Repairs on the cheap

[Harry Babb]

There was a Post entitled "Advise on potential purchase (62 Express Cruiser) That post kinda got hijacked but it brought up a point that I think will be of value to our "Sandbox"

Basically the conversation was about manufacturers defects and how to deal with them......in particular we were talking about Volvo....but our conversation could apply to any manufacturer of anything.

Harry- for you and me we have a bad bracket setup, we bring it to the shop and come back a few hours later with one that works. The Average Joe is screwed, a machine shop isn't going to reverse engineer a bracket on the cheap, even on the cheap it would cost more then the standard defective bracket so which way does he turn. The same can be said for pulleys, seals, O-rings etc.

Sort of true but not in its entirety......True, some of us have mechanical resources that far far exceed those of others and that does give us an advantage over the "Average Joe"

But "Joe" does have resources available to him......but it will require him to be creative.....take some responsiblilty.....and become proactive.....

We talked about an alternator bracket. My neighbor has a 260 Mercruiser I/O. He to, broke his alternator tensioning bracket. He, knowing that he had "Me" as a resource asked me to weld it. Well I did weld it. Guess what? Next trip it broke again. I asked him what was going on....come to find out the alternator itself was cracked...not bolted squarely with the belt, vibrating and breaking brackets. We fixed the core problem and walla! ! ! ! no more problems

Although most people do not have neighbors that can help like this and most people do not have a machine shop at their disposal BUT they do have "LOCAL GENERAL REPAIR WELDING SHOP"...."LOCAL TRADE SCHOOLS" that will be more than happy to weld a bracket, drill a hole, make a pulley etc.

The way it works is....kids start Trade School. After the classroom sessions are complete they are allowed to enter the shop. The instructor gives them a print of a project and they make the parts to complete the project......examples are Ball Pien hammer, Meat tenderizer hammer, machinist jacks......etc.

Where my son went to trade school they invited the students to bring in their motorcycle parts, street rod projects, boat projects. Their task then would be to make a print of their intentions, dimension it, tolerance it then make it and their final grade was based on how well they did on meeting the print specs.

Believe me the students and the instructors are very happy to get involved with "Real World" projects. Really gets their blood pumping. These guys, with a little invitation, will follow you back to the boat, help figure out a fix and delight executing the repair/modification......all for a small donation to the school and a boat ride.

I hope I have sparked a good discussion here because I believe that using our resources (ie: local small shops & trade schools) will not only get your "Boat Fixed" but give the young men and women that have elected to attend Trade Schools, a since of involvment in the "Real world" and a taste of practical application. Even if the boat owner does not have the mechanical ability to know what needs to be done there is a lot of guys out there that are capable and willing to share advise...FREE OF CHARGE.....just like here on www.bertram31.com

Harry

[Carl]

Harry I wish that rang true around here...

Zero vocational schools teaching machining to speak of...

With almost a 1/2 million people on a 7 x 14 mile Island and another 2-1/2 million just over the Bridge we avoid little pet projects at all cost...

[Mikey]

Harry,
Having been a solver of problems (mostly of my own making) most of my life I have discovered guys like you most of my life. First, I complicate my life with a design that totally confounds, then I take my rudimentary drawings and hand-made (from anything available) pieces and go to a professional, whether that person is a machinist or chef and say here's what I'm thinking and here's where I am and here's where I want to go and where am I going wrong? If I don't show up at the rush hour I find any pro in any business who is confronted with something that taxes the mind and calls on all the expertise that can be mustered will willingly solve my problem because it brings a bright place to a day full of mundane work. Generally I end up with a better design and better finished product then I could ever have done on my own and usually without huge expense. It's all in the delivery.
Dreamsicle is a study in this theory. There is no way that I could have done what I did without all of you guys on this site throwing in your two-cents worth. The hours spent with Capt. Pat on the phone or in his shop; the days spent with Chiles on my electrical system; the hours in Rawleigh's shop; the hours spent with Uncle Vic, Da Judge and Mean Mike or even Thuddddddd on nearly everything; (damn, I'm going to leave someone out) have made a boat that makes me smile and turns heads beyond what I could have done without the expertise available just for the asking.
Do your homework, make your drawings and models, think it out as best you can, prowl the internet (gooogle is my friend) and then when you go to your expert you are an informed consumer.
Thank God for this sandbox.
Oh, by the way, ain't nothing cheap about repairing boats.

