Bertram 63 Sinks Off SC Coast

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 14th, '09, 17:39

BUT...was it because the autopilot was using it as a waypoint. thats a no no. especially in fog.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 14th, '09, 17:53

Carl
its ok, i can hardley, read and if it werent for spell check, well i would just be screwed! :)

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 14th, '09, 22:43

here is the buoy, pictures were taken last week, you be the judge, it is plastic, and the pole coming out the top is PVC with the aluminum radar reflector on it. These photographs do not lie, forget what has been talked about- this is the buoy that is supposed to have taken down that boat?

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:01

Well all i gotta say, is if a plastic buoy took out a 63 Bertram, well Bertram has a real problem with there layup schedule.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:01

Everyone is still assuming he hit the buoy. Who knows what he hit. There could have been a log near the buoy. Anything. Robbie, it is still all speculation until that boat is lifted and they can really take a look at it.

Boats like that just don't come apart. I would have to assume a 63 footer was out in bad stuff before this. Seems very strange. Something had to happen.

Just my thoughts.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:04

He was supposed to have been 1 mile from that buoy, lets just speculate like mature people here, lets think of something he could have hit, that he did not see, that would take down the boat?

I cant think of anything off hand but I know there are very salty people on this board who have seen enough in their time to help us out.

The boat will not be lifted, it has no value as salvage due to the damage.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:06

I do not know if that is the buoy or not, but if it is then shame on Bertram for claiming it took down a 63B. When I was a freshman in high school we used to run around in the 25B we had at the time. I ran fairly hard into the #2 buoy in Fire Island inlet with that boat one day while fishing with 2 buddies. A little scrubbing with scotch brite and no one ever knew. That was a metal buoy, not plastic, so I would expect better from that boat. When they were talking about buoys, I expected this

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:09

Given those pictures and the materials the bouy is made of, I for one, don't think so (with or without the scratch on it). In only 80 ft of water, the truth should be pretty easy to ascertain by competent divers using underwater cameras for documentation.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:10

that is THE buoy, trust me on this one.

I am posting under my company name, I am not doing this to be a shit stirrer.

That red buoy is what I expected to see, not a floating rubbermaid container

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:20

Thanks, Raybo.....picture is worth 1,000 words. So our neat little explanation is blown up. No way that bouy took out anything. I've seen plenty of things offshore that will take down most any pleasure boat, from sunken cargo containers to 60 foot piling floating just below the surface. As Walter says, next step will be some authoritative info on the damage to the boat.

UV

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:23

Out our way, we have the occasional floating log, telephone pole or piling that are almost impossible to see. Hit one at almost any angle and they will usually slide under you and wipe out your running gear, as one did to Dug last year. Hit one end on and it could punch a hole through your hull and maybe even a bulkhead or two depending on your speed. I would expect there would have been a sound at impact though.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 14th, '09, 23:24

I have others I am not going to post at this time out of respect for ALL those involved.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 15th, '09, 08:15

Interesting, Bertram wanted us to know a bouy was hit, yet failed to mention it was a softy...still has a chain holding it in place...but some facts are like no facts. So I'll shut up.

Raybo...Kudo's to you for sticking up for your acquaintances / friends or whatever they may be to you. We all need friends like that!

Carl

PS: When the smoke clears, please let us know what you do. I'd be real curious.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 15th, '09, 08:37

i watched a 25 foot sailboat plow over a buoy like that this summer...didnt even slow it up and i dont think they even realized they hit it.

walter....between little gull island and fishers island there is often a weed line of lumber. everything from 2x4s to 50 foot trees. can be interesting getting through it.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 15th, '09, 08:49

its sticking up for the truth.

When I said earlier if it was one of your own would the tone be different what I was trying to imply was if one of your own said "I DID NOT HIT ANYTHING", would you believe it more then reading someone else's story on the internet through 4-5-6th party ?

I was not even going to get involved until it became very clear blame was being put on the captain 100% and on a personal level no less.

The kicker- the buoy was NAMED, and its a nerf buoy. Well there is the buoy, that picture was taken last week.

