syncâ€™d engines. Further, I reckon there may be a few pennies a mile in increased efficiency stayinâ€™ in sync.
So Iâ€™m considering the following options:
1- I have a used Glendinning sync which I can install but will need to purchase new throttle cables.
2- Buy and install a sync gauge like Beede Sync
3- Suck it up. Itâ€™s an opportunity for your sons to learn how far they can push Daddy and seeking efficiency when starting with 454s is like trying to teach Brittney Spears better parenting
Whaddya think?.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 18th, '12, 12:35

I have found that it can be tough to accomplish what you are trying to, but it can be done. Duck down out of the wind, and learn to feel the vibrations. Both are helpful.

Now, you coming to Mystic for the Rendezvous this summer????

:)

Dug

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 18th, '12, 13:13

It's been a long time since I've had my 440's but I had a synch system that was wired into a small black unit who's light would flutter when out of synch and glow evenly when in synch. It has no need for cable attachments.

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Feb 18th, '12, 18:17

Stephan, How bout digital aetna tachs? My dad has them on his 37, but he also has the glendenning sync. How deep do you want to dig???BH

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Feb 18th, '12, 19:10

Stephan-

Are your tachs that off? I could hear my 454s if I tried and could tell if they were in synch., and when I looked at the tachs they were virtually identical. I stuck to that--didn't want to add anything else (that I'd find a way to break).

John

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 18th, '12, 19:19

You will only need one cable, a short one for the slave engine from the sync.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » Feb 18th, '12, 23:45

Stephan,
Just watch your wake when the crowns of the first white water, nearest to the transom, are the same you should be in sync. Another way is like Dug says listen to engines. Or you can buy a Judson engine sync unit like Walter had I had one also, Guest also makes a three colored unit, the cheapest is after you run the boat for a while you will get to know when it's synced.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 19th, '12, 06:30

Teleflex Marine Code L 4 Stroke gas Engine Synchronizer

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 19th, '12, 14:59

Correct me if I am wrong here but.....don't all of these syncronizers just make sure the engines RPM's is the same?

And that is all they do....make both engines run exactly the same RPM.

hb

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 19th, '12, 16:41

Harry,

A TRUE synchronizer, such as Glendenning, operates on a slave/master principle. The master throttle is set to the desired RPM and the synchronizer keeps the slave at the same RPM as the preset master.

These little gas flashers and dials only give you a visual indication of each engine and you fiddle with the throttles individually until the unit is matched. Again only visually...

Br,

Patrick

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 19th, '12, 17:16

---------------or succumb to the fact there is no room on that Bertram dashboard and by using Twinscan tach. You would get a duel tach and synchronizer in one gauge . Obvious to the most absent minded captain or casual observer when engines are in sync.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 19th, '12, 17:21

How about sync gauges or lights for diesels? I had a Guest three light device with twin outboards and loved it!

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Feb 19th, '12, 17:32

Like Walter I had the Judson flasher on my B25 when it had gas motors and it worked great. I'm assuming the one Capt. Patrcik shows works on the same principle. As I recall it is counting the ignition pulses. Judson used to make one for diesels that needed a separate sender on the engine to create the pulse. Guess the a.c. tap on the alternator would produce a variable pulse too that a meter could count & compare.

Probably not cost effective to put in a full Glendenning auto sync on a small boat. Try training the kids to be out-of-sync detectors......get the engines grossly out of sync and let them listen, then see if you can bring them together and teach the kids to i.d. the "thump, thump, thump" of out of sync motors and how the "thumps" increase & decrease in frequency as you get closer or further away from the sweet spot. Some people can hear it and others simply cannot....to me its more of a "fee" thatn a sound.

UV

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 19th, '12, 17:32

Essentially the same gauge for diesel with lower rpm increments. ------ not cheap works directly off tach. Output off flywheel .

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 19th, '12, 18:06

Capt Pat wrote:A TRUE synchronizer, such as Glendenning, operates on a slave/master principle. The master throttle is set to the desired RPM and the synchronizer keeps the slave at the same RPM as the preset master.

But still, the "Syncronizer" is only making both "Engines" run the same RPM.

Where I'm going with this is back to the statement Pete made.....at least on our little boats.....watch the wake and like Vic said "Listen" to your boat.

If your running the IRM 220 gears one shaft is turning a different speed than the other (only slightly) so the difference in "Push" caused by shaft speed is compensated for in the prop pitch or cup.....which leaves some room for error....(may be very little) but still some error.

I am sure the Syncronizers are nice....but nothing beats being one with your machine.....listen look and feel what's going on.

Is there a Syncronizer that syncronizes by "Engine Load"....and not just RPM??