[Mikey]

Pat,
After posting this I tried to edit. Followed directions and still ended with two posts. What am I doing wrong. This is what happened a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks

[Harry Babb]

Harry I wish that rang true around here...

Zero vocational schools teaching machining to speak of...

That's sad Carl....manufacturing in it's most basic form (Farming) to lumberjacking, to textiles to machining...and on and on...is the strength of our country.

There is a trade school in Mobile Alabama that teaches what they call "Manufacturing Technology".....(12 month curriculum including instrumentation and drafting) my son Chris wanted to go to trade school but absolutely REFUSED to attend the local trade school....and I don't blame him...the school was managed by a particular group of people that should not be allowed to manage a 5&Dime store much less an institution with access to government money.

Chris attended Sheldon State in Tuscallossa Alabama....and did very well at it. The curriculum at Sheldon State is 24 months..12 months conventional and 12 months CNC)

Part of my reason for starting this thread was to bring attention to alternate ways of getting Penny Anney projects done but more so trying to get "Us" guys to involve young students and mechanically minded kids involved in manufacturing and machining.

Personally I have practiced what I am preaching and my success rate is less than 5%...may be even 1%....but when I see the one or 2 guys get kicked off with a little excitment I get really excited myself....

Some of the best machinist that I have ever seen are the ones that spent their high school years beating on some old junker of a car just to get to go out and burn a little rubber on Saturday night.....with a little guidance and mentoring these guys are awsome.

To sad there are not more Trade Schools teaching the basic curriculums that support our daily lives.......Farming, Construction, Mechanics, Machining, Electrical, Welding.......It almost seems that its a disgrace to get dirty anymore....been that way for 20 years or so now...

Harry

[Bruce]

Harry,

I run into factory trained techs on products that don't know what to do.

I'd be hard pressed to trust a kid in training to work out a problem that I couldn't understand or solve myself.(looking at it from a logical know nothing consumers point of view)

Not saying it couldn't be done, but it would be really rare.

Hell when Pat and I took our welding course at the local college our instructor was a nice guy. Certified in welding nuke pipes bragged about how many he could do and how clean his welds were.

When it came to our discussions of actual fabrication of stuff and the solving of problems, he hadn't a clue.

Schools for the most part teach by repetition of tasks and not as problem solvers.

Even a squirrel can be taught to water ski.

[randall]

an advantage a factory rep has is knowing what the constant problems are. my sea ray developed a propensity to overheat in the mid range. using clear plastic hose i could see that air was getting in. no one could find it including the local wrench. the merc rep knew about a slight warpage in a casting that was common to this set up. i never would have found it.

[scot]

Bruce I would have to say "that depends on the kid"

I hired a friends son to work in our I&E assembly facility, 7 years later he is the head pricing strategist for a Forture 500 flow control company. Basically a mechanical wonder boy who was stuck putting up siding and going to night school. I would have trusted him to design & build anything I needed.

I think if we could get a few more of them to get their hands dirty, many would find something they are truely gifted at. Some would find success in their lives vs constant job hunting for a corporate position (not that there is anything wrong with corp positions).

[In Memory Walter K]

Corporate positions in the hands of those who haven't earned their way there from the ground up is where the problem often lies. Charles Revson, the legendary CEO of Revlon made every executive he hired spend 3 months working in the stores that sold their products before they could take on their responsibilities. No straight out of school to a desk wonder boys there. This downturn is going to be a very interesting time for the "business schools". They may have to teach a course in working hard and getting your hands dirty.

[AndreF]

I insure alot of very different businesses and all of them have trouble hiring competent "good" people. From CPA's to roofers, good people are hard to find. "Good" meaning they care about themselves enough to do a good job, no matter what the job is.
In my business, it takes three attempts to do anything, the help "upstream" is so bad.
Getting worse, too.

