Battery additives

[In Memory of Vicroy]

I have two 8-D batteries in my B31 - twin 6BTA 250 Cummins and a 6.5 KW Phasor genset plus about every gadget you can stuff into a B31. I keep the two batteries in parallel all the time since I have reliable shore power and an on-board charger. The 8-Ds last about 4 years with good maintaince. About 10 years or so ago Da Judge, who we here dubbed "The Prince of Potions" introduced me to The Pink Potion, a battery additive that is alleged to extend the life of lead acid batteries by preventing sulfation of the plates. Da Judge knows his potions, not only being a Texas state judge (retired now) but also a licensed aviation Airframe & Powerplant mechanic as well as pilot of his own Mooney aircraft....and of course, owns a Bertram.

He told me a friend of his owns and operates a large heavy equipment rental business and uses the Pink Potion in all his big equipment batteries, and battery life more than double. I started using the stuff in my 8-Ds and my small boat & generator batteries and the stuff works - first thing you notice is the water consumption is reduced to almost zero. At the time I started using it in about 2000 my 8-Ds were a couple of years old and by the time Hurricane Katrina put my 31 out of commission for a year in 2005 the batteries, now going on 8 years old, were still good to go. The year lay up in a destroyed shipyard with no shore power killed them and the yard put a pair of new "maintaince free" 8-Ds in just before I finally got the repaird boat back in June of 2006. So no way to add the Pink Potion. In the past few weeks, with the sealed batteries now over 5 years old, they died. I was planning to go to the Odyessy batteries for their long life but frankly, they just cost too much, would have required me to install a new charger, and do some re-wiring. And take a ton of time to put all that togheter. So last week I got a guy to help me remove the 175# 8-Ds and install new ones from O'Reilly Auto Parts, $159 a pop and its done. The Cummins love 'em and they have caps to add water & the Pink Potion. I'm hoping to get 8 years out of them.

On an 8-D size it takes two oz. per cell and on smaller batteries one oz per cell. The stuff is actually called Charge-It battery additive and I bought this batch online:

http://www.autobarn.net/chargeit32.html

The 32 oz is enough for two 8Ds and a couple of small batteries. Another tool that's handy for battery maintaince is a plastic watering can with the automatic valve that allows you to add distilled water without overfilling. Golf cart places sell them.

My 8-Ds are on a shelf outboard of the stb. engine and we used to have to hoist them over the enigne because of some plumbing and electrical that was in the way when I removed the fairing between the engine box and the gunnel. I recently cleaned all that up so the fairing comes right out and allows me to slide the 8-Ds out and back in. Huge savings in Chiropractor fees....

Anyway Faithful, ole Uncle Vic's words of wisdom on a rainy day in Coonassland. Po' boy's approach to battery life.

UV

[Tony Meola]

Save your back, Group 31's will spin those engines no problem. Just add a 3rd to act as the house battery.

[Dug]

Good to know! Thanks for sharing!

[IRGuy]

UV...

Happy Thanksgiving!

Just an FYI for you when you consider new 8D batteries. When I rebuilt my 12 volt system (documented in my writeup on the B33 forum) I found that 3 Group 34 batteries will fit in one 8D box. I was able to go from 2 8Ds to 6 Group 34s and owing to the fact that 2 Optima Group 34 AGM batteries can have more CCA than 1 8D I was able to create a third battery bank.. one for each engine and a new one for house power.

[Dug]

Frank,

I have one 8-D that I use for house power only. It lives a pretty tough life due to a number of factors.

Do you think it would be advantageous for me to convert the 8-D to 3 Group 34's? More capacity, and hence longer life?

What do you think?

Dug

[Carl]

UV- I remember the "Pink Potion". Used it in my 1st car. I didn't have a Pot to Piss In, was getting tired of Popping the Clutch to get it started. Decided to buy a new battery. When I got to the Local Auto Parts Store I browsed around a bit stumbling upon the "Pink Potion". I figured what the hell, it was cheaper then a battery and left more money in my pocket.

Brought it out to the car added abit to each cell, pushed car and Popped Clutch and I was off. Car didn't start the next try or even the try after, thought it was just a couple wasted bucks and lesson learned...but then the following day I got a few sluggish cranks and she started. Then as time went on she'd start like I had just bought a heavily used, less then adequate battery...but it cranked and started. Think I drove it for another year or so before I sold car.

I often think about looking for that Pink Potion when I get a few bad cranks...but then I just buy a new battery and plop it in. Maybe I'll just pick it up and add to good batteries and see what happens.

