Bertram 63 Sinks Off SC Coast

Freebird · Post by **Freebird** » Nov 17th, '09, 14:43

I know you guys don't really get into the bigger Berts, but I was wondering if you had any details on this one that went down on 11/06 off Myrtle Beach. It was en route from NY to FL for a delivery, but details are very sketchy. Crew was saved, but the boat went to the bottom.

http://www.thesunnews.com/575/story/1153577.html

http://www.thesunnews.com/classified-ads/ad/661128

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Nov 17th, '09, 15:43

Word is it "hit" something.

Capt's statement was something like "We hit a big thing and were thrown from the boat, watched the boat sink stern first"

Real question is which hull number is it and did it have any issues before this event. At least everyone is OK.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 17th, '09, 16:57

Heres the CG report.

http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/586/377331/

Crew was fairly young 34 and 33.

Scuttlebutt has the crew lawyering up and the boat is in 80' of water. Possible broken shaft. Nobody will know till its raised, if it is.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 17th, '09, 22:26

There are rumors that this was the same one that had delamination problems. Will be interesting to see what really happened.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 18th, '09, 06:32

Tony,
Not the same one that delam'd. Its been confirmed by someone who knows where that boats at.

Theres no record of documentation on this vessel.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Nov 18th, '09, 08:54

Why is it that anyone ever rescued from a sinking, if a life raft was involved is described as "clinging" to a life raft.

Does anyone get in the life raft anymore?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 18th, '09, 10:14

Doug theres two stories afloat.

One is they hit something and got thrown off. Life raft was probably an auto inflate. Fear prevents many folks from doing logical things such as climbing into a raft.

Second one is they were plucked from the sinking vessel by another boat that heard their may day.

As usual not enough information to make a determination at this point.

If the crew is lawyered up, doubt this will be solved soon.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Nov 18th, '09, 10:46

This is what I have been told so far, sounds real but I can not gauruntee the veracity.

Seems the boat was sold here in NY at Surfside 3 (Marine Max) in Lindenhurst. Her name was Absolutely, I think, and she was being delivered to Florida to transport to Europe.

The claim is that a shaft broke and the boat flooded through the shaft log. How they know this I don't know. Why they didn't bung the log I also do not know. But the boat is lying in about 80 feet of water, so I have feeling it will be floated and all will come to light.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Nov 30th, '09, 22:51

just wondering anybody heard anymore on this. my buddy said he read on another board the hull delaminated, like another 63

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Dec 1st, '09, 18:54

Do the owners have any legal right to tell salvors to stay away.

I am sure the authorities could care less as the boat was not stolen and nobody died.

If the owners are not actively raising then do they have a leg to stand on. I am just wondering, I have no idea either way.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 1st, '09, 19:52

Do the owners have any legal right to tell salvors to stay away.

Absolutely... If an owner expressly denies assistance or salvage, then his demand is law.

By requesting assistance to save a vessel, the owner relinquishes his right to the vessel. If he doesn't pay for the tow/salvors services, the vessel can be seized as salvage.

A vessel that is found abandoned can be salvaged only if there is no record of the owner denying salvage. The owner in this case is clearly stating that no one has salvage rights other than someone he appoints.

The only way any governmental agency could get involved is if the vessel was a hazard to shipping or other vessels, such as sinking in the middle of the ICW. Then the owner would be given an opportunity to have the vessel removed by a salvor of his choice within a specified time frame, (maybe as short a time as immediately), after which time the agency can appoint a salvor of their choice.

scot · Post by **scot** » Dec 2nd, '09, 12:58

From my salvage days...if a boat is on the bottom the owner (or insurance company) remained liable, and therefore still retained ownership. If a vessel is floating with no one aboard, the vessel is considered abandoned and is anyone's for the taking.

That's the way I recall maritime salvage law?

A few back we had a few guys crawl onboard a ship off the Texas coast that was abondoned because of a fire....they called the USCG and claimed the ship under salvage laws. If I recall the owner's had to buy the ship back from them.