Capt Dick Dean · Post by **Capt Dick Dean** » Dec 15th, '09, 10:07

Having been with sail boats most of my boating yrs, it is common for trans Atlantic Ocean sail boats to hit shipping containers. The crew is always lost, the boat some times found and when it is found, the keel has been ripped from the hull.
That being said, I for one will wait for the boat in question to be raised.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 15th, '09, 10:17

it is not going to be raised, it is a total loss and has no value. The transom is gone, the tower is trashed, the forward deck is almost entirely missing, large sections of the hull sides are missing.

The diver on the wreck has already stated there is no damage to the bottom, and that the underwater gear is intact. Actually the bottom of the boat appears to be in the best condition of all .

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 15th, '09, 10:28

Solid glass bottom is fine, but cored upper sections are gone or damaged. HHHMMMM.... is this going to start a cored vs non-cored debate again?

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 15th, '09, 10:30

The amount of stuff offshore to hit seems to be endless. Here is a short list of stuff I have seen in the last couple of years. 500 gal hot water heater(just under surface), front end loader wheel with rim, 65' piling with bolts, 6x6s 20' long about 200 of them(container ships use for blocking) thown over on way out of NYC, roof for a house, wooden staircase 40' long, 55 gallon drums with 2" showing, trees, logs, pallets, ropes, nets. Hit any one of these things and your done. Many of these were just under surface and very hard to see on a good day forget running into the sun or waves.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 15th, '09, 10:50

but the bottom of the boat does not appear to be breached, and the captain has said he did not hit anything.

I agree there are alot of things you CAN hit.

When the photos and videos come out it will speak volumes

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 15th, '09, 11:12

wow, so what you are saying is the boat literaly fell apart, i just cant believe that. But i know its possible. that is just crazy. how does that happen??? we are not talking just delamination, but like total hull failure? like they just broke apart??? i cant wait to see bertrams explination if that is indeed the case.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 15th, '09, 11:36

[quote="Raybo Marine NY"] The transom is gone, the tower is trashed, the forward deck is almost entirely missing, large sections of the hull sides are missing. So what could cause that to happen? The transom is gone? the front deck is gone? crazy!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 15th, '09, 11:48

Brewster Minton wrote:

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Dec 15th, '09, 11:58

EXPLOSION?
While living on a sailboat in Florida I took several friends out for a day sail. We saw in the distance what appeared to be a cardboard box protruding from the water at an angle. Now, having found and salvaged a bail of some of the finest smoking material ever we went to check. It turned out to be the corner of a shipping container with just a corner about a foot out of the water. If a pleasure boat had hit that . . .
However the evidence just submitted, if true, would not indicate a hit from outside.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 15th, '09, 13:26

Does anyone know what the Captain and Mates believe is the cause?
Raybo? can't say?

Just cruising along and she started taking on water
Just cruising along, felt a rumble and started taking on water
Just cruising along, heard a bang and started taking on water
Just cruising along, felt a jolt and started taking on water

There has to be more to this then meets the eye. The more I hear the less sence it makes.

I am really understanding why they lawyered up so quickly.

Maybe Bertram didn't use the Waterproff Glue on these bigger boats.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » Dec 15th, '09, 14:47

Brew, don't forget the huge wooden steel cable spools that float just below the surface. I changed color once when I zipped by one going full out in the Mississippi.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 15th, '09, 21:57

Boats just don't come apart like that. Has to have a good reason. From the description it almost sounds like someone had fun destroying it. Heck, even if Bertram was building half the boat they used to build it's built better than a lot of boats out there.

They just don't come apart like that. Would love to see the pictures. I can't believe a transom just comes off a boat without some type of warning. Heck, that boat had to have cracks all over and water filling the bilge before she came apart.

This is just crazy and the speculation gets crazier.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Dec 16th, '09, 07:49

Tony Meola wrote:Boats just don't come apart like that. Has to have a good reason. From the description it almost sounds like someone had fun destroying it. Heck, even if Bertram was building half the boat they used to build it's built better than a lot of boats out there.

