Stubborn bolt

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 09:41

Crankshaft pulley bolt on a 40 (+)? year old detroit...cannot budge it

It's been bathing in Corrosion X for the last few days, I've tried hitting it with a torch, bumping with a hammer, and I'm using a 24" breaker bar...nada

any ideas?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 15th, '11, 09:44

Sure it's not a left hand thread?

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 09:47

Pat, that thought has haunted me...no mention of that in the DD manual anywhere, and I've tried it both ways trying to break it free.

I got no problem looking like a goofball if it is a standard thing that all pulley bolts are left handed....first time I've torn an engine all the way down.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 15th, '11, 10:36

Ricky,

From what I could find, the DDs can be either right or left hand running, (counter rotating), so the bolt could be either right or left hand thread depending on the rotation of the engine. A right hand rotation engine should have a left hand thread.

I also noticed a couple of references to instances where Locktite had been used, making the job even more difficult.

Call John Weatley at Florida Marine Tech, 561-844-7007. If anybody knows, he does. Be sure to have your serial number on hand... Say "hi" to him for me.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 10:40

Great info Capt. Pat, thanks so much...I'll call him now.

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Nov 15th, '11, 11:57

Maybe stupid idea but would the fan blades on the alternator be a giveaway?

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 12:01

Makes sense to me Mark...

Pat, called and John was out, but Doc was kind enough to share some thoughts...right hand thread

Manual has the torque at 300 ft/lbs also, so that's going for me too

Fun in the shop...

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 15th, '11, 12:34

I am pretty sure its right hand threads......impact wrench will be the best thing to use if you have access to one......try to find an electric impact

Be careful with the torch.....don't over do it.....its a Grade 8 bolt as I remember.

hb

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 15th, '11, 15:58

If you don't have an impact use a length of pipe, a sturdy 6 point socket and a good breaker bar to put a lot of pressure on it. Hold the pressure and have someone else tap on the socket with a hammer. The tapping makes a huge difference as does torque applied over time. I removed some rusted bolts on a tractor this summer that my 3/4" impact wrench could not remove.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 16:03

Rawleigh, funny you should mention duration...I thought I had made a post earlier regarding that, but seem to have misplaced it.

I've got a nice 2' long piece of pipe that I can use to extend the breaker bar, and I can reach the bolt head while standing (partially) on the bar and whack at the bolt...looks funny, but so far, no dice.

I've got the air version impact wrench, and I've been whacking with that also.

Regarding duration, I set a jack under neath the breaker bar last night and jacked the engine front almost off the ground...nada

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 15th, '11, 16:12

Put that jack back under there , pump it up good and then tap on the side of the socket with the hammer up close to the pulley. You may need a punch to do that. I assume that you are not rebuilding the engine, so a good heating cherry red would be out of the question? Don't take this wrong, but I assume also that there is no staking or lock washer with a tab bend over tab on it.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 16:15

Wouldn't begin to take anything wrong! No lock washer...

Yep, I am rebuilding it...so I'm trying to be carefull (as much as possible)

I'll give the punch a shot

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 15th, '11, 16:24

Rick

Get a Tire Service Truck Guy to bring his 1" impact and get after it with that.....I promise....bleed, blister or bust.....something is gonna move.

Like Rawleigh said. hitting with a hammer while under pressure works

Another hammer trick is to use a sledge hammer to hit directly on the head of the bolt.....and I mean knock the snot out of it.....more than once....then apply the socket and pull handle......but don't know what that may do to the crankshaft and thrust washers further down the line.

If you using a 1/2" impact wrench and 1/2" drive pull handle.....your almost whistling in the wind......300 FT LBs after running for years ain't light stuff......as you have already figured out.

hb

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 15th, '11, 16:31

Thanks Harry,

I kinda figured out I didn't have enough machine to do the job, I just wasn't sure what to look for...at least now I don't feel like such a wuss...

I really wanted to do the rebuild on a stand, but if I can't get this thing loose, I'll just do an in frame.

Thanks for all the responses folks.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 15th, '11, 17:39

Ricky

Is this engine in a truck or heavy equipment???? I was thinking marine...

randall · Post by **randall** » Nov 15th, '11, 18:36

i have an 8 foot long, 1/4 inch wall, square inch and a quarter hollow bar. so far it has never failed except when it snaps the bolt head off. heat... PT blaster...heat ...and torque. and care...you have to sneak up on it.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Nov 15th, '11, 19:15

Is this engine in a truck or heavy equipment???? I was thinking marine...

ssshhhhhh! In a Haterass....

