Advice/Questions

Kenai1 · Post by **Kenai1** » Sep 28th, '10, 21:36

I am new to the site and this seems like such a helpful and resourceful place for current b31 owners and those looking to become owners. I am the second of the 2 and wanted some advice on a b31 that I am looking at now. We had a sea trial today as well as a surveyor check the boat out. From the survey I had a few concerns on what I am really getting involved with in addition to trying to determine a right number to offer.

My first and foremost concern are the engines which are Caterpillar 3116 300 hp ZF gears 2001 or 2002 engines with each about 3700 hours. I know each boat and engine is different but I was looking for general consensus on how long these engines might actually last or any feedback from people with experience with these engines?

Other things of concern the surveyor brought to my attention were the following:

-Small gas leak at manual primer on starboard engine.
-cracked hose going to port engine, salt water intake I think.
-plates and bearings at top of rudders completely rusted, and bearings
freezing
-gas tank sending unit rusted away.
-bonding plates and wires corroded and not attached in many places.

Again just looking for general idea of costs associated with these items. I do understand with a 30 year old boat there will be work involved but since many folks have blazed the trail before me I am just asking for some advice and feedback. Any advice is much appreciated and hopefully I will be more involved on this site as an owner.

Thanks and again any feedback or advice on something that I should be looking at more closely is greatly appreciated. thanks

MB

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 28th, '10, 21:51

Welcome

The 3116 are rare in a 31 Bert, hopefully Bruce will jump in and provide some insight into these engines. Some 31 had the 3208 Cats in them. In fact Fred Haas who is on the board has one with the 3208's.

You could also joinBoatdiesel.com and get a wealth of information about these engines.

Where is the boat located and what is the name of the boat. It is possible that one of us might know the boat and be able to share some information about it with you.

Good Luck and Welcome

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Sep 28th, '10, 22:01

Kenai wrote:Other things of concern the surveyor brought to my attention were the following:

-Small gas leak at manual primer on starboard engine.
-cracked hose going to port engine, salt water intake I think.
-plates and bearings at top of rudders completely rusted, and bearings
freezing
-gas tank sending unit rusted away.
-bonding plates and wires corroded and not attached in many places.

All of the above items are fairly inexpensive to repair or replace.....If you are a DIY guy the above list will make a good winter project....I don't see anything on the list that is of great concern.....just things you have to do to maintain any boat.

As far as the engines, I'm no expert but I would guess that with good maintaince the engines could go 10,000 hours. From my experience the most common thing that will destroy a marine engine is injestion of seawater into the exhaust.....I would certainly do a thorough inspection of the exhaust system......which could get expensive.

Good luck and welcome to the club

Harry

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 29th, '10, 06:43

I'll ditto what was said previous.

Sounds like routine maintained was ignored or put off a few seasons too many...it don't take long before one simple project becomes two, then three...

I know little about the 3116 motors. With big motors in a tight space...can you access all the items that need attention....if not it becomes an issue for you or your mechanic...AKA- expensive or left till next time which can get put off again and again.

Welcome.

Carl

FWHaas3 · Post by **FWHaas3** » Sep 29th, '10, 06:49

I can't tell you anything about 3116 Cats, but I love the 3208s. Only problem I have had in 9 years with the Cats is rusted out oil pans. Do the best you can to get a good look underneath the engines. Use a light and a mirror to check the bottom of the pans. It's not the worst problem in the world, but new pans from Cat are about $700 each these days.

Other than that, the only money I have spent on the motors is for starter rebuild, alternator rebuild and raw water pumps. I have never had any issues inside the motors.

Fred haas

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Sep 29th, '10, 07:37

The 3116 is an in-line 6 vs. the old 3208s which are V-8s, so a totally different engine. Early 3116s had some 'soft block' problems that were resolved. My take from reading about them on boatdiesel was that if they ran a thousand hours or so they were good for a long time. Cat quit making them and replaced them with the 3126.

I know of two B31s here in Louisiana with the 3116s, the Centurion out of Venice, La. owned by Dr. Brian Jordan - he replaced the original 3208s with the 3116s - and has had little reported problems. The other is owned by a fellow from the Houma, La. area (or maybe the Galiano, La. area?) who came to one of the UVIs at Port Eads, forget the names. Bad ass B31, sounded like a D-9 bulldozer and super fast.

The money is in the iron. The ZF gears are good gears, the motors are good motors. Rust and corrosion kills motors and gears. The gears have aluminum cases so only the external parts like shift levers rust. The engines will last as long as you own the boat if they are sound now. Get an INDEPENDENT (not thru a broker) engine survey for internal problems such as worn rings and bearings. The boat itself is pretty much bulletproof, nothing to go wrong other than minor crap....for example, the rusted rudder flange bearings are a $20 item at WW Grainger industrial supply.

