Thanks to Brews Bucket

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 18th, '11, 07:33

Coming home yesterday with my parents, wife, son, niece and nephew my starboard motor decided to kick out at 20 knots. I was about a mile from the river I keep the boat on and another mile and a half to the dock.

Thanks to brews advice, since I don't have the oversized rudders I keep a 5 gallon lowes bucket rigged up with some line. To date it's functioned as a garbage pale, salt water wash down, trolling valve and cleaning pale.

Ran the bucket off the port midship cleat and it made steering back to the dock very manageable. Docking wasn't fun but I didn't hit anything.

Not feeling so good about the motor as I couldn't get it running again but in these types of situations getting home safe is all that really matters. Let's hope I can get her running and in shape to make the trip to Greenport.

Thanks Brew!

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jul 18th, '11, 11:24

You are welcome.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jul 18th, '11, 12:10

Does it turn over, or is it ethanoled.....?

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Jul 18th, '11, 12:24

What Mike asked, I had thought, but sat in silence -- hoping it isn't!!!!

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 18th, '11, 12:56

It is definitely ethanoled. It cranks but doesn't run, it's been an ongoing issue but I think this is it. Sounds like it's not getting fuel I'm hoping it's not catastrophic.

This happened once before and simply went away. My guess is with a bit of a lumpy ride yesterday some of that gummed up crap logged itself somewhere blocking the flow of fuel. I posted a similar issue a few months ago, it just went away.

Again I have no idea what I'm talking about so take my comments with a tbsp of salt.

Port motor has already been rebuilt, new tank and new fuel lines. When I bought the boat I knew the starboard motor was next was just keeping my fingers crossed to get a season out of it. Thought about having it rebuilt a month ago so I'd be ready for greenport. Decided to roll the dice and it doesn't seem to be working out.

Looks like I may be driving out to greenport this year.

Ed Curry · Post by **Ed Curry** » Jul 18th, '11, 13:19

I've been having all sorts of problems with carburetors this year. I've noticed a white powder residue remains when the gas evaporates and its thick enough to clog the passages. Filter changes, gas additives and occasional carburetor rebuilds have been my remedy this year.
The carburetor problems happened to various degrees on three different engines, and a weedwacker and two generators. The diaphragm for the weedwacker fuel pump was brittle and cracked. Never saw that before.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 18th, '11, 13:38

Ed,

I was hoping you were gonna take me up on the offer to take the ride to greenport. Maybe next year.

As you know this rebuild was in the plans anyway but the timing stinks! With about 40 hours on the port rebuild I was just starting to feel good about how that motor was running.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jul 18th, '11, 15:16

Whoa, Nellie.....there are a lot of two bit things that make gas motors not run other than needing a "rebuild".....air, gas, spark, etc all need to happen....that's I guess why Mike asked if it turns over - if it spins it can me make to run, maybe not great, but run....first start with seeing if she'll spark....then go from there.

UV

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 18th, '11, 15:48

I will preface by saying I have very little knowledge on the subject.

What I do know is that I have 2 1985 454s that until last year were being run off the old fiberglass tank. Both had over 2200 hours. The port motor was rebuilt just prior to me buying the boat, along with a new tank and fuel lines.

The surveyor, when I bought the boat, along with the mechanic who rebuilt the port motor both recommended that I have the starboard motor "rebuilt" the concern is that the engine is going to sieze up from the black goo ethanol build up in the cylinders.

My simple understanding is that by boring the cylinders and replacing the pistons and rings will "clean out the block". This is what was done to the port engine and it is now running nicely. Was planning on holding off until the fall and doing it ahead of the problem.

I really don't know if this is the cause of my current issue or not it could be something simple but at some point "i feel" (read as my uninformed opinion) the ethanol issue is going to get me if I don't have the motor rebuilt and I'd rather have it done then have to drag home on one motor from Greenport or 30 miles out in the ocean. Or have the motor seize up and chance it not being worth rebuilding.

