New 31' Owner wants diesel advice

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Nov 16th, '09, 17:44

Cummins or Yanmars? I'm sure no ones ever asked this before?! :-D

Glad to be an owner finally and not just watching you guys anymore..

1968 31' FBC
http://www.foxyachtsales.com/core/listi ... =foxyachts&

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Nov 16th, '09, 18:27

Search function is your friend.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cummins+ ... tram31.com

Cummins guys like cummins, yanmar guys like yanmars and volvo guys like volvos and neither the three shall agree.

They're all good, I used all three in 31's and all worked well.

Much depends on your local dealer who will install and what they carry along with pricing.

Cummins is the only one of the three to offer factory remans (wink, wink).

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Nov 16th, '09, 18:29

Pretty boat. Needs a pair of Cummins 6BTA 330s and a 6.5 kw. Phasor genset.

UV

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 16th, '09, 19:13

i agree with vic roy and his choice .with this economy pick up boat and harbor under diesel engines cummins 330 hp 11,000 a piece reman.where are you boating?

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Nov 16th, '09, 19:20

I'm on the Texas Coast out of Port Aransas. genset on the planning table as well although i've heard you can run an A/C off a inverter?

ed c. · Post by **ed c.** » Nov 16th, '09, 19:31

In Real Estate there are 3 key things to go by, location, location & location.

In the diesel world the 3 key things to go by is service, service & service.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 16th, '09, 19:35

this is one of those rare situations where a person like you can benifit from political suicide. remember that past president ---(clinton) well on his way out he sigh a free trade agreement with mexico. good news for you and bad news for many.cummins assembles brand new engine in a elaborate plant in mexico then ships them to the us as reman. with two years warrantee. the good news is the price and quality blows away yanmar (we are yanmar dealers) the bad news is the tumbleweed in detroit with thousands of jobs lost to the fact of assenbly of cars and trucks in mexico with no inport taxes. as thing stand you only have one choice in the 330 to 370 hp power plant conversion. you can get any part in your hand in 24 hours in texas.

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Nov 16th, '09, 21:09

I dont have a lot of experience but cummins parts are pretty reasonably priced and there are plenty of aftermaket parts for cummins B-series. The B-series are very common and for good reason.

Yanmars are excellent engines as well and I believe are a more compact design than the cummins. You do not have as many avenues to get parts though and I am sure they are not cheap.

Volvos, if you are talking TAMD series are pretty heavy in the power to weight ratio I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think they are good engines just a little underpowered for their weight.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 16th, '09, 21:50

First you need to figure out what your budget is and just what you want in performance and maintence. I thnk Bob is a little light on his numbers but he is right, Cummins is cheaper if you go with the remans.

Yanmar and Volvos will cost more than the reman Cummins. I just put the 270's in mine and I am happy with the performance. The 330 remans which might now be called 315 cost a couple of grand more per side. So for about 2 to 3 more knots on the cruise and maybe 5 knots on the top end you need to decide how much you want to spend and what you expect in performance.

The Yanmars would have cost me about 10 grand more, including transmissions than the reman cummins. 10 grand sold me along with the fact that I could not find anyone who said any thing bad about the Cummins dealer. Believe me I checked around. Now when I asked about the Yanmar dealer in my area I got another story.

In the end, service from the dealer would not have mattered, as the Cummins dealer now also handles Yanmar.

Knowing I am not getting taken for a ride is also important in the decision making.

Good luck.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Nov 17th, '09, 07:24

My .02.
Service and parts...

Then if you are going to keep that high tower and your still on the fence...I'd go with the heavier motor.

Welcome aboard, pretty boat!

Carl

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Nov 17th, '09, 08:37

It really comes down to the best service vendor in your area. They are all good engines.

But where you get your service will last much longer than the sale.

Can you trust them?

Will they do what they say and stand behind it?

Will they return your phone calls?

Are they good people?

That will define your choice.