On gas engines, I guess "Engine Load" could be measured by engine Vaccuum????

hb

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 19th, '12, 18:25

Most are missing the posters point, he can't do it by ear and most of my customers couldn't either including many who say they can.
He already has the glen sync.
Twin Scan would be nice Bob but what does he do with an empty tach hole and mismatched gauges?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 19th, '12, 19:21

Good point Bruce assuming he wanted to do the right thing without ear factor put a small goof plate and one gauge.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Feb 19th, '12, 19:53

Harry - the ZF IRM 220As are one of the few gears that have exactly the same ratio in both forward & reverse so no need to have the props different.

We know some s**t, huh?

UV

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Feb 19th, '12, 20:10

If I could find my old Judson I would send it to him. It's a simple install (2 wires), fits on a B-31 bridge easily. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to make a fluttering light glow. Even his kids could do it, mine did.

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Feb 19th, '12, 21:48

Thanks guys for the good advice.

As much as I hate adding any equipment, I'm going to try the Glendinning. Thanks Bruce, I had assumed I needed a new shorter cable from the throttle to the sync. Keeping the same cable I have now and hooking it to the sync and then putting a short cable to the carb I think will let me just bypass the sync if it all goes wrong. Gotta find a dry spot for it. A lot of what I will get out of this will be that long sonorous humm while towing the furniture (wooden sailboats). I found that towing was a 1,200-1,500 rpm event and in a following sea the sailboats would surf a little and reduce the load on the engines and then bog. I'm hoping the Gelndinning unit will keep things smooth and not require fiddling with the sticks.

Can we expand on Harry's question? I've always thought of sync as strictly an RPM event. For the boats I was assuming that at the same RPM the difference in effective power output and was within nuthun.
Harry makes me think about airplanes where you square the RPM and then manage manifold pressure or torque. In doing so we get equal prop speed and power or find out something's wrong.

Sync'd engine speed makes for the smooth sound while matching power output (assuming the drag is symetrical) would make for better efficency? Perhaps I'm up after my bed time....

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 19th, '12, 22:10

on twin prop planes your dealing with variable pitch props something you don't have on boats. With altitude comes density changes and loading something boats don't deal with.
On boats it is an rpm thing 98% of the time.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 19th, '12, 23:58

here is the twin scan dual tach. with sync. red needles are led separate from back light blink when in trouble and tach is extremely accurate with readout on bottom ,just a glance and you can see when your inn sync. always,always white background with red needles same as race boat at 100 when you can`t be looking at gauges just the human eye telling you the needles don`t line up and in 5 seconds slams will start going off.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Feb 20th, '12, 07:11

Note:
Matching instruments are no longer stocked and are built at cost something like 300 bucks a piece from Joe at Floscan.

That is a very nice setup Bob. I installed many but the gauges never took off other than the twin Tachs and fuel flow.

Instruments required isolated ground senders, not included for the microprocessor based gauges to work properly.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Feb 20th, '12, 08:28

Pretty sure the Judson and Guest Snyc' s are gone from the market...

Personally I liked them...brought you right into the area, then listened and felt to get even closer and finally verified with Floscan or tweaked using Floscan as I'd find minute throttle position made absolutely no difference to RPM and Speed...But could save a gallon or two an hour...not much, but it adds up and gave me something else to do.

Sometimes hearing is just not an option with a half enclosure sitting directly over the motors.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Feb 20th, '12, 09:03

Thanks for the info. Bruce.i was not aware the gauges are no longer available.i was trying to explain when you are at the wheel you don't read the gauge like oil pressure you just glance down and make sure the two needles indicating port and starboard are horizontal facing each other in a straight line.does not matter what you are monitoring oil,water,voltage ,pressure,all needles face each other.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Feb 20th, '12, 09:14

Stephan,

My buddy Bill at New England Bow Thruster is a Glendenning dealer. Give him a call, tell him I sent you.

He will set you up with whatever you are in need of.

bill@newenglandbowthruster.com or (860) 625-1368

Good luck!

Dug

Gert van Leest · Post by **Gert van Leest** » Feb 20th, '12, 14:50

If you really want to spend some money,

go for the morse KE 4 controls , they have a kit for sync.

I build it in several yachts , and it work flawless !

http://www.go2marine.com/product/87485F ... h-kit.html

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Feb 20th, '12, 16:26

I think I have the Judson flasher I took off of my upper station if you want it for a $50 contribution to Capt. Pat. I replaced it with a Flowscan 9000 with the sync built in. Expensive, but nice. For a cheaper alternative I have a Faria synchronizer on a twin engine outboard that I really like. Very easy to use. it points to the slow side.

Other styles are available, but here is a picture of it.

http://faria-instruments.com/store/inde ... White%20SS

bertram31.com

Sync Solution?

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