Shop class, a thing of the past.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jan 27th, '10, 07:33

Good article on the loss of shop class in schools.

Our schools have lost their way.

http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicati ... -soulcraft

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jan 27th, '10, 09:54

Interesting!! That is too bad about shop class. I wish that my high school had offered a shop class.

I go to Dempsey's in Richmond!! Great shop for reasonably priced tooling. They have a 90 satisfaction guaranteed return policy on anything you buy from them. They also sell on Ebay.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 27th, '10, 10:34

i had two study halls so they told me to pick another class. i took "art".................look how that turned out.

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » Jan 27th, '10, 11:29

Even the most respected local tech institute back 30 years ago was 10 years behind the real world shops equipment...I understand it's not much better now....no emphasis on manufacturing in this country started back then, when high tech was the up and coming job to have....No wonder we are in the crapper now...

My cousin who owns one of the larger shops up here is having so much trouble finding qualified younger help he actually started a school through the use of govt grants to train local kids/people in the manufacturing sector..
He's had reasonably strong success doing this over the past 3 years .. and the students get to practice on not only state of the art simulators but also get to experience the shop.. which is as real world as it gets....

For me in the woodworking industry I have to pick thru kids from the local tech high school construction class, trying to find one that's into furniture and precise measurements instead of throwing up framing for the local general contractor...who are all laid off ..
I went there yesterday to interview/hire a couple of kids and had 16 of them lined up at the work study office and 5 more graduates that had not found work since last june...Sad...

Ray

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 27th, '10, 11:53

I took a Metal Shop class in Jr High. In six months we made a Tic-Tac-Toe board. It consisted of a 4" square piece of 1/16" alum sheet which we scribed lines then punched holes thru for pegs.

Never turned on a lathe, mill or a drill press...not even sure if the instructor told us what they where.

Gee, I wonder if that class turned anyone onto the machining field...

Our local Vocational Schools do not teach the machinist trade anymore.

Nah...I'm not going to start my rant on this subject.

But when society frowns down upon anyone who works with there hands...it's just sad.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jan 27th, '10, 11:54

After taking First Prize in the 1972 NYC Industrial Arts Competition (as a ninth grader), I spent my first year of college at the State University of NY campus at Oswego........as an Industrial Arts major. I wanted to be a shop teacher.

Luckily, I got tossed out of school for riding a motorcycle through a dormitory.........or I would probably be unemployed today.

PS The competition that I won in 1972 doesn't exist any more......

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 27th, '10, 12:04

its a reality that most kids cant do anything with tools that dont have keyboards or joy sticks. ive noticed the local ball field stays empty now all summer. when i was a kid there was a game every day. there are a bunch of local kids that surf, snowboard, and fish.........the other 95% play video games.

BTW...mike was "mr. plexiglass" back in the day.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Jan 27th, '10, 12:09

Just checked.....

Oswego doesn't even offer Industrial Arts any more.

It used to be THE IA teachers college......

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jan 27th, '10, 12:35

they just started a shop class at my sons school this year.

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » Jan 27th, '10, 13:27

I'm going to teach my son to either be a Porsche mechanic or a marine mechanic. Both offer superior earning potential.

STeveZ · Post by **STeveZ** » Jan 27th, '10, 16:44

I see a shortage of hash pipes and billy clubs in our future.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jan 27th, '10, 17:15

With the push to legalize medical Mary Jane in many other states besides Kalifornia, I'd be a glass blower and make bongs.

Or start a specialized bong water company with flavored waters to enhance the afterglow.

Forget the marine mechanic job.
My most sucessful customers work with money. As the old saying goes if you want to make serious coin, work with coin.

I also wanted to be a shop teacher but had all my fingers.

STeveZ · Post by **STeveZ** » Jan 27th, '10, 17:23

I am currently scouring our YC's membership list for someone who can diagnose the glaucoma I'm sure I have.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Jan 27th, '10, 18:29

its true and sad, ive said it for years all the younger generation wants to do is sit in front of a computer and work, it be comming harder and harder to find young people willing to get into my line of work.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jan 27th, '10, 23:06

I took "Industrial Arts" (Wood Shop) in the 9th grade.

I remember the first day in class. As I walked thru the door I spotted a wood lathe....me and that lathe spent many many happy hours together.

One day I got called to the office and there was one of many Billy Clubs that I made laying on the principles desk. I appears that it showed up in a campus fight......it was STRONGLY suggested that I quite making clubs and giving them to friends.

Imagine this.....one of my projects was that I took a large file and using a bench grinder I made a pretty good knife....and the instructor even helped me.

But I did get my a$$ busted for drag racing the belt sanders.....