But keep in mind when you claim ownership..you are liable for the damages a vessel could cause.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 2nd, '09, 13:10

A few back we had a few guys crawl onboard a ship off the Texas coast that was abondoned because of a fire....they called the USCG and claimed the ship under salvage laws. If I recall the owner's had to buy the ship back from them.

That's exactly why an owner MUST go on record immediately as deneying assistance or salvage. A lot of so called salvors are only a frog hair from being pirates... An owner "On Record" can bargain with & commission a reputable salvor. Otherwise he's bent over a barrel by whoever's johnny on the spot...

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 2nd, '09, 13:34

No salvage rights unless the owner calls for help, period. No "finders-keepers", period. The salvor must save the vessel, not just happen upon it. The vessel remains the property of the owner under any circumstance, and ownership can only be transfered by the final judgment of a federal court.

99.9% of the "salvage law" rumors are just urban legend.

UV

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Dec 2nd, '09, 20:27

Thank You Vic! I was about to blow a gasket due to "shananigans" overload.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 8th, '09, 21:36

From Bertram Yachts 12/07/2009

Dear Bertram Employees, Dealers, and Friends,

I am writing to provide some additional information on the unfortunate November 6th sinking of a Bertram 63 off the coast of South Carolina.

As I indicated earlier, I am committed to providing complete and up-to-date information as the investigation progresses and details emerge. During this time, I am devoting my full attention to this matter.

The key points I want to convey about the incident are:

=== Most importantly, the captain and his friend/passenger were safely taken off the boat without injury.

=== While tropical storm force currents initially complicated the search, the sunken boat was finally located recently in approximately 80 feet of water a short distance from the rescue point.

=== The initial data we received --- from the boatâ€™s captain, from eye-witnesses who arrived on the scene to aid in the rescue, and from analysis of the debris in the water --- clearly indicated that the boat hit something in the water.

=== All new information collected since the event, further supports an apparent collision with something in the water.

=== There is substantial evidence that the Bill Perry Reef Buoy at the location of the incident was recently struck with significant force.

=== An examination of the boat by divers at its resting point reveal that the starboard rudder shaft is bent aft and the starboard propeller exhibits a substantial ding consistent with that propeller hitting something in the water.

=== The extensive damage to the bow portion of the craft is also consistent with an impact of significant force that could have breached the hull and created an unrecoverable scenario.

It is important to note that these are only preliminary findings based on a first dive of the craft. Other details may be uncovered as investigators begin the intensive work of piecing back together the events that led to the sinking of this vessel.

We feel that it is important to keep you up to date on the findings and will continue to update you on the facts surrounding this accident as they come available.

Please feel free share this information with all parties you feel may benefit from the information.

And if you have any questions or comments on this matter, please contact me at +1 305 633 - 8011 or Michael.Myers@Bertram.com.

Regards,

Michael W. Myers
President
Bertram Yacht Inc.
(305) 633 - 8011

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 9th, '09, 09:15

hit what?

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 9th, '09, 09:40

The bouy, that's their story & they are sticking to it.....

UV

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Dec 9th, '09, 14:53

Piloting 101: Enter the coordinates for the waypoint (buoy) that you intend to navigate to, set your autopilot, and sit back and enjoy the ride.

Piloting 102: Be sure to remember that a steel target (buoy) is known to be in the general vicinity of the waypoint entered (buoy location).

I'll be the first to admit that I've been inexcusably "asleep at the switch" in various situations, but had the good fortune not to have a collision with a floating object. Of course rule # 1 is to always have a watchstander on duty. I have had some "daytime" near misses with telephone poles and shipping containers that were floating at or just under the surface that could not be seen until we were right on top of them. No telling how many near-misses we've all encountered at night that we'll never know about. Glad the crew was rescued.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 9th, '09, 15:35

Tommy wrote:Piloting 101: Enter the coordinates for the waypoint (buoy) that you intend to navigate to, set your autopilot, and sit back and enjoy the ride.

I prefer to enter coordinates a bit to the safe side of my intended targets.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 10th, '09, 07:54

You get what you pay for in a crew like anything else.