Does that make sense or am I way off base?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 18th, '11, 16:03

It does turn over.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jul 18th, '11, 16:17

Pete, your thinking is flawed in that the goo problem has been seen to first cause problems in the valve train causing the valves to stick either open or shut and usually bending the push rods. Or gumming up the carbs so the motor won't get gas. Worn cylinders and piston rings will almost never cause a motor to just plain ole "not run". If it spins and has compression - even pretty low or uneven compression - it can be made to run with a properly timed spark igniting some gas.

Before you throw away the rest of your already short season, get a good mechanic (who has no interest in a "rebuild", i.e., an independent guy) to come to your boat and check out the offending motor and get it running.

Rebuild (or buy a short block assembly) in the winter.

UV

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 18th, '11, 16:42

That means it's not seized. You also said you were running at 20 kts when it suddenly stopped. Not ethanol sounding. Piece of crap in the carburetor? Possible. Easy check out. Take off the flame arrestor. Pump your throttle a few times while looking in the throat. Fuel coming through? Fuel line not clogged. Put the flame arrestor on loosely and crank. Not firing? It's probably electrical. No fuel coming up when you pump your throttle? Spray some ether in your flame arrestor or pour a bit of fuel from a cup onto the throat. Put the flame arrestor back on, crank. If she fires it's probably not electrical but sudden fuel starvation. If it doesn't, check for lack of spark. Remove an easy access plug, ground it on the block and crank. No spark-electrical, good spark, probably not electrical. The suddeness of the failure from fuel could be a torn diaphragm in your fuel pump (ethanol could compromise it easily), massive carburetor failure or simply a very clogged fuel filter. Electrically, I'd switch coils from the other engine. If she fires and runs, Coil suddenly died...shit happens...easy do it yourself replacement. Remove distributor cap and look to see if your points or condenser haven't loosened up or fallen off. Bet it's something (hopefully) stupidly simple that won't stop you from running to Greenport.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Jul 18th, '11, 16:49

just a thought, a lot of people forget theres a small fuel filter on the carb as well as the main line fuel filter, just my 2 cents worth a look

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 18th, '11, 20:46

Peter

What everyone said. Idon't think you need a rebuild. Trust, me, at 20 knots, if it was mechanical you would have heard all sorts of noise. Swalling a valve, cracking a crank shaft ect, does not come quitely and not without a lot of smoke out the exhaust.

Sounds more electrical or fuel related. When we had gas I had one engine just quit. Fuel pump just died. Strange feeling when all of a sudden the boat turns hard left.

Like they said get a good mechanic who can get you up and running in a day or two.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jul 18th, '11, 22:51

Peter,

If you want the boat to run right, please call Pat Dickson. 516-817-9701

Tell him that I sent you.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 19th, '11, 06:15

Thanks for the input guys. Mechanic will be down there today, mike thanks for the recommendation I will have your guy down to assess the general condition of the motor.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 19th, '11, 06:16

Peter,
Have it checked as Mike said...rely on the words of a good mechanic.

My two motors where stricken by Ethanol very early on, before we knew it was Ethanol. Both motors I managed to keep going for what amounted to three seasons. I bought Push Rods by the box and would change out a push rod during a fishing trip if need be...it sucked but I kept them running. Three seasons with the goo, that's how long till I figured out it was ethanol and changed the tank.

After I changed the tank it still took a bit of time for the motors to get back up to there original performance....The gooo went from a Tar to a Hard Black crud to a brittle rock that just flaked off....I had some valves and parts hanging around my office for some time and it validated what I saw on the motors. Basically once I removed the ethanol/ resin mix the motors performance came back on their own.

This does not mean you do not need a rebuild...it just means just because you had the Ethanol Issue the motors "need" a rebuild.

I also never went from running 20 knots to a motor just crapping out...usually I'd be running and get a backfire followed by a miss or two indicating a bent rod from a hung up valve. Motor still ran till I shut it down myself

20 to zero...Ignition??? you got spark? How about Spark and Fuel....Spark, Fuel and Compression?

If it's not your area, get a good mechanic to come down and give you real answers instead of guessing and backseat answers (like mine)....I'm just saying just cause motor died at speed and the motor ingested ethanol some time back means it needs a rebuild. It may, it may not.