Harry

capy · Post by **capy** » Jan 28th, '10, 12:39

Kids today are not all useless, I have mentored a few who are really sharp...good with tools and good with electronics/software. They just lack breadth of experience as there are no manufacturing jobs anymore.

In Jr high we had printing, wood shop, metal shop and Construction

I built Some shelves and a night stand, Tin jewlery boxes, and 4'x6'x2' "module" or corner of a standard house.

I then went to the Northeast Regional Vocational Technical High School of nuts and bolts, in Wakefield mass.

This was the school where you take a full college course load and a full shop course load...one week academics the next shop 7:30-3:30 every day. After school I drove a fork truck in an injection molding plant from 4-8 for pocket money.

As a freshman you got to pick four shops (Exploratory) and complete a project in each.

I chose

carpentry (Build a sawhorse)
Machine shop (build a valve)
Auto mechanics(rebuild a briggs and stratton)
Metal fabrication((Ornamental iron work)

You then had to pick those in order of 1st , 2nd...etc Kids with best grades got their first choice...I got my 2nd, metal fab.

We made lunch bag acetylene bombs, welded lower classman into lockers, pipe bombs...all kinds of fun and learned alot about welding, designing, shearing, forming, etc. We had shop competitions which we won quite few of, I think it was called VICA Vocational Indutrial Competition Assoc.

When went to work at 18 ....I was making 80% of my dad's engineer salary, as a welder...couldn't take the smoke, in the span of 4 years went and worked as a technician in a few different industries, found my way into research...went back to school and got an engineering degree.

This background has allowed me to work on ships, aircraft, weapon systems, lasers and spacecraft. Also it has provided me a decent living, allowed me to travel and to buy the best boat ever built....

I owe it all to shop class.

I wonder where guys like me will come from in the future??

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Jan 28th, '10, 13:42

Paul wrote:I wonder where guys like me will come from in the future??

Been wondering the same thing for years......I think its like you started out saying.....its up to us to mentor young guys and kindle the flame in their inner soul.

Last night my 9 year old grandson and I finished working on his dirt bike. All we did was patch the rear tube and replace sprockets and chain. It was a real struggle to get him into the spirit of doing this project but as we went along and I insisted that he use his little fingers to install the chain and tighten the bolts I could see him begin to develop interest.

The final straw was for him to install the Master Link and snap the retaining clip.....he really struggled with it but finally found success.

I believe that's where it all starts......the best machinist I have ever seen are the ones that had to beat on an ole car all week so that it would run long enough to go out on Sat night.......

Harry

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Jan 28th, '10, 14:34

An old time carpenter took me under his wing when I was young,he taught me about scribing, copeing, mitres...I learned more by watching him work and how he tackled every task at hand....he would dole out pearls of wisdom...just enough to make me want to learn and do more...

The best gift he gave was teaching me PATIENCE....

Wish he was here today...I would have loved to see what he would think of my Bertram...

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jan 28th, '10, 15:26

Patience and PERSISTENCE!! I am no expert at repairing old equipment, but persistence is what it takes to get the job done when things just don't go as planned (and none of mine ever do). I have a case of old iron disease and I wind up working on a lot of old (40+) year old equipment. I really appreciate how things used to be designed to last and to be repaired in the field. That being said, most repairs that I undertake do not wind up going by the book. 40+ years of rust, wear and abuse mean that you often have to go to plan B, and then to plan C. Most younger guys don't seem to have the persistence (and patience) it takes to get the job done. I guess it is an instant gratification thing. Of course my wife also thinks I am crazy as well for going off to the farm on a cold windy day to work under a piece of equipment.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jan 28th, '10, 16:35

The penalty for accepting a disposable society. Things were made to last because they had to. No planned obscillesence like today's junk.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 28th, '10, 18:45

this is an interesting thread. i think paul really nailed it.

i once had a friend who started life as a poor black kid in houston. he was obviously bright and very good with his hands. when he was 12 he started sweeping up at the transmission shop. eventually he was so good at fixing transmissions that the owner told him when he came home from college(full scholarship) he would make him a partner. he never did move back to houston because while in college a professor saw his potential and sent him in another direction. he became a neurosurgeon. he said working on brains was easier than power-glides.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 29th, '10, 14:55

It started out as a dreary, wet, relatively cold day today... What to do?

3 days ago I fumbled and spilled about a pint of primer while refilling the gun. Then the next day I go and do it all over again. Senility is getting tough.

So back to shop class/arts and crafts, and other handy man stuff I decided to MacGyver up a gun stand from a pair of high dollar clothes hangers and some junk laying around the shop.

Functions very well and stabile on either the pipe stand or the table top.

Were it not for metal shop, wood shop, and drafting classes back in junior high, I'd probably have become a lazy bum... Never could shake the burning desire to make something...