They just don't come apart like that. Would love to see the pictures. I can't believe a transom just comes off a boat without some type of warning. Heck, that boat had to have cracks all over and water filling the bilge before she came apart.

This is just crazy and the speculation gets crazier.

Well, there not supposed to, and in my experience they do not, but something sure as hell happened out there. Those photos of Certifiable delaminating certainly give me pause when I think of what happened there. I think that regardless of Ferretti's best efforts this will not go away until everyone is clear on what the heck went down (pardon the pun) out there.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 16th, '09, 07:54

Just thinking here...

Boat is going to go down stern first as it's the area with the biggest opening to let water in and has the iron...lots of iron.

Bow is like a balloon and traps air so it would point upwards when going down..

Soon as shes underwater the tower rotates to the bottom (heavy with no trapped air) and would hit first followed by the stern...reason for the tower being mangled and the stern taking a hell of a hit on the bottom.

As for the deck coming apart...lots of air trapped in the cabin area..maybe it let loose from the force exerted by the bouyent air. When deck let loose it would allow the boat to sink even faster...more of a reason for transom damage

Of course all speculation by someone who cannot read and decided to shut up a few days ago (cough cough), but could explains some of the problems with the boat being in the condition found on the sea floor.

Still won't explain why she sank.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 16th, '09, 12:10

I've seen situations where the mortgage rubbed against the insurance policy, causing a fire.

UV

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 16th, '09, 12:42

Vicroy wrote:I've seen situations where the mortgage rubbed against the insurance policy, causing a fire.

UV

LOL...yeah me too.

Guy in our marina with a fairly new 48' Stagecoach Carver, Sea Ray or similar went to Worst Marine and picked up a "Deap Sea " fishing pole. Went Offshore Fishing where the unexpected occured...the boat sank in 250+ feet of water.

Thank God he had the fore thought to bring along an inflatable with outboard and plenty of fuel !! He was also able to save several expensive electronic pieces.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 16th, '09, 13:23

the owner of that 63 wrote a check and paid in full, there is some issue with insurance as it seems it was NOT insured.

So logically speaking it would be the craziest case of fraud ever

He even ordered a "spare" set of props- to the tune of $40000, pretty silly to go to that extreme no?

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 16th, '09, 13:45

Back in 2002 a Paul Mann custom charter boat named Sniper hit a container off Va. Beach. it put a big triangular hole in the bow. The boat did not sink only because it had a watertight bulkhead built into it. The Captain had lost a previous boat to underwater damage and was determined not to loose another one. It floated bow down and was towed in stern first.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 16th, '09, 14:45

Many years ago a 40+ foot Sportsfisherman coming to Montauk from offshore on autopilot hit the Great Eastern bouy head on and split it's bow wide open. The only way the captain kept the boat afloat was to run it fast with it's bow up out of the water. I was there when Montauk Marine Basin was called by the Coast Guard to get the travel lift ready. It came through the inlet at speed with horns blowing. Slowed down only when it came to the marina area where it had to make maneuvers to get into the lift. They saved the boat and Montauk Marine eventually made the repairs. I wonder what the bill for that came to?

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 16th, '09, 17:41

did the same thing (not my boat) with the running gear creamed by a rock and the rudder shaft blown out. drove it right into the travel lift. local lobster guy hit a shoal in the middle of the night.......detatched the intake hose to make a working crash valve....and drove her up on the launching ramp at speed...saved his boat.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Dec 17th, '09, 09:24

Yeah, I've seen that too. My old yard had a lobster boat come in with a big hole in the bow. seems the guy was heading out of the Thames River in New London, on auto pilot, with a charter on board. The boat drove into a channel marker. Got over to Noank Village Boatyard and yanked it as she sank.

UV, we call them friction fires...

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 17th, '09, 09:37

Isaw a good one in Montauk years ago. Guys in a 48' sportsfish go sharking 20miles south of the light. Catch a 225# mako and for some reason bring it in the cockpit. Well it goes nuts and rips the chair loose and chases everybody either inside or up on the bridge. One of the guys on the bridge is a cop and pulls his gun out of his bag and fires 6 shots through the shark, and the deck and the bottom of the boat. Well they jammed teeshirts in the holes and ran for the dock. They drove it into the lift at Montauk Marine Basin almost on plain. We all went over to see them come in. There were some big holes.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 17th, '09, 11:00

Brewster Minton wrote:There were some big holes.