[Harry Babb]

Bruce/Walter
I see a direct connection between your thoughts....Bruce says that he works with "Factory Reps" that don't know what to do.....Walter says that Revlon makes managment work in sales before they are allowed to advance.....seems to me that "Factory Reps" need to work in the shop or actually troubleshooting before they are allowed to be "Factory Rep".

I know exactly what you are talking about Bruce. I work with Engineers that design the products that we make and products that need repair. These engineers appear to have never even walked by a machine shop much less have a working knowledge of how "Stuff Works". I finally figured out that if you run into a problem the way to handle it is to send them a description of the problem and the solution that you want. If you send them the soultion they are more than likely gonna agree with you.

Mikey....sure its not cheap to repair a boat....but there are sensible solutions out there that keep you from standing helpless with a wide open wallet. But there again you must have resources......

My basic point is that the trades that we "Craftsmen" practice everyday are dying off rapidly.....and I think that we can do something about it. Mentoring young men and women with an interest in our specality is a good start....but from my experience its a sloooowwwww process.....if we can teach a squirrel to water ski surely we can teach a young guy to change spark plugs or injectors....and if he can change injectors surely with a little training he can adjust valves and if he can adjust valves....etc etc etc....What the heck.....you guys got me using Fiberglass to repair holes in the bottom of my boat....

I am saying that, like Scot says, if you choose the right guy....work with him....you may actually spark an interest that helps him develop a skill that feeds him for life and get HELP fixin your boat at the same time.

Its up to us guys...the ones with the experience...to share and encourage the youngsters to take up trades.....it is possible....I know for a fact it is possible.

I have to go for now but I do have a good story to tell about a young guy that I met several years ago.......I will tell it later this evening.

Harry

[In Memory Walter K]

Harry, it's not anything else except "the guy"! I was made the President of a NY advertising agency in an era where MBA's were king...except I had no MBA. I was the equivalent of a battlefield commissioned officer, to many people's dismay. When members of my staff in executive positions wanted to hire to fill an opening, they would need my approval on their final choices. They'd send me that chosen person's resume and set up an appointment for an interview with my secretary. The resume was always perfect, painting a picture of a person who could do the job that was needed. Almost ALL candidates were MBA's (and I remind you, I WASNT). Within minutes of seeing the candidates, my instincts would tell me what I thought of the person. Often, when the interview was over, I'd call in the candidate's potential boss and ask, "are you sure you want to hire this guy? Seems like a horses ass to me." Inevitably, I would be told, "no, I think he'll do a great job for us." Compensating for NOT being an MBA, I'd always say "OK, he's your guy, hire him if you feel that way". I was NEVER wrong. Within six months, that executive would come back at me with "he's not making it, gotta let him go". Conversely, I would sometimes interview people as a "favor" to someone. A guy would come in with almost no real credentials but he was curious, enthusiastic, "on fire" and I would think. we HAVE to hire this guy for something...he's going to be successful NO MATTER WHAT he does. I was NEVER wrong when I did. Every one was a great decision.
It's the person that matters! Walter

[Harry Babb]

I've had several experiences similar to the one I am about to tell you about but this one really sticks out in my mind.

One day I got a call from one of my resources, the welding instructor at a local high school. He asked if I would interview a young man that was in his welding class. I agreed and he went on to tell me that I really should over look his appearance.

Well a little while later the kid showed up and holy crap! ! ! I could not believe how rediculous this kid looked. For starters he had pierced ears with objects in the pierced holes that were 1/2" in diameter....(I asked him)....He had pierced eye brows and a hairdo that reminded me of the lion on the Wizard of Oz......the crotch of his pants were down around his knees and he was wearing one of those Chain Drive Harley Wallets.....spikes in his hat and a dog collar around his neck decorated with even more spikes.....it was all I could do just to listen to him without laughing.

Well it goes like this.....His instructor told me that he did not seem to have that much interest in welding but simply could not keep his hand off of the only lathe in the shop.

He and I had a talk about loose clothing, chains and safety in the shop and he agreed to abide by my dress code while on duty at our shop.

He already knew ho to operate the lathe and it did not take long for my guys and myself to teach him the proper proceedures to make parts as well as the proceedure necessary to his tight tolerances.