Dug

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Nov 17th, '09, 09:04

you guys are good! thanks.

someone mentioned the tower......if I was starting from scratch I wouldn't build buy a tower........but going with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" strategy I was thinking i'd just leave it. Not sure I could cut the top off and make it look appealing. Does anyone think theres a market out there for a used tower? In terms of speed what do you think it costs the boat? 2-3 knots??

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Nov 17th, '09, 10:29

What Vic said. I have 6BTA 300's. Love'em!
Agree on the service aspect. If you can turn a wrench the Cummins seem easier to service.
Just my biased opinion.

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Nov 17th, '09, 10:57

You cannot run a/c off an inverter for more than a few minutes without killing the batteries, even with a h.d. alternator. My experience is that Phasor makes (actually, assembles) far and away the best generators. A 6.5 kw "pancake" (short) set driven by a 3 cyl. Kubota diesel turning at 1,800 rpm is smooth as silk and needs no sound box. It fits nicely on the outboard side of the port 6BTA and balances the galley and head on the FBC. I've had various makes of gensets, both gas and diesel, in boats over the past 50 years or so, and the 3 cyl. Kubota is head and shoulders above everything else. My B31 FBC came to my Stewardship in the early 90s with a single cyl. Farryman diesel that was a diaster - it shook itself to ruin at 3600 rpm....I replaced it with a 5.5 Phasor 3 cyl. that ran flawlessy for 10 years. It was destroyed in Hurricane Katrina in 2005 and replaced with the 6.5 kw which is actually a little smaller than the 5.5 and has a slightly larger displacement 3 cyl. Kubota engine. The 6.5 is STRONG......big a/c kicking on does not even make it hickup.

Go ahead and budget a genset - you really can't enjoy your boat on the Gulf Coast without one to crank out that a/c.

Likewise with engines, I've had pretty much the range of stuff over the years that would fit in a B31 and the Cummins 6B series is just way superior in simplicity, reliability, and economy (parts, they's be'z cheap vs. Yannie or Vulva that they sell with a ski mask and blue steel revovler.

UV

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Nov 17th, '09, 11:01

That's Rob Crombie's former boat. He moved it there for the ethanol free fuel. Great job and a fine boat.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Nov 17th, '09, 11:39

I don't disagree with anything shared above. With that said, the Yanmar 6LP 315 HP served me superbly for nine years. Quiet, very smooth and very fast (honest 30 knot cruise; no tower). If I did it again, I would go the Yanmar route again.

Tommy

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Nov 17th, '09, 12:00

My only issue with a tall tower on a 31 is the rocking when drifting or trolling a beam sea...and I hate heights, but thats another story.

More weight down low counters the weight up high. Not a huge differnce but as I said with everything else being equal it may help tip the scale.

Here's another "tip the scale" factor, inverters won't charge your batteries, only drain them.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Nov 17th, '09, 18:24

The only thing i can chime in on is the Kubota 3 cylinder diesel, Have a like 1978 model in a little tractor, runs like a top. bro runs a Kubota gen set on his 50ft snapper boat. and they are reasonably priced.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Nov 17th, '09, 18:26

The only thing i can chime in on is the Kubota 3 cylinder diesel, Have a like 1978 model in a little tractor, runs like a top. bro runs a Kubota gen set on his 50ft snapper boat. and they are reasonably priced.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 17th, '09, 19:28

tommy do you do your own maintenance on those yanmars?

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Nov 18th, '09, 11:04

Capt. Bob,

A friend at the marina who is full-time diesel mechanic performed the regular services (oil, filters, engine zincs) while my brother or I would assist (by assist I mean watch and ask a lot of questions). Even though there is a Yanmar dealer in my area, I invited our own expert mechanic, Bruce himself, to come up a few years ago and perform some factory recommended adjustments on the valves. Knowing nothing about the local Yanmar folks, it was worth it to me to import Bruce 'cause I knew he would do things right.

Last week I got an email from James, the gentleman from Monaco who bought the boat last spring, and he said Island Girl (now named Orca) had performed flawlessly all summer on the Med. James said there is a Yanmar dealer there in Monte Carlo, so he's happy with the motors as well.