Thanks for reminder...gotta swing by Auto Store for Marvels Mystery Oil to Fog engines...I'll give a look and see if they sell "The Pink Potion"

Carl

[IRGuy]

Dug...

First.. let me apologize for this late response to your question. Between the Thanksgiving confusion and a miserable cold and almost constant cough I have been laid pretty low the past week or so. I am almost at the point where I can understand what an old timer told me years ago.. "If you cough up something with hair on it, swallow it quick"!

I am afraid there is no hard and fast answer I can provide to your question.. because the size alone does not indicate a particular battery's "power output". When I was researching batteries for my rebuild I found that a particular battery size and form factor (called in battery parlance a Group) can have different power outputs based on how the manufacturer builds the battery. Marine battery specs refer to several terms based on how much power they can deliver in a certain time, whether they are designed for engine starting (short high output bursts of power for engine starting) or deep cycle use (lower output rate but for longer periods of time for things such as house loads). Then, to complicate things there are "marine batteries" which are sort of in between, for use where you have only a limited space for batteries and you want to start engines but also need long term power available (such as in a smaller outboard boat).

The term I paid the most attention to was "cranking amps" for my starting batteries. This term refers to how many amps a battery can deliver before being discharged to a particular level, at a particular temperature. If you are looking for an engine starting battery you want the highest cranking amps rating possible within the space you have available. Conversely the total amp hour output was the major factor I looked at for my house batteries. It is worth noting here that some battery manufacturer’s warrantees can be voided if a starting battery is used as a house battery, and vice versa.

Then there is the issue of battery chemistry.. the traditional lead acid batteries are still available, and more or less are the cheapest. Gel cell batteries were very popular for several years but today have pretty much been replace by AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries. There are also some new batteries based on design and chemistry I am not familiar with.

This whole discussion is overshadowed by cost.. the higher the battery’s output the more lead is in the battery, hence a higher cost. Then there is the issue of weight and size. I do almost everything on my boat alone, so moving my two 150+/- pound 8D batteries around alone is really not something I want to do at my age. Then there is the issue of space.. I found that 3 Group 34 batteries could fit into the space occupied by a single 8D battery. I also found that two Optima Group 34 batteries could provide more power than one standard 8D, This allowed me to install 3 battery banks in the space where two 8Ds had been originally. By replacing each lead acid 8D battery with two Group 34 Optima starting batteries I had enough space left over for a third two battery bank, which I used for two Group 34 Optima “marine” batteries to provide generator starting as well as house power.

I hope I haven’t bored you with this long response, but battery selection is a complicated process.. at least for me it was. If you want to do a thorough analysis you have to go to the different manufacturer’s web sites and compare the specs. I know there are people who feel the traditional lead acid batteries are best, even though they require occasional maintenance by adding water. Others swear by something else. My feeling was that regardless of price the Optima AGM batteries were worth the extra money, were well regarded, and since they are not vented they are maintenance free, and they don’t off gas hydrogen or sulphuric acid vapors, neither of which you want in your engine room.

Please understand I am not a battery expert, and I have only touched the surface of this subject.

I did a writeup on my whole battery and 12 volt system rebuild. If you or anyone else wants a copy drop me an email and I will be happy to send you one. I am "IRGuy@aol.com".

[Peter]

the higher the battery’s output the more lead is in the battery, hence a higher cost

Well that certainly is part of the story. Good post.

More specificly what lead-acid bateries need for big cranking amps is lead surface area. So starting batteries have plates that are made sort of sponge-like to make lots of surface area for the reaction on smaller, lighter (less lead) plates.

As the chemistry does it thing the cells of these "sponges" can become clogged up over time, which reduces surface area available for the reaction. At that point the voltage stays up, but you can't get the amperage. This tendancy to clog is worsened if the battery is allowed to deep cycle, and this is the most common cause of premature death to lead acid batteries.... Therefore "Deep Cycle" lead acid batteries have plates that do not look like sponges, but are essentialy smooth.

The compromise is that a deep cycle battery has to be much bigger for the same cranking amps in order to get the surface area, but there are no sponge-like cells to get clogged.

So if you tend to keep your batteries topped off, as starting batteries usually are, you can go with the smaller lighter high output version. But if you often draw them pretty far down as is the case with house batteries, or batteries used for both starting and house, you should elect for the deep cycle variety.

If you opt for the smaller lighter version, be sure to keep them topped up over long lay ups. Remove them from the boat if necessary and put them in your basement or garage so you can charge them once a month or so. Don't count on the yard actually doing this even if they say they will and bill you for it.