Sometimes before quiting time I would back my old Chaparell in the back door of the shop.....I think I was building and mounting a Swim Platform. More often than not he would clock out and come hang out with me. I would get him to go drill holes in plates...hold a wrench and what ever came up.

On Saturdays I would ask him to come in and help me work on the trailer....rebuild trim cylinders....install trim tabs...or whatever. He was a lifesaver.

He worked at my shop for several months and did a really good job making parts on the lathe. Obviously had some serious home problems and after graduation his home life blewup and he ran away from home.

I know for sure that I made a difference in his life and he was a real help during his stay at our shop.....I really hated to see him leave......for several years after that he would call or come by when he came back in town around Christmas.

Experiences like this, and I have had quite a few, are the basis of my claim that there are resources all around if you can recognize and develop it.

Our system tends to overlook talent.....I am sure that there are thousands of youngsters out there that are simply never exposed to their own talents....

Harry

[randall]

harry. i knew a guy (hes dead now) who was a poor black kid in houston. he had a lot of digital dexterity and a mind for mechanics. he started working in a transmission shop when he was 12. when he graduated from high school the transmission shop owner told him after college (full scholarship) he would make him a partner. didnt happen. in college he had a professor who saw his real potential and long story short...he wound up being a neurosurgeon. he always credited the tranny shop owner for giving him the opportunity to be everything he became.

[Carl]

Harry- I responded to this post several times and deleted as they just became long winded as I started to rant about how each time I have bent over backwards to teach someone the trade they have left for one reason or another...guess that just life. Even your example sort of proved my point, you and your staff taught this guy only to have him leave, yes you said he was an asset, but he still moved on and your left starting all over again with the next new apprentice.

I have helped a few guys along the way, some went on to better things, some opened their own shops, some sued me...or at least tried to, one guy won the lottery and another hooked up a hose to the tailpipe...I prefer to think about the better memories.

I love what I do, I am still amazed how you think of something in your head, put it to paper, lock a chunk of metal in a machine then proceed to pull away bits of metal leaving only the original vision. I get a real kick out of that. I love figuring out ways to machine parts others say can't be machined.

I have come to the conclusion that the smart people around here will take their talants to the city where they can start at 50'g 's a year with full benefits, retirement plan and dental. Or go to a large company where they are offered similar compensation, both places do not require the work pace that I demand, actually I could never work for the city as I need to move and be productive...I've thought many times about hanging up the cap and taking a city job, but it's just not me.

My outlook for this industry in this area is bleak...

[Charlie J]

everyone is correct, for years now most of the kids dont want to get there hands dirty, just sit in front of a computer and work, when i bring someone new into the bussiness i like to train them from the start, i can tell in about 2 months if they have what it takes, if after 2 months he cant climb a 40' pole in hooks and feel comfortable up there, its time to look else where.

[Mikey]

Harry,
Agreed. Thus my reference to "Informed consumer";
kind of like our founding father's reference to "informed electorate."
Sure, that will happen. But . . .

[Harry Babb]

Harry- I responded to this post several times and deleted
as they just became long winded as I started to rant about how each time
I have bent over backwards to teach someone the trade they have left for
one reason or another...guess that just life

Just like the country song says "Sounds like life to me" and Carl you
are so correct....that has happened to me time and time again.

Let me clear up one thing....I have not mastered what I am preaching here....not even close....it seems like every situation is different and every person responds differently.

The way I see it, is that ya just keep trying and knowing that most of these guys are temporary ya just have to manage the situation keeping them where they can add to your bottom line as much as possible.....which means play on their strengths.

Its kinda like a college football team..(Sort of)...every year you loose your seniors and every year you have to be grooming a new group top players. It requires constant managment. It would be so easy, in my case, to keep people where they perform the best....and never change that......lathe guys always stay on the lathes and mill guys always stay on the mills etc.....but you cannot do that.....you have to put the second string in when ever you can otherwise one day your gonna be caught with your pants down.

I have been thinking about reading the biography of Paul Bear Bryant.....he was a master at bringing out the best in a group of guys....you damn near have to be a freaking physicologist anymore....but my other choice is to work by myself....and then you are limited to only what one man can produce......