Tommy

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Nov 18th, '09, 11:56

Bob,

I do my own oil and zinc changes on my Yanmar 240's. I draw the line there.

My guys (Bayside Diesel in Mystic) are fantastic. They tell me what I can handle and what I can't, because they know me. I participated in the re-power pretty deeply, and earned their trust.

I trust them, they admit when they make a mistake, because everyone does at one time or another, and they fix it.

They also do what they say they will, and I know I will not be taken advantage of. That is worth its weight in gold to me.

They are good guys.

I considered Cummins for the repower, and respect the engines very much. They are good. But there is no factory service in the Mystic, CT area, and that was enough for me.

Plus I like the quiet, smooth performance of my Yanmars, and really think they act like gas engines, but push, and drink like the diesels they are. Great engines.

Dug

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Nov 18th, '09, 20:16

U V do you have any pictures of that phasor genset in AJ? I made the mistake of putting in the 3.5 phasor. It runs at 2800 and sounds like a jackhammer. Do you have a lift muffler? The 3.5 is a one lunger and very hard to fire up. I ingested raw water into it while trying to start it.It also lives on the port outside engine.Do you have a hard time changing the raw water impellar? Am ready to toss this genset but not sure what to replace it with. I also have 6bta's. Thanks in advance Russ

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Nov 18th, '09, 20:39

Russ, yeah I have pix, send me an email at royvictor@cox.net and I'll shoot you some.

The Farryman one lunger that was in the boat when I got it in the early 90s was so loud the prior owner had put two in-line mufflers in the exhaust line and it was still like a machine gun. I left both in place and the exhaust note is only a "whoosh", no exhaust noise at all with either the 5.5 or the 6.5.

The 6.5 has pretty much everything on the stb. side of it making it real easy to service, and it comes with an oil pan valve and pump-out hose for ease of oil changes. On my old 5.5 I was unsure where I was going to mount it and had Phasor put dipsticks on both sides...they still call me "double dipstick Vic".....the spin on oil filter on the 5.5 was on the port side - between the genset and the hull side and a bitch to change...you had to take the alternator off to do it and I was going to install a remote oil filter....but the 6.5 solved that problem and the filter is on the stb. side and a snap to get at, as is the spin on fuel filter.

The Phasor ad in the latest Boats & Harbors lists the 6.5 at $7,640...Next Gen,which is run by a guy that used to be with Phasor, and the two companies sell each other's stuff, lists a 2 cyl. 5.5 kw Kubota powered set with heat exchanger for $6,075 and a 7 KW 3 cyl. Kubota HE model for $7,050. I'm not familiar with the Next Gen sets I just mentioned, but they built me a 21 KW industrial set with a 4 cyl. Kubota engine and an outdoor enclosure I have here at home and its first class all the way. Take a look at both websites, www.nextgenerationpower.com and www.phasormarine.com

UV

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Nov 19th, '09, 08:20

HELP!

What might the gear ration on my BW Velvet Drives connected to Crusader 454's be?

I googled previous posts and my best guess is 1.5:1.

I can't find a plate and don't know where the markings might be under all the paint!

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Nov 19th, '09, 09:19

What size are your present props and what are your rpm's at WOT. Velvet drives CAN be 1:1, or at least mine were on my Chryslers years back.

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Nov 19th, '09, 16:35

survey only says 17 inch bronze props. boat has sat for awhile. I spent 2 hours underwater scraping, i'd still consider the bottom "dirty", but i'm turning up 3200-3300 rpm....19-21 knots

scenarioL113 · Post by **scenarioL113** » Nov 19th, '09, 19:10

If you do not have a gear plate tag, you may be able to turn the input shaft one full turn (in forward) and see how much the output turns. It may work. I was able to confirm a 1.88:1 velvet drive one time this way.