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jan 29th, '10, 15:08

Neat....more ways to skin a cat than feed it melted butter, huh?

UV

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Jan 29th, '10, 15:31

They teach shop classes in my area, but it's mostly for girls now.
First prerequisit for the class is mastery in Credit Card swiping.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jan 29th, '10, 16:34

Kick me in the head and call me Fred.

I forgot, I did put one guy on a week ago who is savy and came from a vocational school, looking to become a mechanical engineer.

When he originally came in I was up to my ears in people, he seemed a bit flaky and I really did not want to put him on at that time...but he was a persistent person and offered to work for free...just wanted to get his hands dirty. Said he could weld...I really needed some welding done.

I told him free wasn't an option but I'd give him a try...dammed if he is not good and tries like hell. I go out of my way to show him the right way to do things and he takes it and runs with it. Makes me feel good to see someone interested, trying and making headway.

Glad I read this thread again, made me feel good.

chris pague · Post by **chris pague** » Jan 29th, '10, 17:01

Harv; That last shot killed what I wanted to say. I am still bent over in tears.
Buttttt. After almost 40yr in the auto business and to see the guys and girls that get out of the tech schools and think they are qualified to make what a man has worked for 25yrs as a master tech made me sick. They think they can work on today's cars, BULL, throw parts at it, that may work? Put a set of points and a condenser in their hands and What is this?
They do not know anything. Damn glad I called it to and end.
Fabricate something, there is no way. Will they buy the tools they need to progress in their profession, No the Shop should provide them.
Sorry had to rant and rave

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 29th, '10, 17:43

and you have expensive clothes hangers because................

nice...ive dropped the spray gun a few times...unwieldy suckers.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 29th, '10, 18:09

and you have expensive clothes hangers because...............

Unecessary house warming gift from a family member. I don't ever recall buying a hanger of any discription... Hmmm... Got ten more of 'em. What else can I build?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jan 29th, '10, 20:23

and you have expensive clothes hangers because................

You got to have somewhere to hang the inflatable women when they spring a leak.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jan 30th, '10, 01:53

You got to have somewhere to hang the inflatable women when they spring a leak.

I've learned to keep them away from the cactus when I take 'em on a picnic...

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Jan 30th, '10, 10:49

Everything about this thread is SO true and heartfelt! Throughout my jr. high and high school years there was shop class, and that's really all I wanted to do because it was the beginning of my true interest. The last thing I remember in welding class was performing root beads for my certification into the marine underwater welding field, but automotive really got me fired up and excited. Now I see kids coming into Toyota wanting all the money without even trying to progress. They will ask you how something is done, an hour later the same question! My mentor was always Lee (Pappy) our commercial fishing buddy who had the most uncanny ability to build anything for our lobster boats we used.My father was hands on as well. Having a wife that is a Kindergarden teacher we know first hand it all starts with the parents and wanting to use your hands!

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 30th, '10, 13:58

its not just using your hands to make something. starting in first grade we played football EVERY day after school till winter. then we played basket ball when we could and baseball EVERY day in the spring till it got dark. no adults......just a choose up game. we did little league too but we fit that in... not the other way around. now kids cant do anything unless its organized. i dont think they could have a snowball fight unless there were leagues and adult supervision.

our 50 year old sunday softball game fell apart because the young guys didnt get it. it was just for the fun of it.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Jan 30th, '10, 14:56

you are absuluty right randall, we as kids oranized all of are games on are own, be it baseball in the street, touch and tackle football, stick ball, i miss thous days

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Jan 31st, '10, 17:48

When I was a little kid my Dad would take me to a junkyard and buy me a sewing machine or something for a nickel, give me a screwdriver and some pliers and let me take it apart and try to put it back together. I learned pretty quick that a 1,000th of an inch meant something. Had shop classes in school but mostly wood working which I never quite mastered for some reason, can't cut a straight line. Nor paint worth a damn. Hands on is the only way to learn.

UV

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 31st, '10, 18:28

. Hands on is the only way to learn.

UV[/quote]

one of the secrets of life.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jan 31st, '10, 18:56

it was just for the fun of it.

Thanks to loser parents trying to live out their failed miserable lives thru their kids sports and or 2nd place is just first loser attitude many kids don't know what its like just to have fun playing sports.

