Newbie wants restored B31 FBC, but is ignorant about them!

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 6th, '09, 19:35

New to the site & happy I found it!

I'm considering purchasing a restored Bertram 31 Flybridge Cruiser. I'm & boater & fisherman from Seatlle, Washignton. I have other boats which I use for fishing,... cruising,... & overnighters - but I'd like to own a classic Bertram 31, too.

I'm not looking for a project - I'm looking for a rebuilt, restored finished boat. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the boats & the process, to discern the difference between an OK restoration,.. a good restoration,.. or an excellent restoration. I'd be only interested in the latter.

So - Having said all that, I would appreciate it if any members could/would mention some of the more important criteria & aspects to look for - while I'm looking at, & for, a boat. Or even simply, if & what are some of the finer examples currently for sale. And of those boats - what are some of the pros & cons about them.

One boat I'm looking at is the SeaNile. From an untrained eye - the boat looks fantastic. However, objectively speaking, what might be some of the short comings of this boat - or any other which I might come across?

Apologies for the vagueness - Any input would be appreciated!

Cheers!
~CLK

Mack · Post by **Mack** » Aug 6th, '09, 20:26

Poggy-
You didn't mention how much you wanted to spend. We all have seen some boats that are "over the top" that in my personal opinion have been overimproved or had features you really don't need.

I was on board Seanile just after she was redone a few years ago and I have to say she is an awsome boat and a great value for the asking price.

The key is find a boat that has been redone mechaically (engine and electric). Cosmetics are cheap to redo compared to the $$ under the hood. As Uncle Vic says "the money is in the iron."

Good luck with your search. This board is a great resource for questions that may come as you look further.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 6th, '09, 20:53

The Sea Nile surely falls into the category of an excellent restoration. It is a Bertram 31 Flybridge Cruiser but there IS a model specifically called The Sportsfisherman. The hulls and basic profile are exactly the same with the following exceptions: The Flybridge Cruiser has a solid bulkhead that encloses the cabin with a lockable door while the Sportsfisherman has a completely open back area that is closed with rolled down canvas and a zippered door. In operation, that is usually rolled up.
The Flybridge Cruiser has a stand-up head on it's starboard side while the Sporsfisherman's head is in the V-berth area and is hidden under the V-berth filler. It is just that...a head.
The Sportsfisherman has a complete lower station fully instrumented while the Flybridge Cruiser has only a bridge operation.
Looking at them head on or in profile, you can't tell the difference. Most owners of each love what they have. Sportsfisherman owners love the open feel as you can sit in the interior and look out into the cockpit in a panoramic sort of way. On the other hand, their wives prefer the luxury of the stand-up head of the Flybridge Cruiser.
Model wise, it's personal choice. Power wise, it's gas or diesel. If you're looking at gas, make sure the fuel tank has been replaced wit an ethanol resistant one. Believe no one who tells you that is not necessary.
Hope this has been of some help.

JK · Post by JK » Aug 6th, '09, 22:12

Chris,

Welcome to the site. You'll love it here. A ton of experience from a passionate crowd! I will call you tomorrow afternoon east coast time.

--JK

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 6th, '09, 22:36

i guest i must be out in left field here. i have tackle every single project entirely by myself except painting the hull.personly i would venture to say i could (with a forklift) change engines at least 6 or 8 times in labor hours before i could install a composite windshield and side windows inside and outside.i removed yanmars and installed cummins faster then it took me to make that incredible difficult kevlar shaft log.please don`t take for granted all that fiberglass work it took to transform a stock 31 bertram into sea nile.or 8 zillion hours it took to make covering boards on jp`s rig .
been there seen that!!!!

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 6th, '09, 22:58

Mack wrote:Poggy-
We all have seen some boats that are "over the top" that in my personal opinion have been overimproved or had features you really don't need.

I agree. I'm not looking for (as the kids like to say) a pimped out boat. I prefer great quality, tastefully done.

The key is find a boat that has been redone mechaically (engine and electric)... As Uncle Vic says "the money is in the iron."

