Hynautic steering problem/question--long post

[John F.]

My steering was working fine, but the copper lines and aluminum relief valve (my system has a separate resevoir mounted in the starboard engine box and a relief valve mounted on the aft tank bulkhead facing the transom) were corroded together as a solid mass, and the resevoir had a slow leak. So, I've replaced the relief valve, resevoir, and all the steering lines.

I got the system pressurized and bled, but the steering is really tight now-alot tighter than it ever was. Also, when I back off the bleeder screws on the relief valve, the steering still works. When I let the air out of the system, after turning the wheel a few times, the helm will turn easily and the steering won't work (that's like it was and from what I understand is how it should be).

I've gone back over all the lines per Hynautic's trouble shooting. No kinks or sharp bends, and no leaks. I'm going to disconnect the rudders and be sure they're free, but I doubt that's it. I can shake them a little (they've always had a little play), and they feel OK.

Could I have gotten a bad relief valve? Can I bypass the relief valve to check by running lines right from the helm to the cylinder? The relief valve came with plastic plugs so I think I can plug the ports on the relief valve to bypass for a test. I've left enough slack in the helm lines at the stern to make sure things worked and the lines can reach the cylinder if necessary--I have extra compression fittings and will cut them down when I get this figured out. I don't know what the relief valve really is and how it works--I've got barely a clue on the cylinder and helm.

Could my cylinder have gone bad over the winter? I have a big fixed mount cylinder (bolted to the transom bronze/brass)--looks very expensive. I'm hoping that when I disconnect the rudders and lines from it I can check it for movement/binding by hand. Can I?

Is there something obvious I'm missing or could've broken that's causing this?

This is all new to me. Any advice would be appreciated. I'm pretty frustrated, and have to splash by 4/1 no matter what.

[In Memory Walter K]

I would work backwards and first check that nothing outside the hydnautic system was hampering the system from working ie rudders (even one) are frozen, piston arm frozen, rudder tie bar frozen, etc. Usually if you have lost pressure or fluid, the reverse of your problem happens, the wheel turns very easily but nothing happens at the rudders. Also, in the bleeding process, the spinning of the wheel in both directions as the fluid runs through the lines and the air is being purged out the relief valve until fluid runs (then closed down) the wheel should turn ok and your rudders should start to move. Your reservoir is just that. Allows you to check fluid level and if it is like mine, has a valve on it through which you can pump air to pressurize it. It usually has a pressure gauge on it. I think anywhere from 18-30 psi is fine. The only thing I can think of that could be wrong there would be a slight crack somewhere, but then you would either have slight leakage and/or loss of pressure over time. If there is a blockage at any of your fittings, you could have what is happening to you now. Perhaps what you should try is cracking each fitting with someone gently turning the wheel. Keep a big rag wrapped around the fitting. Each should lose fluid. If dry, that's the blockage that must be taken care of. Then refill your losses and repressurize. Are you using a proper hydraulic fluid? If all that doesn't do it, don't hesitate to call the guy at Charman. He'll talk you through a fix as what you have might be very obvious to him. It's the reverse of most people's problems, but he WILL want to know if anything in your steering system could be frozen. Hope this helps and keep us posted. Walter

[JohnD]

John,

Assuming lines connected in the correct order, the system is somewhat simple. As walter mentioned, check the type of fluid, when I replaced my lines, I had some trouble using generic hydraulic fluid instead of hynautic's and found it was tough to turn the wheel. I wound up draining and refilling with hynautic fluid and it then worked as it was suppose too but cost $$$.

br,
JohnD

[Bruce]

My experience has been with a properly plumbed and bled system, hard steering is the result of using Dextron ATF fluid.

If the pressure relief is seperate from the tank as I gather yours is, theres really nothing in the tank that can go bad other than the valve stem or orings.

[Carl]

I'd go along the same line.

Disconnect rudders and make sure they are turning free.

Make sure the Ram moves with rudder disconnected.