But he money is in the iron, never forget that.

UV

Kenai1 · Post by **Kenai1** » Sep 29th, '10, 20:43

Thanks for the feedback and another reason this site is so great. I will definitely check out the boatdiesel.com for more info on the engines. If everything works out I will hopefully be sending pics.

thanks again

MB

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 29th, '10, 21:01

I can tell you one thing about the engine you should follow up on and that is the Sea Water pump. My sister just had a problem on her boat that has the same engine. The Sea Water pump is an integrel part of the engine. It bolts on and is gear driven. Last week while running they heard a strange noise next thing the water temp shot up. They shut the engine down before it over heated.

Had to call Cat and when the mechanic came out he said that the bearing on the pump had gone bad however, it appears that the gear that drives the pump must have been damaged. So they have to pull the top side and front of the engine off to repair. She doesn't have the full news yet, but the mechanic warned her that the Cam shaft could have been damaged.

As UV says, the enemy of good is better. Sounds like the pump is a little over engineered. Hell of a way to find your sea water pump has gone bad.

Kenai1 · Post by **Kenai1** » Oct 1st, '10, 21:17

OK so I had the boat surveyed and finally got the entire list of "issues". He has noted some as higher priority. Nothing alarming on the list but wanted to hear if anyone had horror stories from any of the issues listed. I know a lot of these are minor with lights and safety but was more concerned with corrosion issues etc...

1.) The aluminum window frames for the deckhouse windows are badly wasted by corrosion.
*2.) The rudder post upper support bearings are badly wasted by corrosion. Replacements needed.
*3.) The fuel tank level sending unit top-plate is badly corroded and ground wire is cut off.
4.) Vessel's ground bonding system wires are broken away from connected hardware at various points.
5.) All cockpit hatches have wet rotted plywood cores,
*6.) Port and starboard shaft log clamps are badly corroded and need replaced.
*7.) Aft bilge pump float switch not working.
8.) Wood side supports for the deck hatch between the engines are wet rotted.
9.) Vessel's trim tab system not working.
10.) Hynautic steering fluid reservoir tank leaking at air pressure pump shaft at top of tank (when pumped).
*11.) The bilge pump high water warning signal is not loud enough to be heard over the sound of the engines.
12.) Bow sprit is loose. Bowdeck safety railing is cracked and corroded at forward rail. Anchor rope chute cap missing.
*13.) Navigation lights not working. *No emergency signal devices (flares) onboard. 'Life jacket straps rotted.
*14.) Broken and now missing hose clamp at inboard side of starboard engine near seawater cooling pump.
*15.) Starboard engine fuel priming pump leaking diesel fuel.
*16.) Cracked hose clamp at port engine exhaust riser elbow. 'Port engine oil pressure sending unit seeping oil.
*17.) Starboard exhaust flapper missing.
*18.) Main cooling water intake hose for the port engine is worn, rotted and cracked.
*19.) The heat exchanger reservoir tank for the starboard engine appears to be leaking at corroded edge.
*20.) The portable fire extinguisher by the port engine box should be replaced (gauge shows low charge).
21.) Portside propeller has slightly bent blade tips.
22.) Survey clients were informed that both engines exhibited a condition commonly called "crankcase blow-by". This
usually indicates wear of one or more of the following: pistons, piston rings, cylinders. According to engine hour meters,
engines have nearly 4000 hours use each since new and have never had a major overhaul. Engines still appear to have
good compression and have the potential to run hundreds of more hours before overhaul if properly maintained.

Again any feedback is much appreciated and I feel like I am very close! This site has been such a great help in getting me there.

thanks again-

MB

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Oct 2nd, '10, 08:19

Sounds exactly like what you would expect from a 40 year old boat that someone lost interest in some time ago.

Nothing that time and money can't fix.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Oct 2nd, '10, 08:35

I hope you're getting a great price because I suspect a boat that seemingly has not been well taken care of at all may have a few more surprises for you once you climb into it. Otherwise keep looking.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Oct 2nd, '10, 09:14

Did you mention the price?

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Oct 2nd, '10, 09:40

The heat exchanger tank is an expensive part.
3116's are to keep in time. I would expect this boat needs a good mechanic to go over the timing and check the injectors. Lots of soot indicates she needs timing. 5000 hours is close to rebuild time.
Good luck

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Oct 2nd, '10, 13:04

Most everything mentioned are the fairly straight forward winter projects we have all taken on. Not cheap, yet not expensive if each is taken on here and there.

