lower helm?

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Jun 16th, '10, 00:06

A good friend of mine who has fallen in love with the idea of buying a Bertram 28, has decided that no B28 without a lower helm is worth his consideration.

I've explained my opinion (assholes and opinions, everybody has one....) that the lower helm was something that most people think that they want at first, but it never gets used.

My knowledge is limited for sure, but I promised my friend that hundreds of years of actual boat experience was readily available on this site, and so I would post his question here.

So.... what do you guys think? .....
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.
.
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Lower helm:
Waste of space?
Must Have?
or..... value-added option?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jun 16th, '10, 07:16

lower helm is a excellent idea if you think it is cool to see how many crab/lobster traps you can run over before fouling your props.builts confidence not knowing whats directly in front of the boat like trees,plastic bags,other garbage.excellent in a fog when you have no clue whats out there.i say if you like pucker factor go for it!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 16th, '10, 07:25

Having an Express I can tell you there are times it is nice to drive from a lower helm as compared to my short Tower.

Times like a hard driving rain...

When it's blowing hard and your trying to troll with water being whipped back at you...

When its really crappy out and your going slow...

When its cold as a Witches Tit and your Trolling or Running in Flat seas where you Can See well in front of you.

Then again a good canvas enclosure would work well too.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jun 16th, '10, 07:44

my option isnt in the poll. i like being outside while running the boat so i have no enclosure of any kind....not even a bimini. i run the boat from the bridge about 90% of the time(even in november) BUT the other ten percent of the time i am very happy to get out of a thunder storm or open the front glass on a 95 degree day and cool off for awhile. i've never had much of a problem seeing except trying to follow broken weed lines from trey's cabin only 25. sometimes taller is definitely better.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 16th, '10, 09:12

Randall,
Without the tower I was forced to run from the low helm on the Express.
I was good for one clunk a season

When water is flat...no problem. But a good chop hides debris in the trough of the waves...can't see the stuff till its too late...sometimes you can't see it period.

In a 2-3' sea I would run with the Helm window open and my head out as far as possible with hands on throttles...still hit crap. Being in Lower New York Harbor doesn't help...

Now when I have a good chop I run from upstairs...much much better. I hit once since the tower....and that was just putting the boat in gear from a standstill stop....piece of wood floating just under the surface at the exact time I shifted....what are the chances of that???

If it wasn't for bad luck....i'd have no luck at all.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jun 16th, '10, 09:13

I just like being able to start the boat and check the instruments from down below without having to open up my enclosure and climbing on the bridge. It also allows me to work on my engines alone, especially the starboard one. Even if there was no steering, I would opt for an instrument panel and throttles down below.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Jun 16th, '10, 10:10

I agree with Sim and Walter, it's not a necessity but a great option for reasons they stated. I preferred having the simple bimini on the bridge without curtains, and the lower station allowed for comfort in inclimate weather, and convenience of access.

Tommy

Ironman · Post by **Ironman** » Jun 16th, '10, 10:43

i DONT KNOW ABOUT THE WHEEL ..BUT THE CONTROLS ARE A BIG PLUSS.docking getting around kelps fishing.... backing down.. ..easy install if you already have electronic controls..
Wayne

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » Jun 16th, '10, 12:14

a waste of space in Florida.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Jun 16th, '10, 12:56

yeah I should qualify that, the helm question is for a boat/owner in Florida.

Bob you're funny

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 16th, '10, 13:09

In Florida it's a plus if you have AC running in the cabin

HilaryS · Post by **HilaryS** » Jun 16th, '10, 15:17

Since I'm the friend Sean is referring to, I thought I would share my current view and see what everyone has to say. I donâ€™t believe the lower helm is a must, but currently I would prefer it. I donâ€™t believe I would use it a whole lot as I donâ€™t believe it would be a good idea for speeds above trolling or when needing to maneuver. My main thought is to use it for riding out the frequent Florida thunderstorms and as a backup. The loss of space on the B28s Iâ€™ve seen doesnâ€™t bother me to much because I can fit several suitcases in the lower helm station which, in my opinion, makes up for the loss of the hanging locker.

Even though my name is Hilary, I am a guy (kind of like a boy named Sue); or as Sean often calls me, â€œCorn Fed Galuteâ€ (6â€™4â€ 264 lbs.)

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 16th, '10, 15:19

It is real nice on the Chesapeake during December Striper season!!

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 16th, '10, 17:13

If he goes with a new installation 2 station set up, The Kobelt is as neat as it gets. It only uses one set of primary cables to the engine & gear, no cumbersome splitter mechanisms and no secound set of heavy Morse 33 series cables. It uses a smaller set of cables between the control heads...very nice, smooth and the smaller cable set is easy to snake in tight spots. It only requires light pressure operation from either control (depending on engine and gear resistance)

Check out the 2090 series in the catalog.

http://kobelt.com/pdf/brochure_pushtopull.pdf

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Jun 16th, '10, 17:21

Are we talking about cockpit controls or a lower station INSIDE the cabin?