At that point you can direct your attention to the hydraulic side or the mechanical side.

Sure your lines are connected to the correct ports, in the right direction to the valve?

[John F.]

Walter/John/Bruce/Sim-

Thanks for the advice. I'm using the Teleflex fluid bought at West Marine for too much money--and at $20 quart it sucks to keep disconnecting things to check and have the stuff run out. Oh well.

I disconnected the rudders, and they turn fine--no binding there. I loosened the connections at the cylinder, and worked the cylinder a little bit. It seemed OK. I have the fixed mount cylinder that bolts to the transom and connects to the rudders with ball joints--no tie-rod.

I called Charman, and they guy there said that the relief valves can be bad, but directed me to the Teleflex tech. support. Hopefully I'll hear from them.

Only thing I can think of (recognizing that I don't know squat about these things), is that the relief valve is bad, or that I used the same size lines (3/8") for the steering lines and line from the helm/resevoir/relief valve, and that the helm/resevoir/relief valve line I took out was smaller--maybe 1/4". Or that during the install I did something wrong on bleeding and screwed up something.

I checked the lines. I know that the helm/resevoir/relief line is right. The other lines I think I have right. I disconnected and reversed to see what happens, and the rudders just turned opposite from the helm with the same binding. Pretty much what I thought but I thought I'd try out of desperation.

John

[In Memory Walter K]

When I had my Hydnautic problems, I found where my leak was thanks to the red hydraulic fluid showing. When I went to replace it, I was told it no longer existed and I had to use the new Teleflex fluid that was clear/amber. NO ONE could tell me if the two were compatible. What I discovered (not easily) that the red fluid is available in gallons if you can get with someone who flies. It is a non-foaming hydraulic fluid that is used in small planes. I don't think the gallon cost me any more than $20 and it's been running my unit fine for 5 years now. Any sort of oil in your bilge is bad news, but if it's bright red, you at least know what your problem is.
Disconnect your ram from your transom. Have someone hold it instead of the solid transom connection. Does the wheel turn easier? My ram pivots on turns. Walter

[Eddy G]

Any MIL-5606H hyd fluid is compatible with the Teleflex stuff. You can buy it on line for about $9.00 a qt. or $25.00 a gallon. Dyed red.
http://www.skygeek.com/hydraulicfluid.html is one place.

Eddy G.

[JP Dalik]

Generally speaking if its not leaking its nots bad.

I just redid all the seals in the head of our hynautic system and found the unit stiffer than I remember before the refresh. I also remember as a kid trying to steer any number of the new Topaz (late 70 early 80's) that my father had commissioned and that the steering seemed tight on the hynautic boats.

Old fluid, cold fluid, wrong fluid could add to your stiffness the first check, is it leaking. Vary the pressure does it steer better at 15 or 30 lbs? Does it hold pressure? I've always found myself more critical of a system I've repaired than one that I've been using.

Have you changed the wheel diameter from the factory size?

Sorry for the stupid questions but I answered yes to:
Old fluid
new seals
smaller wheel

and came up with stiffer steering as the answer. Maybe you do too.

[John F.]

JP--Its new fluid, same wheel, old seals, it doesn't leak.

I'm going to go back over everything, and then try to isolate stuff, at the suggestion of the teleflex tech guy (very helpful guy and very patient)--

--take the lines off the cylinder, and make sure it moves freely. If the cylinder moves freely, it shouldn't be the source of the binding.
--plug the lines from the relief valve, and run the lines straight from the helm to the cylinder. If that works, then the relief valve is screwed up. If it still binds, then it isn't the relief valve.

Ultimately, figure out its some stupid mistake I made.

Just thinkin' out loud. This was supposed to be easy.

Thanks.

At least after talking to the Teleflex guy and another guy at Fluid Tech in Jacksonville (also very helpful and patient), I have a basic understanding of all this stuff.

[Carl]

John, the easy jobs never are...