Wood rotting on a 40 year old boat...happens. Rip it out and replace.

Cockpit deck hatches--open them up replace rotted wood and re-glass or just buy a new deck.

Supports--pull out deck and replace with wood or what some of us have done replace with fiberglass supports

Window frames- you can go several routes- have new made, repair what you have, or if the front window glass it in.

The other items are little Chach-keys, or day projects at most.

Now the motors...I'd look into the leaking Heat Exchanger Corrosion and "Blow By".

Could be nothing more then a Slight Drip causing the Corrosion and the Blow-By may be nothing to worry about.

BUT...if it's more then nothing it can get pricey real fast. Not a deal breaker type of thing...I'd just need to know a little more information then what is given.

For me I'd like to hear if the amount of Blow-By is normal for an engine at 4000 hours and would normally continue to run without need of an overhaul till X number of hours. Obviously I'd be asking for an educated guess...but one base on a good amount of experience. Means more to me then "You got Blow By" as many motors do and to various degrees.

Kenai1 · Post by **Kenai1** » Oct 2nd, '10, 13:25

Asking 20k for the boat. Thanks for the feedback and I think a mechanic review is in order.

thanks-

MB

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Oct 2nd, '10, 13:36

Kenai1 wrote:Asking 20k for the boat. Thanks for the feedback and I think a mechanic review is in order.

thanks-

MB

Buy it. You can't even buy a 250HP Yamaha for 20K.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Oct 3rd, '10, 16:28

Ditto. Buy it, now. We will help you thru fixing her up.

UV

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 3rd, '10, 17:03

Buy it. Fix stuff as you use it. I got mine for 1500.$ Everything was shot. It would not go over 8 knots without overheating. I fixxed one thing than the next. I would go to the canyon and it took 10 hours to get there. On a three day trip it used 6 gals of oil. It changed the oil itself. But I had a Bertram 31. Its not perfect now but it "makes the trip". Not sexxy like the JP's or Bob L. Just needs some paint and another 100,000.$ and it would be perfect.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Oct 3rd, '10, 17:09

But it catches fish the way it is, doesn't it?

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Oct 3rd, '10, 17:11

brew
the biggest thing is she is reliable and will always get you home, ive been tru 10s and 12s with harvey next to me in his 31 taking it on the nose all the way from manasqaum inlet to jones, was a white knuckle ride but both boats came thru shinning, probably better then harv and i

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 3rd, '10, 17:20

Its the War Wagon. Run 140 miles offshore, fish for 3 days, Carry 20 70# tuna in 1,700. lbs of flake ice. Out fish boats that cost millions. And its 44 years old.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Oct 3rd, '10, 17:55

Its the greates thing ; after my son, that I have ever had. It catches fish like magic. I thought it was me for a long time but its the boat.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Oct 3rd, '10, 22:16

for 20 k buy it bout what i paid for mine with gas motors and similar repair list, and u already got diesels ,

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Oct 4th, '10, 08:47

Don't guess, now that we have the facts, I need to comment, but buy her.
To paraphrase Vic, We're here for you.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Oct 4th, '10, 11:45

If your struggling at 20K...you need to figure out what happens if a motor craps out on you. Not saying that it will, even new motors have issues.

But if your in the market for a 31, it sound like a deal.

I'd buy it with that survey...okay I'd still get an engine survey done too...just so I knew. But I can't see a survey coming back with anything that would put me off from the purchase.

Let us know.
Carl

Kenai1 · Post by **Kenai1** » Oct 16th, '10, 20:50

Bought and brought the boat home yesterday! Couldn't be more excited and I will post pics once I have a chance. Probably will become more of a regular on here as I begin working on the to-do list. Great boat and maiden voyage went off without a hitch.

Once again thanks for the feedback from everyone.

-MB

Kurt · Post by **Kurt** » Oct 16th, '10, 22:30

Just $.02...talking truck engines....not sure if this info transfers to marine blocks....
As a previous and current owner of semi's with both 3176 and c-12 cats. On the truck engines....the water pumps are gear driven along with the fuel and power steering pumps. Per a cat tech, during my first water pump replacement on the 3176....when they start to drip out of the weep hole on the bottom of the casting, replace them NOW.
If the seal goes that is between the pump and gear drive it will pump water into the crank case. The weep hole is supposed to be a "warning" that things are going to get bad real soon.
Just replaced the water pump on my reman cat c-12 after 180000 miles in about 2 years. It seems they go every couple of years if used daily.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Oct 17th, '10, 10:30

congrads!!! nothing like the first trip in her really makes you smile!
good luck with her, it only takes time and money! :) get the pics up we all want to see them!

bertram31.com

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