Fuel Pickup Screen - Remove or Leave in Place

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Aug 13th, '10, 19:50

Well the bad fuel demons finally got me good! I will spare you the gory details but I picked up a bad load of fuel over the July 4 weekend and I haven't been able to rid myself of problems since. I limped home on 2 offshore trips and stalled out in the inlet on one of them (that's a story in itself as I came close to ending up on the rocks). Anyway, when my tanks get to about 1/3 tank remaining I start to suck up whatever muck is in my tank. My problem is that the muck doesn't so much clog my fuel filters but rather is plugging my fuel pickup screen in the tank. I know this bacause I can get the engines to run fine by blowing back into my fuel lines into the tank. The problem is the stuff that I blow out of the screen goes back into the tank and comes back to clog again.

I know I have to pull the pickups and clean them. My question is "do i remove the screens from the pickups before I re-install them"? This would eliminate my problem of the screen clogging in the future (i think?) and direct any future muck to by my primary filters (Racor 900). Eventually, the all the stuff should clear out from the filtering provided by the engines. I am prepared to stock up on many spare elements.

What do you guys think? Good idea or bad? Part of me says that it makes sense, but part of me says that the screen has been OK for 42 years, leave well enough alone.

scot · Post by **scot** » Aug 13th, '10, 20:29

I hate to hear that Vince, fuel wows are a real pain in the butt.

I'm sure you will get various opinions, but if it were my boat I would take the screens off. Let the filters catch that stuff, at least they are easy to get to and change out. This is the point of installing a stagged filtration system.

After a few filter swaps you will be rid of the goo, and not be wondering "when" that last blob of mess is going to plug the screen in the tank.

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Aug 14th, '10, 06:19

I recently put in a new tank and was advised not to use the screens at the end of the pickups, 3 pickups ,lots of racor dependancy at sea, not wanting to wrench out a plugged screen in a storm

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Aug 14th, '10, 08:23

Vince,

Like you, I'm listening and learning from others; but isn't this a scenario where it would be worthwhile to pay someone to "polish" the fuel? I'm told that if done correctly, the process will systematically filter all the fuel in your tank to remove the debris and contaminates. Not that it matters (a clog is a clog), but is it gas or diesel?

Tommy

Al C · Post by **Al C** » Aug 14th, '10, 09:29

I had a similar problem when I bought my 31. Its a diesel boat that was laid up for several years and we did all the usual stuff like removing screens, polishing the fuel and still had to change the filters after every trip it seemed just to keep it running. Tried all the poisons and magnet gismos but in the end the only thing that worked was the filtering system that Tony Athens recommends. Its bigger than I'd like but I have not had a fuel problem since I installed it 4 years ago and only have changed the filters twice in that time.

http://sbmar.com/Products/SM-FF_Main.php

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 14th, '10, 10:45

Dad had a similar problem when he converted to Diesel. Tank was contaminated from the ethanol and started peeling crap from the tank even though he had it steam cleaned prior to putting in fresh fuel.

Long story short he first made up a portable fuel polishing unit consisting of a Pump with a pair of filters and a long Wand end to insert into tank and pull fuel from various parts of the tank... it helped but running moved the crud around thru the baffles and would clog the screens. So then he removed the screens...then the pickup tubes themselves got crudded up and he put the screens back on...although larger ones. After a year of playing around he finally got the tank free of crud...but he polished the tank for hours and hours days on end and pulled the Pickup tubes many times. He would also run with the polishing unit intake at the back bottom
of the tank.

If it where me..I'd have tank drained, cleaned and fuel polished before putting back or maybe a commercial polisher could do it without draining...but I'd bite the bullet and get it done...No fuel, No go, Not a good thing...as you already know.

My .02 cents

Ed Curry · Post by **Ed Curry** » Aug 14th, '10, 11:13

I agree with Sim about cleaning the tank. Taking the screen out will just move your clogging problem to a different filtration point as well as allowing larger debris to enter the fuel line which may cause a blockage that's harder to clear. Removing the crud from the tank eliminates all of your problems and the screen will become an afterthought for the next 42 years.