That particular unit was on the floor in my garage though, not in the boat or connected to an engine.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Nov 19th, '09, 20:35

I would suspect those engines should turn up higher than that at WOT. Enjoy the boat as it is for now. At some time you're going to have to haul. At that time you will find the pitch on the props as the numbers should be stamped on the wheel hubs. I'd suspect you may be a bit overpropped if the engines are performing properly. If you can't find a transmission plate or number, that will also be the time to figure out it's gear ratio. Walter

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 19th, '09, 20:50

the 330hp cummins reman can still be had for 11,000 per copy add barry mounts, starboard oil filter relocation,port fuel filter relocation and port oil dip stick bracket,and shipping from north carolina. gears are also available.gears are $3500 new and $2000 used with warantee.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 19th, '09, 22:17

My 75 had the 454 Mercs in them and the borg warners were 1.5:1 spinning a 18x19 prop. A friend used to have a 68 that had the chrysler's and he spun a 17 in prop but the tranny was still 1.5:1 if this helps.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 19th, '09, 22:20

Bob

When I purchased my 270 remans, and I called around to other NJ Cummins dealers, the dealer I purchased mine off of had the best price I could find, they came in at around 18 a piece with gauges and harness, the 3500 for the tranny.

I know that is right on the mark as another board member who put the 270's ion his, from a different dealer in NJ paid almost the same price about 2 years before me.

Is that 11 your price as a dealer? Seems to good to be true.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 19th, '09, 23:36

yes he appears to be a large dealer i have never been there in person nor have first hand knowlege of a friend making a purchase. wesco on long island is our sourse for cummins engines and the major northeast distributor is metro power whom has at least 10 6bta in stock at any given time and every single part in stock and available instantly or fed- x red same day.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 19th, '09, 23:42

i paid 17,400 for mine with all extra`s including barry mounts except no gauges,exhaust elbows.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 20th, '09, 23:09

Bob

Mine ran a little more than that but that also included, guages, block heaters, harness, oil change hand pump on the engine. I have the 270's and I ordered them two years ago and probably a couple of price increases after you purchased yours.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 20th, '09, 23:23

tony mine are 2006 and block heaters alone are two hundred dollars plus gauges. i had to paid $500.00 per engine for warantee review because we are not a cummins dealer.prior to that i had yanmars in boat.at 250hp they left something to be desired when climbing big waves in the canyon they would get to the crest and accelerate (due to the charecteristics of a high speed diesel) down the back side of the big rollars. i was looking for the break pedal!!!

ed c. · Post by **ed c.** » Nov 21st, '09, 20:27

Capt. Lico, did you have to change your exhaust size at the stern. I was looking at Cummins 41/2 yrs. ago, but I had questions about service. The people that installed my engines ( 315 yanmars ) were the highest rated by Mack Boring.
My previous engines were Volvos , which I inherited from the seller, saying the local Volvo service guy in my area is bad is an overstatement.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 21st, '09, 21:33

ed i changed the exhaust from 4" which i use with the yanmars to 6" for the 330 cummins.as far as service goes i would go with reverse metality!to service your yanmars (change filters) i would look to find a small engine mechanic (snow blower,yard machines , so on and so forth. due to the fact that detroit and the rest of the world did away with canister filters around 1968 and yanmars are produce by the parent compary that made the jap zero they probaly have a vendetta i have no other explanation.reality tells me a marine mechanic is not goung to climb out of the hold walk to the petro waste area dump the filter then go to the maint. building and put the fuel canister in the parts cleaner walk back to the boat and install filter. get a grip! he will just put the new filter in the canister with grit at the bottom and bolt it on.the rest of the world uses screw on filters incidently, at half the price!! there are many other stories but take a real go look at the exhaust elbow and tell me "whats wrong with this picture" as you can see the sales came to a halt on 400 plus hp. caterpillar blew them away with there new series and cummins the rest up to 600hp were man took a large piece of the pie.

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Nov 22nd, '09, 08:31

bob- can you give me the contact info for your North Carolina cummins reman source. thanks - Jay

Bill Mckinnon · Post by **Bill Mckinnon** » Nov 22nd, '09, 09:55

I just did the repower and went with the Yanmars. A little more money but with it in the long run. Easy maintance and take up a little less room. I am getting 32k WOT and crusiing at 26. They are great on fuel. The Cummins were a little less money but have been screwed by them one to many times.