Good luck

randall · Post by **randall** » Jul 19th, '11, 07:33

if it has electronic ignition i would switch the modules. failure causes instant shut down.......it only took me a week to figure that one out ( but i went out twice with one engine). when i went to buy the replacement i asked how long they were good for. the guy said anywhere from 10 minutes to 10 years .....i said "give me two". sure enough 2 years later the other one crapped out and it was a 10 minute fix.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jul 19th, '11, 07:35

BTW....the engine can be ethanol goo flushed....its not pretty but it absolutely can be done.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 19th, '11, 07:52

I suspected but now by these opinions realize my current issue is likely not ethanol related. In response to Mikes earlier post I said the motor is "ethanoled" which I meant in the general sense that the motor had been run for some time off the old fiberglass tank with E10.

Sims post hits home as both the mechanic and surveyor stated I am at the point of the brittle stuff flaking off.

This motor still doesn't exceed approx 3300 rpms, while the other rebuilt motor has no problem getting to about 4300. That is in gear underway.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 19th, '11, 16:48

It was the ignition coil. Still going to call mikes guy tomorrow

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 19th, '11, 20:17

Coil failures are unpredictable and usually, as you experienced very inconvenient. Fortunately, they're a simple replacement. A coil and a set of points/condensers are good spares unless you have an electronic ignition...then a spare module is in order. You'll be OK to go to Greenport.
Hate black solid state components you can't fix.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 19th, '11, 21:11

Peter

Is the iginition solid state?

If it is, then an iginition eliminator would help you if it ever happens again. I need to look around. I have one somewhere. Really don't need it anymore with the Cummins.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 20th, '11, 08:06

It's not an electronic ignition.

I've lost a bit of confidence in making the long run to Greenport it's a 70 to 80 mile run one way. But the idea is back on the table.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jul 20th, '11, 08:30

Pete - this is all part of the shaking down process we have all been through. Don't get spooked just yet. Put an extra coil in the parts box and go to Greenport. You can count of the Faithful to jump in and help if you need it. Running the boat yourself is the way you get familiar with how she feels, sounds, smells, looks, etc. Took me several years to get where I had total confidence in my B31 even with diesels.

Glad you got the problem fixed and it was minor.

UV

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 20th, '11, 10:26

Hey guys feeling a bit better and I will explain why.

First I have to give Mike a big public THANK YOU for passing along his friend Pat Dickson's number.

I called Pat and we spent about 15 minutes, first me explaining everything I know about the motor, then he told me what I should be doing. I offered to pay him to come out do a leak down test and asses the motor but he didn't think it was necessary immediately.

I will explain a bit.....the motor runs, smokes a bit but I'm not losing oil. When I did the initial survey on the boat it had small props on it but at that time the motor turned 4900 rpms, while the rebuilt turned 5000. I have since put on a bigger set of props I got from Tony brought down my max to 4300 but soon after I've had trouble getting the questionable motor over 3500rpms. I've been hesitant in pushing and testing it so I generally run the boat at 2800 rpms.

Pat basically told me the same thing as the mechanic that's been servicing the boat. Likely losing compression in at least one cylinder, a valve job or rebuild is inevitable but the boat can be used and shouldn't be an immediate problem, if I take it easy and don't push it hard and keep checking the oil.

As for my mechanic and what he has said initially about the rebuild was that there is a local guy in lindenhurst who will bore the cylinders and clean the block, provide new pstons and rings for about $2000. Probably about 15 hours labor to pull the motor and get it back together plus misc parts. It could alternatively need a valve job or risers and a new exhaust wouldn't hurt but hopefully we can get away without it.

Essentially the same thing Pat (mikes guy) told me except we didn't get into the potential cost. The previous owner provided me a receipt from having the other motor rebuilt which was esentially sending the block out, new pistons and rings.

I may be leaving out or misunderstanding some details as my knowledge is so limited.

Best case scenario I spend about $3500 and keep my fingers crossed that the valves risers, exhaust and gears will hold up for a few years.