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Aug 14th, '10, 11:34

Had the exact pronlem two years in a row.. The first time I cleaned the screen Drained the tank .. The second time & removed the screen & had the fuel polished.. & added Racor 1000s in front of the racor 500s .. not a probleem for two year since.. The racor 500s stay spotless.
Wayne

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 14th, '10, 18:00

i took a differant approach; i removed the whole brass plate with pickup tube and screen. i then put the boat on the travelift very carefully tilted the boat bow up until every drop of fuel was at the rear of tank visiable from the plate .stuck comericial vacuum cleaner (diesel fuel soil never had gas in tank) made a new pickup tube with same screen density but deeper 1/4" off bottom .put diesel fuel under pressure then to clean wall. used diesel cylinder bore scope to check walls . put plate back on never had a problem , in other words i cleaned the tank BEFORE using it with new cummins instalation.never had a problem.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Aug 14th, '10, 20:25

Bob,

I never had a problem until July 5 of this year. I checked my tanks 3 years ago when I repowered. They were clean as a whistle. I wasn't going to take any chances with the new engines! I've never had even a hint of a problem in 12 years. Now I'v been battling this problem since early July.

I was finally able to pinpoint my problem as clogged pickups. My symptoms were intermittent loss of rpms while cruising. The engines would drop about 200 rpms and then pick back up after a few seconds. After trolling for any length of time I couldn't power up to get on plane. I limped home from one offshore trip (60 miles). When I changed the filters I noticed that they were not that dirty and there was no change in how she ran. Finally one day I decided to blow air back in the fuel lines and that completely solved the problem, but only temporarily until the screen crudded up again.

Anyway, I took the pickup out today and sure enoough it was loaded up with black crud. It was BAD! I can't beleive the engines could even run with that much crud. I took some pictures with my cell phone and I will post them when I figure how to get the pics from the phone to the computer. I removed the screen. I am going to go with a multi-stage filter setup. I am going to install one of Tony Athen's crud filters in front of my Racor 900 and see what happens. If you talk to Tony, he is pretty sold on the multi-filtration setup and its ablility to clean up some bad fuel issues using the engine's filtration system. It sounds like Ironman you are having success with this type of setup. Tony swears by it.

I'm going to start there. I bought a case of filters and am prepared to keep a close eye on things. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for all the input as always!

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Aug 14th, '10, 20:29

By the way, in 12 years I've never added anything to my fuel. After my problems started I suspected algae so I treated with Biocide. I am aware that the biocide probably killed the algae and created the crud. I just don't know right now how much of it is in my tank.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 14th, '10, 20:54

vince if you were down south i would suspect all kinds of things growing in the fuel but it seems like the bottom of someones tank rather then then something growing in your tank.what kind of crud was it .your county weight and measure dept. will nomally analize for free.big differance between dirt/ critters/mold/algee and the way we treat them.normally a marina has filters on diesel fuel and water detection every other day with foolproof stick method . i am just trying to establish a point here on what you are against ,so you can take preventive measures in the future.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 15th, '10, 05:43

I can't say I've installed as many engines as Tony, but I've done many.

Never ever used anything other than Racor filters as primaries.

Multi stage primary filters IMO are more snake oil than anything.

Modern diesels that require secondary fuel filters in the 2 micron range already have them built into the engine. Theres no need to add primary filters in that range unless the manufactuerer recommends it and then Racor has those.

If you have unrestricted access for the fuel to flow from the tank thru proper sized lines to the filter, unless someone drops a rag into tank the filters will be the only thing you'l ever have to change.

Remember these screens were put on in a time when filtration and refining qualities leaved something to be desired.

Let me ask you all a question who have had fuel issues in rough water.

Would you rather try and remove and install two spin on filters and deal with the spillage and mess and have to prime or would you rather pop a top, replace the cartridge, pour in some fuel and go on your way?

If your running with bad fuel, or continualy are getting bad fuel its not a filtration problem issue.