When the kids grow older everything becomes a pissing contest.
That is until 50 when your lucky to piss at all.

randall · Post by **randall** » Jan 31st, '10, 18:59

someday my grand kids are gonna talk about their pioneer grand pa that heated with wood.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Jan 31st, '10, 20:43

Paul-
Say three Hail Mary's and don't eat meat on Friday.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jan 31st, '10, 22:52

i grew up on a island one way in and one way .at 6 years old we would wonder along the beach picking up stuff . growing up poor was actually good . we built a raff and floated over to a nearby island . we had shop classes all thru grade school and high school , like someone said best is hands on. i was a local motorhead and put pontiac engine in 1956 chevy and oldsmobile j-2 engine in a henry-J . i was 12 years old before i realize that people actually come to your house to do electrical,plumbing,carpentry,etc no matter what it was my dad and i would fix it or build a dormer on the house. he was my best friend and would stop in his tracks and tell me the terror of landing on omaha beach during ww2 . these kids today are missing the whole picture without shop class. nowdays people are look down at who work with there hands---"mom the workers are here" be it custom cabinet maker or laborer digging a hole!!!

RussP · Post by **RussP** » Feb 1st, '10, 11:29

Boy three things in this post caught my eye Marine Mechanic, Porsche Mechanic and Medical Weed!!! I think I suffer from Anxiety

The marine industry is in sad shape; I've been there. In a few weeks I'm starting a rebuild of a 74 Porsche 911 that we're turning into a track car so I'll try my hand as a Porsche Mechanic.

Years ago I worked in one of the larger Fab Shops on Long Island and had the pleasure of working next to a Brit who was a master fabricator. He always thought that American way was backwards. A guy goes to tech school and calls himself a welder. In Europe you are an apprentice in your field for 4 years before you are a Journeyman. I learned more from old Al in the 2 years than I did going to Teh school and I use the skills almost every day. It seems most young people want instant gratification.

RussP

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Feb 1st, '10, 11:42

Stepping back in time about 7 years, when my grandson was about 3 years old, I gathered all the scraps of wood in my shop, cut them into several uniform shapes and sizes, sanded them, and gave them to him, in a canvas bag my wife made. He used them as blocks. Over the years I would give him a handful more from time to time. When he got older he and I would go into my shop and we would make more. He and his friends played for hours with them. Some of his friends only wanted to play with them.. he built skyscrapers, highways, bridges, garages, airports, houses and lots of other things. They were his most used toys.

When he was 4 a good friend of the family gave him an expensive battery powered toy that was a sort of spiral railroad with a train that ran up and down, with a hopper car that dumped a load of marbles at the top and received them at the bottom. It was colorful, made noise, and had action to watch. The only interaction it required was moving the on/off switch. It cost about $100. My blocks were made of scraps.

Over the years I watched the blocks get dinged, some got a little dirty, and he wrote and drew things on a few. They occasionally appeared in the bathtub, under his bed, in a patch of sand in the back yard, and his lunch box.The battery powered thing went into the attic.. he told my daughter it bored him.

Four years ago, for reasons that don't need to be discussed here, the family decided to try to get him accepted into a highly regarded local private school.. competition for the 3 available spaces was high.. a 3 hour interview with several staff members was required.. parents were excused from the interview.. just the admission officer or the staff member and the child.

At the end of the interview the admissions director called my daughter into her office and told her he was accepted. She said aside from him being courteous and polite (not my strong points to be sure!) he displayed imagination, high creativity, manual dexterity, excellent hand/eye co-ordination, the ability to turn conceptual things into reality, and the ability to invent things. My daughter was thrilled. That night at supper the family was talking about what happened to him in the interview.. what questions did the staff ask, what did he do, etc, etc.

He said the admissions director talked to him a lot about a lot of things, and asked him a lot of questions. Then he said.. she gave me a bunch of blocks and asked me to "build some stuff".. some things she asked for, and then she asked him to build whatever he wanted. He said he built a bunch of things, just like he had been building for years at home. He didn't see why building things was such a big deal.

Who knows.. did his playing with my simple blocks have a part in his being accepted to a good school.. I like to think it might have. Will his being accepted to a good school have a bearing on his being accepted to a better college, probably, if that is the direction he wants to go. Maybe he will be a good machinist, or doctor, or artist, or airplane pilot, or carpenter.. because he had good hand/eye co-ordination, had a good imagination, or had the ability to turn concepts into reality.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Feb 1st, '10, 17:26

Frank,

Very cool... That's what it's all about!

randall · Post by **randall** » Feb 1st, '10, 17:31

.. because he had good hand/eye co-ordination, had a good imagination, or had the ability to turn concepts into reality.

that will work.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Feb 1st, '10, 20:40

Thanks for sharing that with us Frank.......great story....

What I heard was that a grandfather got involved and invested time in a grandson.......

And Patrick......your totally correct...."Thats what its all about"

It just takes a little effort to make a BIG difference in these kids lives

Harry

bertram31.com

Shop class, a thing of the past.

Shop class, a thing of the past.

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