No wonder the crew lawyered up so quick.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Dec 10th, '09, 08:56

Sim, my point exactly!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Dec 10th, '09, 09:17

Tommy I am with you 100%.

Three years ago I hit a submerged tree. It hit only my running gear. It did significant damage and ended my season early. It was easily a few feet longer than 11' as it was definately wider than my boat. And it was at least 1.5' thick. I wish I had had a camera on board. At the time, I was more concerned with the condition of the boat.

While a tree of that type should not kill a 63' boat, I can see how something could get hit hard, and kill a boat.

As an aside, I absolutely hate running at night as a result of a collision that happened in broad daylight and bright sun.

Never saw it.

Dug

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 10th, '09, 09:22

10+ years ago there was a picture of a live aboard dive boat that had run head on into the a buoy and sank! It was strange to see the bouy right there at the bow of the boat! Good auto pilot and GPS! Bad navigational practices!! Then there was the picture of the go fast with the buoy all the way back to the bulkhead!

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Dec 10th, '09, 09:29

I hit a whale shark 4 years ago in calm seas 10 miles out at 18knts. Drove the strut through the bottom of the boat and I almost sank if I did not have extra pumps. I might as well hit a brick wall. Almost threw me out of my chair. I was watching out the window and never saw anything till it was over.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 10th, '09, 15:57

Bruce wrote:You get what you pay for in a crew like anything else.

No wonder the crew lawyered up so quick.

that captain runs boats back and forth to Florida all the time, for many years he has been doing it, tradition carried on from his father who also has been doing it for years. What makes you think the crew was so cheap and careless?

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 10th, '09, 16:23

speaking from experience.................you can do something professionally for years and be damn good at it. you can continue to do it on occasion for many more years........and one day....once....you are distracted and overconfident and WHAM!!!!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 10th, '09, 17:22

and that would make you human, and would make it a accident

if I crashed a 1.8 million dollar boat I think I would consult a attorney as well.

Boat was going from New York to Florida, then I believe Dubai.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 10th, '09, 18:40

What makes you think the crew was so cheap and careless?

The first clue would be the boat sitting in 80 feet of water with a sea bouy dent in the bow according to the report.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 10th, '09, 23:46

i guess that is what insurance is for..
gosh, can you imagine how awkward that phone call was "fred..um i got some bad news bout your boat"

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 11th, '09, 09:43

if it was one of your own from this board im sure the tone would be different.

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Dec 11th, '09, 13:04

if it was one of your own from this board im sure the tone would be different.

Doubt it.

Even board members don't get passes, you've been here long enough to know that.

Not called the mean team for nuthin'

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 11th, '09, 14:09

Just the opposite here unlike many other forums.

Life ain't a game and personal responsibility doesn't fall under the "well we're all human" excuse.

If that sea bouy had been a small boat, someone would be DEAD.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 11th, '09, 16:05

Raybo Marine NY wrote:if it was one of your own from this board im sure the tone would be different.

If it was me on my boat and I hit a floating highly visible Buoy...I'd still be calling myself a mindless Arse-Hole.

That is not to say I haven't made stupid mistakes...I mean real stupid ones...but I have been lucky or at least somewhat lucky in most cases.

Now if the buoy was submerged and it was struck...well thats a differnet story.

Then again situations may have been present which may add some light on what actually happened. Won't know until the facts come out.

What kind of "situation" would make a Captain ram into a buoy...

A situation such as we had here a few years ago, where we had a Ferry Captain Pass Out and rammed his Ferry into the Slip...lots of people hurt.

Or

Maybe "Jaws" grabbed the buoy's chain and the buoy went under for a few brief minutes till the boat was just about on it's location and "Jaws" let go of the buoy allowing the buoy to hit the oncoming boat.

Maybe it was a submarine...

Maybe it was the Autopilot set for the buoy and the Captain nodded off and this was one time the Autopilot, GPS and Buoy location where all Dead Nuts On.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 12th, '09, 02:17

Bruce wrote:You get what you pay for in a crew like anything else.

No wonder the crew lawyered up so quick.

The above comment is not justified because no one knows the captain or the crew aboard that vessel. No one knows how much they were paid or how experienced they were or even what really happened.