Vince,
Algaes pretty easy to spot as it will be stringy. Muck or sludge like Bob said is usualy the result of getting fuel with the marina tank low or right after the tank got filled.

Almost all modern marina's have filtration on their pumps, if the filters have been removed or there's none, I'd look at getting fuel elsewhere or asking management why they don't have filters on the system.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Aug 15th, '10, 05:47

Good advice Bob! It's definately possible that I have something other than algae. I'll give you some more background. It's a real sensitive subject here to accuse the Marina (it is run by the state of delaware) where I get the fuel from. However, I ran 3 offshore trips (approx. 70 miles offshore each trip) this year before I had the problem. How could I run that many trips and burn several full tank loads without a hint of a problem? Also, what about the track record of 12 years w/o a problem? I top off after every trip and before winter layup. I don't have any leaks in my vents or tanks.

I got fuel on the evening of July 5 (after comming home from an offfshore trip). The fuel attendant commented on how much fuel they sold over the holiday weekend. There was another boat fueling at the same time and he's had the same problems. That particuliar boat fishes hard going offshore several times per week. I also know of a third boat who has had the same problems and dock talk scuttlebut says there are many others. Of course the marina doesn't want to hear anything about these problems being due to bad fuel. They talk about filters on their equipment, sticking the tank everyday, etc. But, I talked to a guy who used to run a fuel dock and he told me when the tanks get real low they pump that stuff.

Bob, I assumed what I got was algae, but its probably the bottom of the storage tank's sludge? I just assumed that was algae.

I will keep everyone posted as it sounds like my problem is somewhat common.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Aug 15th, '10, 06:03

Bruce,

You might be right about the "snakeoil" thing, but I figure it can't hurt (other than cost me more money).

I am kind of spooked right now because what I didn't report in my first report is that on my last offshore trip I ran in from 65 miles and my filters/screens decided to plug and my engines quit right inside the inlet on a hard outgoing tide. I had no prior warning other than the same symptom of fluctuating rpm's. We ran 65 miles that way so I never figured on the engines quitting, especially where they did. I almost ended up on the rocks and if it weren't for the coast guards quick response I would have been on the rocks! How's that for luck? If the engines quit about 1/4 mile sooner or 1/4 later I would have been OK. Good timing, huh.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 15th, '10, 08:18

Vince Luciani wrote:Bruce,

You might be right about the "snakeoil" thing, but I figure it can't hurt (other than cost me more money).

I am kind of spooked right now because what I didn't report in my first report is that on my last offshore trip I ran in from 65 miles and my filters/screens decided to plug and my engines quit right inside the inlet on a hard outgoing tide. I had no prior warning other than the same symptom of fluctuating rpm's. We ran 65 miles that way so I never figured on the engines quitting, especially where they did. I almost ended up on the rocks and if it weren't for the coast guards quick response I would have been on the rocks! How's that for luck? If the engines quit about 1/4 mile sooner or 1/4 later I would have been OK. Good timing, huh.

Sounds like you where given a warning...

What happens if the filters clog at the wrong time?

If its crude...it's gonna settle down to the bottom of the tank only to be agitated up again in adverse conditions...not the time I'd wanna find out I need to change filters...

Fresh fuel, Sticking the tank, Filters and Auto Shutdowns at the Pump...I have heard it all, and while I am sure that if everything is on the "Up and Up" chances are low that bad fuel will be pumped...

I am even more sure that bad fuel can still be pumped due to either a lack of knowledge or by deliberately circumventing the process.

Either way, proving it can be another thing...at least proving it to the people that count.