My B28 HAD a lower station INSIDE the cabin and I used it one time. It is GONE and I made up a new cabin layout adding cabinetry and counter space.

The lower station that is inside on a B28 is useless IMHO. When the boat is going up on plane it is IMPOSSIBLE to see what is in front of you until you are on plane and even then it is tough to see in front of you.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 16th, '10, 17:42

Hilary,

Welcome Aboard!

The whole bottom line is "What YOU want is WHAT you want". It doesn't mean a flip what anybody else's opinion is...

Yes, you do need to be educated about what you want and not make a mistake such as buying a Bayliner because it looks better to you than a Bertram. But whether or not a Bertram has or hasn't a lower station is strictly a personal preference item.

Buy what makes you happy and to hell with what someone else is happy with. Especially that instigator Sean.

Br,

Patrick

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jun 16th, '10, 17:43

frank i sean to interpet wayne the way you did i think he refering to cockpit controls.yes they would be good but i move these damm boat every day .this is the way i see it be it a dock or fighting a fish off the transum; up 20' you can judge up to about 2" at 31 fbc height facing backwards with single lever controls about 3" sitting in the cabin looking backwards fighting a fish or docking ( i can`t see thru the transom) i could only guess maybe 2' at best .i put 8 zillion hours on a 28' parker pilot house two years ago in the canyon .with the swim platform it really made life differcult . yea i am the idiot looking out the side window trying to spot a log going to the canyon in light fog! completly stupid and i for one will not listen .don`t like the weather ----put a soft top and enclosure and take down curtains when needed ---get a life

BCBertie · Post by **BCBertie** » Jun 16th, '10, 19:29

I'm busy adding a lower station to my 28 (and a late style bridge as well). My 26 has a lower station, and I think it's essential.

Then again, I use my boat in BC and my boat is not an optional mode of travel, it is my equivalent of an SUV; it's how we get provisions, medical help, etc.

I would rather be on the flybridge and I am when possible, but I hate enclosures (they're just big sails if you dock in a crosswind). I also never am near a marina, and I don't really fish.

The lower station is also very convenient for maintenance.

But would I care if I only took the boat out for fun in Florida? Probably not...

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 16th, '10, 20:23

Capt Patrick:

not make a mistake such as buying a Bayliner

There ya go Hilary, sound wisdom. BTW welcome.

HilaryS · Post by **HilaryS** » Jun 16th, '10, 21:18

I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome.

I enjoyed the advice concerning shiny Bayliners. A few years ago I was with a friend on their Bayliner on a calm day on the ICW. We had enjoyed a few beverages and he decided to make a hard turn at speed. Between my butt descending through the deck and breaking a stringer as I fell, I basically have no faith in a Baylinerâ€™s durability.

As for looking for a pretty boat, well isnâ€™t it common sense to wonder and be driven to find out why a pretty boat of one make and model costs the same as a boat in need of TLC in another make and model? Besides Iâ€™ve seen pictures of very clean and nicely outfitted Bertrams, however their price tags tend to be rather high. My goal is to take a functional seaworthy boat and make it my own, eventually getting everything exactly how I want it. Iâ€™ve always been a fan of the personal customizations involving oneâ€™s own sweat and blood, they always seem to carry so much more meaning. I have effectively decided on the make on model of what Iâ€™m looking for, what Iâ€™m still trying to figure out is what features and configurations of the B28 I should give preferential treatment to.

One quote of Sean and Rachelâ€™s, everyone might find amusing, is â€œDamn, weâ€™ve turned you into a Bertram snob and you donâ€™t even have one yet.â€ This comment was made during a discussion concerning an Ocean docked at the local marina which had parts break off during its trip home from the dealer.

Sean, I appologize if I've started hijacking your post. In my defense, it was kind of about me though.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » Jun 16th, '10, 21:52

CaptPatrick wrote:Especially that instigator Sean.

Hey I resemble that remark :)

One thing I've always assumed and should have asked about: doesn't the doubling of all the cable/controls tend to make everything operate kind of stiff?

Thanks for the opinions/experience guys.

Hilary is the type of friend that will come help you change engine mount bolts, which he has done three different days with me... and that project was one of the most miserable boat-related experiences I've had thus far. That job sucked bigtime, and Hilary happily shared some of the misery with a "will work for beer" type atitude. Some good friends would help you move, a few great friends would help you move a body, and I think he would do both.

Hilary learn how to spell galoot, you big corn-fed galoot!

HilaryS · Post by **HilaryS** » Jun 16th, '10, 22:06

Ok, so the Hillbilly from the backwoods of Appalachia has trouble spelling....LOL

One thing I would like to add concerning Sean's engine bolt change project, is that the engines where still in the boat. I believe it would have been a simple project had we removed the engines.

As for diposing of a body, thats easy, French Fry (the local marina resident alligator) would be glad to lend his digestive track to the disposal.