Captiain Bill McKinnon
Charleston SC

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Nov 22nd, '09, 10:00

jay i will try to keep this post short but normally if i leave something out i get a slew of e-mail.# 1 rebuilt yanmars 6lp- 315hp match pair comes with gears complete package all you have to do is get credit for exhaust elbow and marine manifold corp. makes them in ss.fuel canister replacement with 1quart screw on like cummins,caterpillar,from moreland hose. and remove fan belts and replace with mercedes serpitine .ph.( 786)522-7856 or cell 954-708-4871
cummins bobtail 6bta-330 hp $11,000 (561) 723-6016 use twin disc.or zf 220 irm in ratio 1.53 to one puchase sae. adapter with gears! (781) 837-5424 about $3800 for the pair.

ed c. · Post by **ed c.** » Nov 23rd, '09, 07:03

As more of these Yanmars are installed, the public is getting secure with them. They were underestimated by many folks.
All I can say if they were not good, Hinkley would not be installing them on their boats.
I have no bias, I just wanted dependable service, which I have gotten.

gplume · Post by **gplume** » Dec 5th, '09, 10:22

Fishhook-

I take a lot of ribbing for my tower....but to be honest, I like the looks.....Ok...I'm patial, what can I say.

Plus a great place to watch the 4th of July fireworks from.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 5th, '09, 11:15

is that last shot montauk harbor entrance the day walter and i saw you?

Marlin · Post by **Marlin** » Dec 5th, '09, 15:59

Considering a marlin tower on my project so I could clear an inlet, will a tower help or hinder theresale ability, would go with a 1/2 tower for sure, with navionics mounted inoverhead box, so I can see them in the sunlite, pros and cons are welcome

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 5th, '09, 16:31

giff great looking shot of the boat! i like the tower makes the 31 bertram look alot bigger then it is . the trasom is also unique and looks great.

luis · Post by **luis** » Dec 5th, '09, 16:43

Hi Gplume , I like that bath platform and the way you do it, moving it up. Do you have any sketch or drawing or photo that enlight me to do something like that. I like to have one like that cause sometimes is not very good to have it fixed due to the waves. Thanks

fishlook · Post by **fishlook** » Dec 5th, '09, 20:42

hey gplume-

what do you have for power? what speed/economy......

jay

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Dec 6th, '09, 07:49

Gif, Great pics, next summer we use the tower for fishing "purposes", my offer still stands...BH

gplume · Post by **gplume** » Dec 6th, '09, 21:29

Jay- You don't want what I have for power ...2 OEM Cummins 504's - Naturally aspirated 195-210 HP a piece depending on which manual you beleive, 1973 vintage, thus probably a lot less power due to age (just like me).. Top speed around 20-21 knots. I cruise around 16, and burn 15 gallons an hour or so at that speed.

The one good thing...with all the weight..nice ride.

Randall-
Yup, Mantauk coming in last year was the inlet picture.

On the tower...Its there, so its not coming off. As Bob L noted, makes the boat look bigger so from that aspect I like it, and for sure it makes the boat look unique. It is an unbeleiveable pain in the rear to take off and put on...thus it stays on. I took it off to bring the boat to my house for some work. Tranporting the boat was a piece of cake...but the tower, another story. (Got some local "good ole boys" to do the tranport....it was a real trip believe me.) I think the tower was done in Jersey in the early 80's. In the mid 90's Shearwater did a lot of time as stick boat in Cape Cod area (I put this together by the recipts and the paper work for Tuna from Japanese brokers out of Barnstable)...and normal for Tuna baots in that region is a big tower and long swordfish stand, which it used to have.

Bob H...I am ready as I now have worked a lot of the bugs out and really trust her (Shearwater) now. Been trying to get down to Snug Harber and check out the gear that is on consignement down there. Also..getting the life raft checked soon. I am ready for another tour of your project soon...will call. Into any wireing yet?

bertram31.com

New 31' Owner wants diesel advice

New 31' Owner wants diesel advice

Yanmar's

tower yes or no

Who is online