Really wish I had the kind of funds to repower to diesel but honestly if I did I would likely have been better off buying a boat already done.

In any case I do really appreciate everyone's advice and concern. I hope when I get to meet many of you in Greenport I come across a little less bone headed then I do in my posts.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 20th, '11, 10:44

It's just part of the process. You're no more boneheaded than any of us were when we got our first "real" boat. Ask questions, watch what's being done when you can, don't let anyone intimidate you. Most of us didn't have Bertram31.com for advice and help. Just as you know your flats boat inside and out, in time that's how you'll know your 31. Walter

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jul 20th, '11, 10:59

Never thank me for helping. It screws up my image as Mean Team Leader.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 20th, '11, 11:16

Pete,

If you wanna consider a "cheap upgrade" look into electronic ignition. It's like The perfect tuneup of an older system that just lasts forever. Mine are going on 18 years since I changed. Down side is like the coil, if it goes bad it needs to be replaced, no if ands or buts...so keep a spare.

Glad to hear it was just a Bad Coil.

As Walter said its the Break in, learn the boat process...takes awhile to figure it all out...with two motors it sometimes seems like an ongoing battle, but after awhile you'll know your boat well and have it all up to snuff.

Carl

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 20th, '11, 21:41

Peter

What ever you do, if you pull the engines take a good look at those risers. If they are five years old, just replace them. They are ready to go between 5 to 7 years. Not worth totally destroying the engine by getting water in it.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jul 21st, '11, 00:14

Peter
I may be wrong, but from what i am reading you just want to do the lower end of the motor, not the top end.

The guys can correct me if i am wrong, but i would think it be smart to do the heads and everything else while the motor is apart. The heads and intake have to come off anyway and there wont be many parts if everything is ok, i dont know maybe i am just used to breaking down and truck wiht 240k miles

I dont know alot about them but Petronix(i think) is a easy ignition upgrade for around 100 bucks(i think)

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jul 21st, '11, 08:49

Matt is correct that Petronix makes a good electronic conversion kit. Very simple to install, just double check that the wiring is correct before you fire it up the first time, otherwise you let the magic smoke out!! They can make a big difference with an older engine, especially when starting. they mount in side the distributor.

http://www.pertronix.com/

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 21st, '11, 09:38

Thanks for the advice guys, I will add it to my list.

Taking past advice from the faithful at this point I am simply waiting patiently with check book in hand waiting for things to break. At that point deciding if it should be a simple repair or upgrade in the process.

The next project is pretty easy replace all the screws in my headliner, when it was redone they used short screws that barley grab. A few waves and something is always coming down. Should keep me busy this weekend.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 21st, '11, 09:42

Use a small battery powered screwdriver or at least a racheted one. Makes working over your head (in this heat) a bit easier.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Jul 21st, '11, 09:47

Peter
I forgot one thing, I am Sure if UV could figure out how to get CX in the oil, it would clean your engine up nicely but since i dont think you can..
On older engines i have changed the oil and used a very heavy dose of marvel miracle oil, allwed them to run for a while and then changed it a agin with a lighter dose and drove it for a while, the changed it again. Seem to put alittle step back into them. May be worth a shot.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 21st, '11, 10:04

I'll be buying marvel tomorrow. Thanks

Walter thanks, your right with this heat the smallest task is brutal.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jul 21st, '11, 10:15

You can get CX in gallons....or 55 gallon drums. A half quart of it in a 5 quart gas motor would do wonders. Marvel Mystery Oil on steroids.

I ditto Walter's advice on the little electric screwdriver...I have a $18 Black & Decker that uses regular AA batteries and they last an amazingly long time & make working overhead a snap. Available at Home Depot or on tine. The batteries in the rechargable ones crap out in a year or so and pretty much cannot be replaced.

And all of us who own a boat need a good supply of stainless hardware and I've found this place to be about the least expensive:

http://www.boltdepot.com/Default.aspx

The 18-8 stainless is fine for most uses on the boat; the 316 is the best for stuff that is constantly exposed to salt water.