Also solar panels that provide a trickle charge are getting pretty cheap. I got one from Harbor Freight and I keep it on the dash of a car I only drive occasionally where it has worked flawlessly to extend a marginal battery for several more months now. When I change the old battery out I'll contine to use the solar panel to keep the new battery topped, and I'm thinking seriously about adding a couple of panels to the boat. I will have to wire them around the battery switches.

As luck would have it the RV world uses deep cycle batteries too, and many are the same as their marine cousins (lead acid battery technology is pretty straight forward) but at a fraction of the cost. You can save a bundle if you know what you are looking for and why.

Lastly more than a few marginal lead acid batteries have been saved for a while by blasting a big charge into them and clearing out some of the clogged cells in the plates, but if you try this watch out for hydrogen gas boiling off, and don't expect miracles.

AGM and Gell Cells say they are forever and maintenance free, but they die too. However they have a big advantage that they can't spill. This makes them desierable in sail boats that may be subject to extreme knock downs. When you are dipping the spreaders in the drink after a spinnaker broach the last thing you need to worry about is if the battery just puked all its acid into the bilge! For the sort of use most of us expect from ourt Bertrams this isn't a problem. We might get bounced around a bit, but capsized is not cool !

The pink potion must somehow keep cells from clogging up. How I can't say, but it sounds like it works.

Peter

[Bruce]

A word of advice when paralleling one or more batteries together for higher capacities.

Multiple batteries on the same bank of a charger will often charge at different rates due to plate inconsistencies. This often leads to batteries being over and under charged in the same parallel bank leading to shorter battery life.

Each battery should have its own isolation charge. One of the biggest issues I saw over the years was severely reduced battery life because of 12v paralleling or series connections for 24 and 32 volt systems.

[IRGuy]

Bruce...

Thanks for the heads up.. I never heard of that before.

[Peter]

Multiple batteries on the same bank of a charger will often charge at different rates due to plate inconsistencies. This often leads to batteries being over and under charged in the same parallel bank leading to shorter battery life.

This is (was) a well known problem in stuff like cordless tools and radio controlled electric powered race cars using NiCad's.... mostly because the users are both drawing the current out at near to peak capacity and then trying to recharge the cells as fast as possible.

I hadn't previously heard about it for lead acid batteries, but it certainly makes sense.

In the NiCad situation the "solution" is to "match and balance the cells." Basicaly this means using cells of the same type and age and then discharging them all to the same level before starting a charge cycle.

As the state of charge in any cell in the pack changes the internal resistance of that cell also changes. If all cells in the pack are matched and balanced to the same state of charge they will then each take a charge current at the same rate. (or so the idea goes.) A pack can also be balanced by leaving it on a very low charge current for a longer time, like a trickle charge overnight. An "unbalanced" pack suffers from one or two cells having too little internal resistance compared to the others and so those cells take too much charge current resulting in overheating and failure of that cell. Or vice-versa when discharging at peak current capacity.

I have no first hand knowledge that any of this applies directly to lead acid banks paralleled together but it all makes sense.

In Bruce's post he speaks of "plate inconsistencies." These would most certainly exist between batteries of differing brands or types paralleled together as well as to batteries with differing ages or uses. In other words you can't expect your deep cycle house batteries to live happily on the same high current charger as your starting batteries. One will charge at an unbalanced rate to the other.

On the other hand it should be less of a problem, (but not necessarily totally eliminated) if the paralleled batteries were made up of matched sets and if the charging current or peak demand was always kept pretty low.

Thanks Bruce.

[Bruce]

Peter,
Good post. As an RC enthusiast, balancing and matching batteries is a way of life and using the li po bateries its even more of a concern on charging and fires. My son in laws good buddy burned his house down leaving a li po on charge when nobody was there.

Unfortunately even with like brand of batteries, manufacturing and material composition is not rocket science so manufacturing and material supply is 70% at best.

My best results in parallel setups were using Prevailer brand batteries. But that was years ago since I last used them and don't know if they are still around and during hard economic times, quality drops.

I have two Oddessy 27 series, pure lead plate technology, I grabbed from the shop when I shut down and use them in a parallel circuit for an inverter and also for testing on a wind generator. They are also kept up on a 3 stage charger and I now charge them independently as I have noticed a charge rate difference between the two.

There used to be a battery maker in WPB where I got to know the owner very well and saw how batteries are manufactured. Biggest problem was getting proper material composition from suppliers. The lifes blood of the battery.

If anyone loads they're own ammo using cast bullets, they'll understand the importance of proper materials and the performance of the end product.