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 15th, '11, 19:27

Patrick wrote:ssshhhhhh! In a Haterass....

OPPPS! ! ! !! Sorry

I read "In Frame" somewhere.....and thought it may not be marine.....

hb

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Nov 15th, '11, 20:19

Ricky, ZEP 45 is amazingstuff on locked up bolts...heat is #2, biggest impact gun #3, and IF you break it drill it then ez out...try the heat on the housing not the bolt, expand the housing and keep the bolt cooler..BH

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Nov 15th, '11, 21:05

Ricky,
I've had good luck with lowering the temp of the bolt and heating the dampner around bolt, with pipe. Also with a 1" impact gun with the air turned up past 110 psi and a 1/2" hose to compressor, don't use 3/8" for the big guns- they have to have volume. Here's the stuff to lower bolt temp, works great on exhaust systems too!
http://www.wemoto.com/parts/picture/HL-993295/

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 15th, '11, 22:03

Rocky
That Freeze and Release is new to me.....I did not know that was available in a rattle can.....

My dermatologist uses something like that for burning off PreCancers at $100 a pop.....uhmmmmmm......

Wonder what else that can be used for......Cryogenics on knife blades may be????

hb

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Nov 15th, '11, 22:33

Yeah Harry, sounds strangely familiar doesn't it? This stuff was actually demonstrated to me. I couldn't believe the exhaust bolt I challenged him to loosen freed up!

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Nov 15th, '11, 22:41

A buddy told me he uses Dr.Scholls freeze Away to cool down bolts to remove them. I have not tryed but he has told me it works great.

http://www.drscholls.com/drscholls/wart ... zeaway.jsp

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 15th, '11, 23:01

Does not look like the Freeze release is sold in the US. The pricing is in Pounds Sterling.

Like Rawleigh said, get the jack out. We used a jack on a guys prop nut one time. Bolt was stubborn, almost picked up the stern end of the boat but the nut finally moved. Just take your time.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Nov 16th, '11, 01:15

Sorry Tony, wrong site but this is it, lots of places can get the stuff and it does work!
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LOCTIT ... _sku=3EPR5

pacific marlin · Post by **pacific marlin** » Nov 16th, '11, 04:38

I read the other day, on a golf buggy site,that a 50/50 mix of atf and acetone will shift anything.?
Havn't tried it yet but would be interested to find out.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 16th, '11, 08:06

Great info folks...I've taken notes to put in the shop for the next time I'm stuck like this.

It's actually a 2-71 that's part of a generator pulled from an old RR refer car. You can buy them completely re-furbed, but I thought I'd give it a shot. 24 kW to use at the house should the need arise.

I think I'll just do it in frame and use a lift to get to things if I need to...awkward, but I think I'm approaching "the enemy of good is better."

(psssstt....Pat, I got the hardware for working on these things b/c I can't find a decent DD mechanic to work on the Hatt and I'll be damned if I pay the $$ wanted for half-assed rebuilds when all I've got to do is cut a hole and bring them to the house)

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 16th, '11, 08:13

Ricky wrote:It's actually a 2-71 that's part of a generator pulled from an old RR refer car.

Uhmmmm.......I want one! ! ! ! Where do you find um!!

I think the Detroits are inexpensive to rebuild......

hb

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 16th, '11, 08:24

Harry, here is one source:

http://www.affordablepower.com/

and another:

http://www.emerson2-71gm.com/index.html

I went through Emerson/Matkin and got a price on an "as is", and bought all the rebuild parts through them as well.

Full disclosure: Having spent a nice chunk of $$ with them, I'll not work with them again, due to a "falling out" we'll say, on our last interaction. However, they do have everything you would need.