Yeah A-holes....

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Dec 17th, '09, 12:51

UV
Second best laugh of the day.

First, which I sent to several of you, was the moose approaching a statue of a buffalo in the first photo: second photo, the moose is sniffing the buffalo's business; third photo, the moose is mounting the buffalo statue. The question was,

"Is this statuetory rape???

Or is It just a moosedemeanour....."

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 17th, '09, 15:09

pictures of the boat sitting on the bottom have been made public

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/gener ... 630-a.html

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Dec 17th, '09, 15:29

Clearly, its the work of the Kraken. Never in me days have I seen such obvious work of the devil Kraken.

Amazing.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 17th, '09, 16:08

Wow! It almost looks like it was hit (or it hit) something that was several feet above the water. Wonder if there was anything found nearby on the bottom. Even so, that doesn't explain (to me, at least) the damage at the transom/rudder and strut, unless whatever it was came around under the boat, caught the strut and rudder, and somehow ripped off the transom. I have never been a fan of coring and the delamination shown here despite the impact, doesn't make feel any better about it. I am shocked at the degree of damage and wonder what the experts will conclude. I am sure you guys will chime in with your thoughts. If someone was running the boat from the bridge and that deck came flying off, he'd sure as hell remember. If it tore off from the water pressure in the sinking process, it doesn't bode well for Bertram. Walter

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 17th, '09, 16:54

the boat went down stern first, it would make sense that the balsa core transom would fail at that time, the strut seems pretty obvious to me- its sitting on it.

Having seen and repaired a 50' Sea Ray that fell out of its travel lift I can tell you that the struts and rudders went right though the bottom of the boat so cleanly it was like a hole was cut out for them.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 17th, '09, 17:06

Wow is all I can say!! Perhaps the anchor got dropped while underway???? Dinged the strut, ripped the rudders and transom off and then yanked the windlass and front deck down through the bow???? I just don't see how that much damage could have been done short of ramming a freighter!!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 17th, '09, 17:09

I have seen that as well, 34' Sea Ray had its anchor deployed while under way, it bounced off the bottom a few times and wrapped itself around the shaft, stopped the transmission, blew it up, and the strut pulled down .

That is a searay- it did not sink

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Dec 17th, '09, 17:14

After finally seeing pictures, there is no way in hell that Buoy did that much damage to a 63' boat no matter what make, cored or not.

But the mention of the bow section missing, and to look at the strut on the starboard side the way its all torn up and the rudder ripped back.

Totally amazing how much damage has been done to that boat. I think this accident raises more questions than answers to me.

I can see why its not worth raising now, those Captain chairs and a few other things looks like the only things worth salvaging.

Rawleigh & Raybo,
The chain pipe is still in tact in the front bow, soooooo that might change that theory?

DQ

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 17th, '09, 17:57

Rawleigh- Your scenario makes sense and explains the high level bow break, the scuffing below the waterline on one side, the missing anchor, rope and chain, the lack of a "hit" sound and going down stern first.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 17th, '09, 18:23

They are paying attention to what everyone is saying, now that the buoy pictures are out they are saying it might have hit that buoy, or another, causing some damage, then the boat running caused the rest.

Just seems that a PVC pipe with a thin aluminum reflector on top would have sustained more damage, at least the reflector would have been bent?

Paint samples show it closely matches the paint on the boat, I wonder if they mean bottom paint or gelcoat? I know that hull is gelcoat with painted boot stripe, the hull is definitely gelcoat.

BCBertie · Post by **BCBertie** » Dec 17th, '09, 19:19

Rawleigh wrote:Wow is all I can say!! Perhaps the anchor got dropped while underway???? Dinged the strut, ripped the rudders and transom off and then yanked the windlass and front deck down through the bow???? I just don't see how that much damage could have been done short of ramming a freighter!!