Accidents do happen even to highest paid, most experienced people.

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Dec 12th, '09, 13:21

Even board members don't get passes, you've been here long enough to know that.

Especially the Faithful (board members). We'd rather piss one off than give bad or, worse, no advice. One of the reasons we're here. Sure saved my bacon a few times.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 12th, '09, 15:34

I have typed up 5 different responses
Im just going to let this one go and lets hope that one day we can see photographs of that boat.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 13th, '09, 09:02

Raybo Marine NY wrote:I have typed up 5 different responses
Im just going to let this one go and lets hope that one day we can see photographs of that boat.

This is not the place to hold back, I'd like to hear from a different perspective.

Mechanincal / Electrical failure, fatigue & bad judgement are the ones that keep playing in my head.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 13th, '09, 09:11

you can be the most self sufficient, competent, personally responsible person in the world........and still screw up. pride go'eth before the fall. (or something like that)

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 13th, '09, 11:19

Accidents do happen even to highest paid, most experienced people

Accidents and negligence are two different things. Someone who knows better not to do something, yet does it anyway and suffers or others suffer from it is negligence to me at least.

A prime example for me in this point happened Sat morning. I was taking an 80' motor yacht out for a sea trial to check on the corrected engine aglinment I just did. The Maintenance guy at the marina where the boats at just did an oil and fuel filter change.

Sat AM saw 25 knot winds. I started and was running the engines when the maintenance guy who went with me wanted to get moving to get back. I said no, I;m waiting to check on the engines after the maintenance. About 5 minutes in both engine came to a halt. The guy had forgotten to open the racor fuel valves.

Had I kicked off the lines and got moving I would have been right in the midst of a bunch of multi million dollar yachts including Tiger Woods 20 million dollar yacht not to mention the value of the boat I was on.

The engines would have quit and I would have been in deep shit. Now many would have called this an accident. Not me. I knew what had just been done and it would have been negligence on my part not to check and make sure everything was fine with those engines before I pulled out of the slip.

An accident is someone like a little kid not knowing running a razor blade across your fingers will cut them, yet does it.

Getting behind the wheel of a car drunk and killing a bunch of people cause you ran a red light is not an accident.

I've been on and run boats for 35 years. I've encountered just about any failure that could happen to a boat while under way. I find it very hard to fathom that any type of failure would allow a boat to hit a bouy at full steam.

Even if the steering had failed, you don't play chicken or head right at objects hoping to turn at the last moment. This way if the steering has failed it allows you to react by cutting the throttle and reversing the boat away from the object. If you are paying attention that is.

Again my opinion is based on the current prelim report Pat posted and the initial report of the crew stating they hit something.

Randall,
I don't think pride had anything to do with your incident.

With the talent you have, your one of the most humble persons I've met.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 13th, '09, 12:14

actually in the two seconds before i fell i was patting myself on the back for how i had completely overcome my childhood fear of heights. ironic.

thanks....but humility is not really my strong suit. ask my wife.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Dec 13th, '09, 12:36

sim wrote: This is not the place to hold back, I'd like to hear from a different perspective.

Mechanincal / Electrical failure, fatigue & bad judgement are the ones that keep playing in my head.

the scenario I have in my head is more based on information I have gathered from the local sources who know this boat and the captain.

in time lets hope it all comes out and practice some restraint.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » Dec 13th, '09, 12:55

Jesse Jackson was addressing a classroom of children that were in the middle of an english lesson so he decided to chime in.

He asked the class if they knew the difference between an ACCIDENT, a TRAGEDY or a GREAT LOSS.

Little Bobby raised his hand and said that he lived on a farm....and that if his dad ran over his dog with a tractor....that would be a TRAGEDY.

Mr Jackson responded that his answer was incorrect......in reality it would be considered an ACCIDENT.

Then Suzie raised her hand to speak.....she said that if a plane crashed into a busy street........that would be a TRAGEDY

Once again Mr Jackson said that the answer was incorrect....that would be considered a GREAT LOSS.