There is also one on e-bay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/E-M-PACKAGED-A- ... 2c5991f99c

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 16th, '11, 08:42

I use a 6 foot heavy wall pipe and a 3/4 drive breaker bar. I broke a Snap on 1/2 to 3/4 impact adapter on that tractor job. It was a 23mm bolt and i only had that size 6 point in 1/2" drive. i had used that adapter for years on my 3/4" Aircat impact gun, but the 6 foot pipe was too much for it!! BTW the impact gun at 1200 foot pounds would not touch it.would not touch it!

jrhaszard · Post by **jrhaszard** » Nov 16th, '11, 10:07

On the subject of generators,I have a 6.5 kw Onan gasoline genset from an old motorhome.It has only 400 hours and runs fine.The electric company installed a device similar to a transfer switch on the house meter.The propane company says they will hook up a quick disconnect and will make sure my 500 gallon in-ground propane tank is topped off prior to any approaching hurricaine or snowstorm.I live in a rural area and trees frequently drop across the lines all over the Northern Neck leaving us without power for long periods.

I bought a carburettor for this genset that allows it to be run on both gasoline and propane.In cold weather it is to be started on gasoline.allowed to warm up and then switched to the propane mode.At least that is the plan. I have been told running on propane will destroy the valves and that the Schwanns trucks suffered this fate. Does anyone know anything about this.My source was possibly well intentioned but not not necessarily knowledgeable. Thanks.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Nov 16th, '11, 10:37

I bought an antique Studebaker once with frozen engine. Removed oil pan and raised the engine and car with a jack under one rising piston by putting it on the crank. Pulled the plugs and pour Marvel Mystery oil down all cylinders. Several day later the car was back on the floor and the engine free. Didn't even burn oil! Beat hell out of beating myself up with frustrating breaker bars and impact wrenches.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Nov 16th, '11, 10:45

I'm constantly amazed at how little effort it take to apply a dab of anti-seize to nuts and bolts that are intended for use in 'adverse' conditions........yet no one uses it.

I have several types in stock at all times......

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 16th, '11, 10:47

Mike, I've been wondering about that....does the placement of something on the threads of a bolt/nut that has to be torqued to a certain value, affect the reading?

I realize the "reading" would be the same, but would it be maintained?

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Nov 16th, '11, 11:01

The short answer is that you should torque as normal, and don't give it another thought.

The (partial) long answer is that since you're now adding material which will be 'in there', the same torque value that you used before will now put a little more stress on the components. But since recommended torque values are no where near the failure point of those components, you shouldn't worry about it.

And no......things won't come lose because of the anti-seize.

Torque to spec. Use the correct anti-seize. There are some that are made specifically for marine use.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 16th, '11, 11:04

Thanks...that thought has pestered me for quite a while

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 16th, '11, 11:37

Some torque specs call for lubricating the fastener, some do not. It does make a difference to the final torque value at the threads.

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Nov 16th, '11, 16:47

There are wet and dry torque specs. I have them somewhere but can't find them right now. I've had good luck using slug wrenches to brake loose frozen bolts, much safer than hanging on a 6' pipe.

RussP

Bruce Sweet · Post by **Bruce Sweet** » Nov 19th, '11, 15:04

You may have already succeeded in busting that loose but if not you could try this method which i have used countless times on everything from 1/4" to 2 1/2" shaft coupling bolts.
Heat the bolt or nut to cherry red and then apply pure parrafin [ the kind you use for canning, you can buy it any grocery store or hardware store]. the wax penetrates down into the threads as it becomes thinner than water. wa-la, the stuck part becomes unstuck.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Nov 19th, '11, 20:44

An old-timer (to me) working on an antique launch restoration once told me that an old timer (to him) said oil of wnitergreen and a couple of days frees the toughest stuff. He used it on a totally siezed engine (submerged and left to sit for years) and it worked!

I've never tried it, but you get it (or used to get ) from a pharmacy.

Peter

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Nov 21st, '11, 13:32

Bruce: I have found that toilet bowl ring wax (preferably unused) work well for that technique. I was worried about the seal, but since he is rebuilding heating it red hot is a valid idea.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 21st, '11, 13:36

Top end...tried getting the pistons out late yesterday, they and the liners are the next hurdle.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Nov 23rd, '11, 22:11

Ricky did you ever get that pesky bolt free? Curious about what broke it if you did!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Nov 24th, '11, 11:27

mike ohlstein wrote:The short answer is that you should torque as normal, and don't give it another thought.