STeveZ · Post by **STeveZ** » Jun 17th, '10, 08:38

It sounds like a lower helm makes sense for you. A bridge enclosure works fine of course but is a PITA if you like to run with a bimini only. Which is why I've settled on a bimini + helm cover and just count on donning a slicker and getting wet if it rains.

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Jun 17th, '10, 09:22

Bayliner= the carp of boats.

The Trophy has a few redeaming qualities as far as looks go after that they are all bone yard material from an old episode of the Jetsons.

Welcome Hilary.

Face · Post by **Face** » Jun 17th, '10, 13:35

I removed the lower helm from my B28 and now I need to change the gauge senders in my motors from dual station to single station. Just a thought, whatever you go with, buy it that way from the start.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jun 17th, '10, 14:52

The wonderful little surprises no one figures on... On my B-20: New engine and outdrive. None of my gauges nor the tach are compatible. Nothing said or thought of at estimate time, soooo all new.

MarkS · Post by **MarkS** » Jun 17th, '10, 15:40

Would I be correct in saying a dual station oil pressure sender produces twice the electrical pressure of a single station sender? What if you have one gauge hooked up to a dual station sender?

Somebody smarten me up here please!

M

And of course I apologize ahead of time for the potential post hijack!

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Jun 17th, '10, 15:59

all i know is you get inaccurate readings if you use only one gauge with dual station senders.

Face do you still have that lower station? I talked with you about it a couple yrs ago i live in southern md close to solomon's island.

Face · Post by **Face** » Jun 18th, '10, 10:13

Scooter, I still have it, sitting in Lusby.

I have mixed feelings about getting rid of it although in all reality I won't be installing it again. I would let it go for $200. Not sure if that's reasonable or not and of course you would need a new set of gauges, helm, switches, controls, cables, etc. It's basically good for the fiberglass.

Send me a pm if you like, I would contribute some of this to Capt. Patrick.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 18th, '10, 10:35

I have the lower station that came out of my B25, basically designed to mount to a flush, vertical bulkhead. Should be adaptable to 28 or 31. Any board member that wants it, can have it for the frieght or pick it up in Texas.

Face · Post by **Face** » Jun 18th, '10, 11:13

Scot, sounds the same as the one in the b28.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jun 18th, '10, 12:55

Welcome Hilary...so after all this, I guess you figured it out right?
It's up to you.

For what it's worth I have only seen one person in all my years of boating ever drive from a lower helm... A good old friend who just hangs out with his company on his 40' Chris Craft and put puts around the Bay for hours...

Other then that I've seen several use it to crank up the motors when working on them...but thats it.

HilaryS · Post by **HilaryS** » Jun 18th, '10, 13:14

Based on what Iâ€™ve read in the posts so far my feelings about the lower helm still remain mostly unchanged, however I do have also developed a couple of specific questions.

My Views:
Having a backup never hurts (gauges and controls).
Initial loss of space isnâ€™t a big deal for me since the Hanging Locker isnâ€™t real important and I donâ€™t plan on making a lot of cabin changes, at least not initially.
The option to be able to get out of the weather is nice.
True functionality is limited due to visibility issues.
Having Gauges and controls close by for engine work is useful.
Something I would like but donâ€™t necessarily need.

My Questions:
Does having a second set of controls effect the resistance/ease of use of the controls?
What sort of maintenance cost increase is there from maintaining a second helm?

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Jun 18th, '10, 13:41

sim wrote:Welcome Hilary...so after all this, I guess you figured it out right?
It's up to you.

Yup. Get the B31 that's works for you and how you'll use it. I like the glassed in windshield, upper helm only, for offshore use. For my use here on the Bay, the regular windshield is nice to have, and I wish I had lower controls when trolling at 2.5 knots in November. Crae of "Mako" who usually posts here fishes his B31 SF on the Chesapeake also, and uses his lower controls alot. Enjoy

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 18th, '10, 14:10

They are nice to have for cold water fishing and driving rain storms. They are also easier to get at when landing a fish shorthanded (run into the cabin instead of climbing the bridge). With trim tabs (which a lot of people on here hate) I have no trouble running from down stairs. yes, you have less visibility because you are low on the water, but you can throttle back and be comfortable. I do not find any great resistance from the second set of controls and I still have the 1966 morse cables that came with the boat. I also have a second GPS/chartplotter and compass downstairs for redundancy.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jun 18th, '10, 21:33

I had a leak in my hydraulic steering once and lost my bridge steering. The lower station steering still worked. It was a nice backup.

Bayside Bert28 · Post by **Bayside Bert28** » Jun 20th, '10, 07:20

When I was looking for a Bertram 28, the lower helm appealed to me. I also wanted a bathroom with a shower! I realized neither of these things would see any real world use . Since the Bertram 28 is not very big, you might find a liferaft or dinghy up on the bow further taking away from the already very limited view. This year, with a new enclosure going on, I plan to cover the front windows with canvas (stamoid) to stop any water intrusion. It's also admitting "there was no view out those windows anyway!"

Without the lower helm there is also a little more space in the already space limited cabin which is nice.

Still .. I like seeing models with the lower helm ... very cool.

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