Then Little Johnny raised his hand......He said that if the airplane on which Mr Jackson was riding was shot down by a missile.....then that would be a TRAGEDY.

Mr Jackson applauded Johnny and said that he was entirely correct, but went on to ask Johnny how he came to his conclusion.

At which Johnny replyed......well after thinking about it I decided that it would not be a GREAT LOSS and sure as hell it would not be an ACCIDENT....
________________________________

Randall......sorry that you will miss snowboarding this winter but I am sure you will be surfing again next summer......get well buddy

H

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Dec 13th, '09, 13:15

Bruce wrote:

My whole point is that we dont know if it was an accident or negligence. We dont know if the boat fell apart or not. The information that we have is all from unreliable and third party reports. The crew from the start has always claimed that they did not hit anything. They were there. But people continue to point fingers at them with no evidence other than wild internet reports.

I dont know if they hit a buoy or not. I dont know if it was an accident or neglect but my point is that you dont either. It could turn out that they were drinking and smacked the buoy head on, or that boat was a terd and came part in 4fters, it does not change my point that you are jumping to conclusions based on poor information.

Capt Dick Dean · Post by **Capt Dick Dean** » Dec 13th, '09, 18:23

Maybe 30 yrs ago on my sail boat, a red buoy ran right into me in the Great South Bay. I was day dreaming --- you can do that traveling at 4 knts

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 13th, '09, 21:57

I had a damn telephone poll jump infront of my truck once, who knew they could move that fast.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 14th, '09, 09:25

Edit:

Never mind, I am totally wrong here. I'd delete this post and go stick my face in the sand, but too late...it's been seen and commented on already.

Edit

Vicroy wrote:The bouy, that's their story & they are sticking to it.....

UV

I have re-read the post and other then this reference I do not see where it is claimed "A buoy" was struck...maybe UV has more info or it was tongue in cheek,

...but I'm thinking if Bertram knew the boat hit a buoy they would mention it...shouldn't be that difficult to tell if a buoy was struck by a 63' boat cruising along at a nice clip...it would be the one with all the gelcoat over it and a nice big gouge. Also a pretty good chance a diver would be able to pick up on the ear-marks of a boat that struck a bouy too.

I'm sort of being swayed back to what Raybo-Marine is saying...maybe it is not there fault...maybe it was somethig submerged that even the most vigelent Captain would miss. A cargo container just below the surface could take down a boat without a doubt...could be missed under the right conditions.

I'll be dammed if I wasn't cruising one time with my eyes peeled to the water and hit something pretty good. It was a flat calm day never saw a thing before I hit and never saw anything come up after I hit. Sometimes your just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Or maybe they did hit a bouy and I missed it...

*** Edit ***

yeah I missed it, right there in the Bertram report plain as day...UV is right, I owe ya a drink when we meet. Carl

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Dec 14th, '09, 11:44

I picked up on the mention in the Bertram Yacht, Inc. statement that the bouy showed evidence of a recent hit and it was stationed about where the boat went down.....my keen college trained investigative mind put two and three together.....speculation is an opinion based on no evidence, a guess is based on minimal information, but information that makes logical sense, so a bouy exhibiting evidence of a recent hit in the location where the boat went down indicates the boat may have hit something more substantial than a beer can......the hole in the bow area was a tip off as well. See why the crooked bankers are so gald I'ze be'ze retired?

yo Fren'

UV

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 14th, '09, 11:44

not to cause more sh*t, but
=== There is substantial evidence that the Bill Perry Reef Buoy at the location of the incident was recently struck with significant force.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 14th, '09, 12:07

CaptPatrick wrote:From Bertram Yachts 12/07/2009

=== There is substantial evidence that the Bill Perry Reef Buoy at the location of the incident was recently struck with significant force.

I obviously cannot read...

Guess I should not try to work and do sleuth work at the same time.

Seeing how I can't read, maybe I should just go home now.

Sorry UV,.my apologizes I stand corrected

He hit the dam buoy with the boat.

Carl

bertram31.com

Bertram 63 Sinks Off SC Coast

Bertram 63 Sinks Off SC Coast

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