The (partial) long answer is that since you're now adding material which will be 'in there', the same torque value that you used before will now put a little more stress on the components. But since recommended torque values are no where near the failure point of those components, you shouldn't worry about it.

It don't work that way. If spec calls out a Dry Torque Value, it means Dry, No Lube, No Anitisieze. The value is not based on the joint failing but the properties of the joint, assembly, bolt stretch etc. Some fasteners are required to stretch to a certain degree, but not beyond the Dry Value Torque rating is supposed to place the fastener at that specific point. Add a lube, reduce fri tion and you"ll over tighten, over stretch. Will the bolt break...doubt it, pull threads out of mating part...again doubt it. I'm not an engineer so can't tell you what will happen.... But if your loading the ....

Try this, torque a bolt dry to spec. Mark location of bolt head. Now put Ani- seize on threads and torque to same value. You will see a difference. If that difference don't make a difference to you...why even bother using a torque wrench. We have a Yard Mechanic that doesn't even need one of those things to torque down Head Bolts... He's just that good. If you don't believe me just ask him. I won't let him work on my boat though.

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 28th, '11, 11:53

Rocky, No...I gave up on that. I needed it off to mount the engine on a stand, but figured "the juice wasn't worth the sqeeze" since I was only doing the head/pistons/liners.

Now if I could just get the liners out!

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 28th, '11, 15:27

Rick
If you cannot get your hands on a "liner puller" you can do this and for sure they will come out.

If the pistons have already been removed.......
Use wet rags to stuff down into the bottom of the cylinder
If the pistons have not been removed
just put rags into the "Scavaging Ports" .......then run 8 or 10 weld beads up the walls of the cylinder. The welding will shrink the liner away from the block and make it easy to remove. More than likely its tight above the "Scavaging Ports" and not so much so below the Ports.

Obviously the rags are to keep weld splatter off of the crank and confined to the cylinder.

From there if the pistons are still in the engine you can cut a bolt just long enough to bridge across the cylinder and into the "Scavaging ports" (but not so long that it will hit the cylinder block bore) then put a socket on the front bolt (the one that you have been trying to remove) and turn the crank....the piston will start coming up and will hit the "Cross Bolt" then use some leverage on a pull handle to push the liner out.

Obviously use your judgment as to how much leverage to put on the bar so as not to damage other engine components. This method is aimed more at the 53 series with "Wet Liners" rather than the 71....but I know that it will work if you "Shrink the liner" first.

hb

Rickysa · Post by **Rickysa** » Nov 28th, '11, 15:50

Harry, that is a great idea...(pistons are out)

This past weekend I borrowed a steel "jig" and welded up a piece that covered the edges of the liner...32mm nut on top and the thing was just as sticky as the dang pulley bolt...wound up twisting the steel jig and no budging at all.

Learning as I go......

Thanks

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 28th, '11, 17:18

Ricky,
Thanks for the slight chuckle as I was perusing this thread. Having done this stuff for 30 years, I always get a smile when the neubs get to wrenching.

You'll get a kick outta this one, reversed on me.

A buddy called up a few months back complaining of a bad tooth ache but being the weekend he couldn't find an open dentist. I told him I could tell him how to make it better till Monday and he asked how.

I said its an infection under the tooth pressing on the nerve and you have to relieve the pressure. Take some ice and numb your gum. Get a sewing needle and sterilize with some spirits and take the needle and insert it between the tooth and gum and work its way down till you hit the pocket of infection.

I could tell he was turning green on the phone so he hung up. He called a few hours later to say it worked. After inserting the needle the pocket of infection worked up the side of his gum and when he pushed on it it popped out and relived the pain. It was sore, but none of that I woke up next to a guy dressed as a girl pain.

Now its your turn to chuckle.

Terry Frank · Post by **Terry Frank** » Nov 28th, '11, 21:30

I'm the last person that should say this this but "welcome back" Bruce.

Terry

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Nov 28th, '11, 22:05

Bruce wrote:Having done this stuff for 30 years, I always get a smile when the neubs get to wrenching.

Bruce, do you remember the first time you ever rolled up your sleeves and jumped feet first right into an engine rebuild??

I can feel Ricks excitement......I still get that way on my projects.....and Bruce, I'll bet you do to......its in our blood.

Keep it going Rick.....the gratification at the end of this project will far out weigh any aggreviation and frustration.

hb

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