Again...just my .02

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Aug 15th, '10, 10:16

Your boat starved because the boat leveled out coming into the harbor...the top of the screen might have been clear then WHEN THE fuel leveled out ... you stopped.
To find out if its algae.. or tank coming apart.. save some of the crud .. & put it in a full strenght smaLL CONTAINER OF BLEACH.. LOOK NEXT DAY . iT WILL BE GONE IF ALGAE..
WAYNE

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Aug 15th, '10, 10:29

I put the filters on the bulk head inside my V berth. I can change them standing up in 8 footers if I have to. They dont look that great there but trying to deal with them below deck in a small space just did not work out for me. I can place a 5 gal bucket under them and switch out the filter while its still running. I got rid of the screens long ago. I fish offshore alot and will troll for two or three days and it can pack up filters rocking around. I can see that their packing up on my Floscans. Good luck.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 15th, '10, 17:28

i want to say something very important in regards to bruce`s post as oppose to tony . the raccors have the sight glass that will show water (dirty white and black crud for dirt/algae) the spin on filter show no tell tale signs even when you empty them into a pail. just my opinion i like the raccors over the dual spin on pre filter systems .maybe i am wrong but money no object jim smith,spencer,merrit rybo all use the dual 1000 raccor with bypass system so they all can`t be wrong.-----just saying

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Aug 15th, '10, 17:45

The 95' Jim Smith my cousin works on polishes the fuel as it comes on board so bad stuff never gets in the tank. Better bring the $$$$$$$ for that.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 15th, '10, 22:24

Bruce

The shop that installed my Cummins feels the same way as you about spin on's. While I haven't had enough experience yet with the new Racors we put in, it sure looks like it would be easier to just pop the cartridge rather than try and spin off a stubborn filter in rough weather.

I have been trying to figure out why everyone that has switched over swears by Tony's theory. Seems like more trouble than it is worth, but then again to each their own.

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Aug 16th, '10, 07:01

A while back I worked on Sandy Bird the Jetty Jumper which had the same problem. I pulled the bronze plate and the pick up tube had a screen packed wih crud and algee. I removed the screen and it fixed it self.

Since I've been building a race car the last 5 months our 31 has been sitting idle. I think a inspection of the fule in the tank is in order before we go offshore.

RussP

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Aug 16th, '10, 16:27

I had an almost similar problem with the boat acting like it was out of gas. I too almost ended up in the rocks cause my anchor wouldnt take hold. I was in only 15ft of water and there was 2-3 foot waves. I was able to tie the boat off to a pole used for a fish trap which saved me from the rocks. I thought our local marine police were going to come to my rescue but they only wanted to write me a ticket for tieing off to a fish net. haha But anyways it seemed like everytime i would come off plane and just cruise it would happen. Pulled the pickup tube out thinking it was clogged or something and come to find out the damn thing had a crack running halfway up the tube. When i was on plane all the fuel was to the rear which covered up the crack. Anyways one of thosethings thats usually the last thing you'd assume to be wrong is whats wrong.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 16th, '10, 16:59

Tony,
Its very easy for people who don't totaly grasp a concept to be talked into things by experts who have something to sell and make money off of.

I could have built and marketed so many better widgets over the years it wasn't funny. In the end there were always products currently on the market that did a good job already.

The bottom line is if someone has that bad of a fuel problem continualy that filtration other than a Racor is needed, then either buy fuel somewhere's else, use the boat more or next time fill the boat using the rod holder and toss a match to it as your getting off.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Aug 17th, '10, 12:51

Here are the pictures of the pickups. The last picture is where I removed the screens. Wayne, I didn't get a chance to try your bleach idea because I read your post after I had done my work and cleaned up.

I ran the boat on Sunday for about a 3 hour trip. It was pretty rough on Sunday morning and all was fine. I checked the filters afterwards and they were not too bad. There was some stuff in the bowl, but not much. Iâ€™m installing vacuum gages on my Racor 900â€™s and going to run the boat and keep a close watch.
Vince

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Aug 17th, '10, 20:52

Heres my screen on the second problem about 2 years after the first time...,took it off...

..

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bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 17th, '10, 21:04

looks like your putting the gulf oil spill directly in your tank. so thats what bp does with all that skim oil!!!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 17th, '10, 22:13

Looks like the tank cold use some Biocide too.

bertram31.com

Fuel Pickup Screen - Remove or Leave in Place

Fuel Pickup Screen - Remove or Leave in Place

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