I agree. The only way I can see to explain the foredeck is the anchor catching on something at speed. I think finding it would help explain a lot...

John

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Dec 17th, '09, 21:52

I received this email from Mike Myers earlier today. You can see posting on other websites. What I can't post are the pictures on the buoy showing damage. It sure is a shame and the "haters" are out in full force.
One of the attached files was pdf of the buoy. It is 161 inches, two feet in diameter, made of foam cored PVC and weighs 200 pounds. It is not a PVC pipe with a radar reflector on top. Maybe someone else got the email and knows how to post the attached files.

Dear Bertram Dealers, Employees, and Friends,

As part of my ongoing commitment to provide you with fact-based information regarding the November 6 sinking of a Bertram 63, I offer this update.

Our main consideration in examining this complex matter â€“ where all the facts are not known â€“ has been to avoid jumping to conclusions. Clearly, once information is presented as â€œfactâ€ and later shown to be wrong, it is nearly impossible to put the toothpaste back in the tube.

That is why we at Bertram are being very careful to say only that which is verifiable and fact-based. And it is why we are concerned that on some internet sites others have published as â€œfactâ€ statements that are not verifiable.

For example, some people are saying that Bertram alleges the yacht that sank hit the Bill Perry Jr. buoy. What we in fact believe is that the yacht sank because it collided with something, possibly the buoy. It has also been stated that this buoy â€œcould notâ€ have caused the damage. They are saying this without the benefit of having physically inspected the buoy closely following the incident or - it seems - knowing much about the physical properties of the buoy.

The buoy in question weighs 200 lbs and has a heavy-duty steel frame. It is 24 inches in diameter with an overall height of 13 feet 5 inches. A total of 6 feet of the buoy is out of the water. A preliminary analysis indicates that the impact between the Bertram traveling at cruising speed and striking the top of this specific buoy in the manner described by the boat captain would occur with between 7,000 and 12,000 lbs of force.

It has also been confirmed that the bow geometry and buoy height would result in the first point of impact occurring above the waterline in the cored section of the hull. Bertram, as most sportfish manufacturers, uses cored hull construction above the waterline for the weight and stiffness benefit while maintaining the impact resistant solid glass below the waterline. Although a hole puncture above the waterline itself does not alone cause a vessel to sink, ensuing extreme hydraulic pressures created by coming off a wave at speed and into another (as described by the captain) would almost certainly open the puncture further resulting in the breach of the hull.

Attached is a photograph of the buoy shortly after the incident occurred. The paint on the buoy has since washed away but we were able to gather samples of the paint from what was obviously a fresh strike on the buoy. Independent laboratory results confirmed that the paint type on the vessel hull was found to match the paint transfer from the buoy to a high degree of scientific certainty. Also attached is the buoy manufacturerâ€™s sketch of the full buoy and a description of its construction.

In short, Bertram continues to believe that the description of the incident made by the captain â€“ who it should be noted did not report to the Coast Guard that he had seen the buoy despite his proximity to it â€“ is consistent with a collision. Examination of the buoy showed matching paint, some damage from impact, and an apparent propeller cut. Preliminary inspection of the boat seemed to verify a hit. Given the force of impact on the cored hull several feet above the bowâ€™s waterline and the captainâ€™s own description of events, collision with this buoy is clearly a possibility.

The assertions we have seen - that the buoy in question could not have caused the damage - do not consider the potential impact on the hull if it was punctured at cruising speed by a metal structure followed by (as described by the captain) burying the bow in a wave. We believe such assertions to be mere speculation and irresponsible.

We also would like to point out that the on-line suggestion that the ownerâ€™s attorney had to get a court order to keep us from salvaging the boat is entirely false. A copy of the Judgeâ€™s order, to which we consented, is also attached.

I intend to continue to provide verifiable fact based information as we learn more about this incident. As always, if you have any questions on this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Michael W. Myers
President
Bertram Yacht Inc.
(305) 633 - 8011

bertram31.com

Bertram 63 Sinks Off SC Coast

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