UV

Stephan · Post by **Stephan** » Jul 21st, '11, 10:24

Pete-
I went down the road of re-screwing the overhead... and then took it back down last winter to work on wiring....Some of the screws had already been increased in size and length. I took a 1/4 inch bit and drilled them out and then epoxied in a bung.
I did use a screw gun. If at all possible get one with a clutch. I set my Hitachi (Lowe's middle of the price range) clutch at a very low setting and it saved me from stripping the holes further, driving the fastener through the headliner and/or caming out the screw heads.
Stay cool.
Stephan

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 21st, '11, 21:31

Peter

You can also use a quart of Transmission fluid. It's an old trick.

Works wonders for cleaning up the engine. I believe it is cheaper than Marvel.

Had a sticky lifter once. The transmission fluid cleaned it right up. I then started adding a quart just before an oil change. Warm up good then change the oil.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jul 22nd, '11, 08:57

The CX for engines now is Sea Foam. The stuff works great. I mix it in my gas for all of my small engines, and if one starts running bad I disconnect the fuel line and stick it directly into the Sea Foam bottle. Let the engine run until it begins to run rough, which means it is running on straight Sea Foam and shut it down. Let it soak from 30 minutes to a couple of days, reconnect the fuel line and fire it up. It does wonders at cleaning out carbs!!.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 22nd, '11, 09:51

If your at the point where the bottom end is worn enough to justify an overhaul, unless a top end was just done, its complete madness not to do the top end and if the manifolds and risers are 4 years or older to replace them also.

Very rarely did I ever see a marine gas engine that had enough hours where the cylinders were oval'd to justify a bore.

Thats easy enough to confirm on the boat by removing a head and use an inside micrometer to measure the bore for out of round before you pull.

Also pulling an engine for a major repair like that without doing a cylinder leak down test to pin point the trouble and to garner information to make informed decisions is lazyness.

After all if its in the valves and the lower end is sound, why go to the expense of pulling the whole engine?

I hear that Mike on the weekends, volunteers for kitten rescue.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jul 22nd, '11, 10:24

I hear that Mike on the weekends, volunteers for kitten rescue". He uses them for bait.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 22nd, '11, 12:51

Bruce,

Thanks it is noted, hopefully I won't have to revisit the rebuild until the end of the season at that point I will follow your above advice closely.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 22nd, '11, 12:56

Vicroy wrote:You can get CX in gallons....or 55 gallon drums. A half quart of it in a 5 quart gas motor would do wonders. Marvel Mystery Oil on steroids.

I ditto Walter's advice on the little electric screwdriver...I have a $18 Black & Decker that uses regular AA batteries and they last an amazingly long time & make working overhead a snap. Available at Home Depot or on tine. The batteries in the rechargable ones crap out in a year or so and pretty much cannot be replaced

UV

Taking your advice I went to lowes and HD to buy a battery powered screw driver, of course only rechargeable. Found a black and decker that takes 4 AA batteries for $10 in target. Good idea for something to keep on the boat as I don't have a generator or shore power at the dock to recharge.

Where do I get CX? A google search is tough.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 22nd, '11, 13:14

Ok found the corrosion x website. 1gallon bucket and spray bottle? Is the aerosol ok to use on the engine?

55 gallon drum $3687.00

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Jul 22nd, '11, 13:19

pete
i think uv can send you up a case cheaper red or blue cans aerosol

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 22nd, '11, 20:32

Pete

You want the spray cans. Easier to work with. For the gallon, you need a WD 40 spray bottle, you know the plastic ones. Usually sell them at home depot. Then you cut the stuff with mineral spirits otherwise it is too thick to spray.

You can check with UV but I think he needs to ship a case so if some of the LI guys need some, you could wack it up between you.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 22nd, '11, 21:19

I'll take some

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Jul 23rd, '11, 06:07

Vic,

Let me know if this is true. If so I will bring a case to Greenport. More if others are interested?

Pete

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 23rd, '11, 22:31

Peter

Send Vic an email. I think he might be away for a couple of days.

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