I keep hammering away at this subject because its one that I strongly believe in....that is keeping our manufacturing industry alive....

Its easy to get into a rant here......I'll shutup for a while

Harry

[In Memory Walter K]

It was unfortunately a war that taught us the importance of manufacturing. It was our incredible capacity to do so that allowed us to win it. It took sixty years of prosperity to lose that realization which is the root cause of our problems today. Survival depends on your ability to take care of yourself no matter what the conditions. You can't outsource survival. Walter

[Harry Babb]

No truer words were ever spoken Walter

H

[randall]

harry....i like your tag line.

[Carl]

Harry, your right on in your attempt to keeping our manufacturing alive...

However today my main goal is to just keep the roof overhead, kids fed, and kids tuition paid.

Maybe short sighted, but...

[Carl]

Harry- I was just thinking of you as I was outside showing our new "Certified Machinist" how to face and chamfer on a lathe...gee I would have thought that would have been covered in the most basic of classes, along with squaring up a vise...

Maybe it's the "New Machining".

The Good News is I found a school that teaches machining...a bit of a trip from here and it seems they lack the teaching skills and curriculum, but if I can find someone interested enough to enroll in a class....it's a good start.

[Harry Babb]

And I thought that was unique just to the south.....

In da trade schoo we gots in Mobileee cuttin de metals stuff beez teached in at de end of da class.....de fust part is dat, we are teached to....???? I forgots...
Say....you wants me to do what???? You say chamfer??......we neber gots to dat part in schoo.....I wants to run dat one ober dare wiff the red and green nobbs.....


Funny story.....we were building our boat house. The trusses are double and bolted 2x12's. My son and a bunch of young guys were actually doing the assembly.

I purchased "Square" flat washers. I told the guys to make sure that they "Squared up the washers"....just for looks.

I walked around the back of one of the trusses and noticed that all of the bolts were tightened up and the washers were not squared up with the boards....

At this point I said "I thought I told you guys to square up the washers".....the kid looked at me real serious and said.....I did.....the round ones are still in the box over there where you put them.

work stopped for a while until we could all stop laughing..

H

[Charlie J]

harry
thats funny, i have all my guys square or star the washers, as you said just for looks.

[AndreF]

I hired a receptionist years ago. Someone called in a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) for a vehicle they just bought to add to their insurance policy. She took the message and then brought it to me , it read:

1CCharlieFFrank1AAdamEEcho263BBravoRRalph344734

She didn't last long.

[Carl]

And I thought that was unique just to the south.....

No...I wish it was...wish it was.


Good laugh though, thanks!

Carl

[Carl]

I hired a receptionist years ago. Someone called in a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) for a vehicle they just bought to add to their insurance policy. She took the message and then brought it to me , it read:

1CCharlieFFrank1AAdamEEcho263BBravoRRalph344734

She didn't last long.

LOL...now that is real funny

[Harry Babb]

You guys have made me laugh 2 days in a row......something has to give here....

Every watch Jay Leno segnment called "Jay Walking"

H

[randall]

the people on jay walking were so dumb i first thought it had to be fake. unfortunately i was wrong.

[Harry Babb]

Andre
Did your gal go to work at Walmart after leaving your employment

http://www.thisisjuststupid.com/stupid- ... mart-cake/

H

[Tony Meola]

Andre

Many years ago, when I was about 26 years old, the department I worked for at Met Life had a receptionist whom I had worked with for several years and new at the time that I was not married.

She was a nice kid but not the brightest bulb in the world.

I came back from lunch one day and she says to me Tony, your wife called and said it was urgent and to call her right away. When I reminded her I was not married, she had to go to the 30 married guys in the office and tell them to all call home.

She was a nice kid but not the brightest bulb in the world.

[Carl]

Harry--Almost spewed my coffee all over the computer...that was funny.


This is a laugh at me one;

Early in my days of waitering I was finishing up a large table and a gent asked for A Tab...so I went to the Bar and got him A Tab. I hand him the Tab and he asks what's this??? I respond "A Tab" ...obviously I realized then he wanted The Bill not The drink... never saw a table of people laugh so hard.