That's just the type of info I'm looking for. In terms of quality, what would constitute a boat being redone right,....mechanically (engine & electric)?

Good luck with your search. This board is a great resource for questions that may come as you look further.

Thanks!

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 6th, '09, 23:17

walterk wrote:The Sea Nile surely falls into the category of an excellent restoration.

In terms of 'pros & cons' - I see alot of 'pros' about the SeaNile. What, if any,are some of the 'cons' about the boat, or it's restoration? Not to put you, or anyone on the spot, but looking for objective feedback. I'd actually like to make that an open question for any member here to provide feedback on.

It is a Bertram 31 Flybridge Cruiser but there IS a model specifically called The Sportsfisherman. The hulls and basic profile are exactly the same with the following exceptions: The Flybridge Cruiser has a solid bulkhead that encloses the cabin with a lockable door while the Sportsfisherman has a completely open back area that is closed with rolled down canvas and a zippered door. In operation, that is usually rolled up........Hope this has been of some help.

Excellent - Thanks! With that in mind - I'm interesting in a restored B31 Flybridge Cruiser. I've edited my original post.

Thanks for the reply & info Walter - I appreciate it!

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 6th, '09, 23:19

JK wrote:Chris,

I will call you tomorrow afternoon east coast time.

--JK

Sounds good. If I miss your call - leave a good time & # to get back to you.

Cheers!
~CLK

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 7th, '09, 10:27

restoring a boat is NOT like restoring a classic car. originality means nothing. use-ability is everything. a good restoration can be a fairly stock redo with newish diesels and new paint to a boat like sea nile, excellently thought out and executed. you wont be sorry.

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 7th, '09, 12:31

randall wrote:...use-ability is everything. a good restoration can be a fairly stock redo with newish diesels and new paint....

Let me quickly preface the following questions by stating that I've never owned a diesel powered boat. All of my boats have OB engines on them. Also, all of my boats have gel coat - not paint.

On the engine side - Generally speaking, what are the 'best' diesels to have? Also, how much of a difference is there between having new(ish) engines vs rebuilt engines? If you, or any other member were looking to purchase a restored b31 - what engines would you want, & if not new, then how old/used would be preferable? Finally, engine wise - what do I want to look out for,...& want to avoid?

Regarding boat paint - Time wise, what constitues 'new' paint, i.e. 1yr,..3yr,...5yrs old? Also, what's quality paint, what's the maintenance up-keep, how long does it last & how much does it cost to repaint?

Thanks Randall!

Cheers!
~CLK

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 7th, '09, 15:38

How far might you cruise this boat? (so we can anticipate needed range)

How rough will the water usually be? (so we know how fast you can realistically go)

How will the boat be used? (so we know if it has to be fish rigged)

Will this be a four season boat? (heat and/or air)

How much are you willing to spend?

The 31's are all gel-coated, but some have been painted over. Paint looks pretty good for about 6 or 7 years in the south, 10 or 12 years on the north. (roughly) This will depend somewhat on how much sun hits it... Paint jobs vary because boats vary (decks teak or painted, cover boards or paint, etc), but expect 5K give or take.

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 7th, '09, 15:52

Regarding boat paint - Time wise, what constitues 'new' paint, i.e. 1yr,..3yr,...5yrs old?

It depends entirely on the use of the individual boat, and the upkeep to the finish.
If it's a boat that is fished hard & often, or just used for the occasional spin around the bay... depends on what kind of brushes & cleaning products were used on the paint film... you get the drift.

Also, what's quality paint

There are several, such as: DuPont Imron, Awlgrip, Interlux Perfection & Sterling are probably the most used product lines. All are multi component systems ( paint, catalyst, reducer ). The most important factor though is the amount of time spent, and the quality of the prep work.

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 7th, '09, 16:39

Hi Mike,

mike ohlstein wrote:How far might you cruise this boat? (so we can anticipate needed range)

Not far. 95% of the time, the boat will stay on a large lake (Lk Washington, appx 22K acres). No long trips to the canyons or fishing grounds. Exclusively short day trips around the lake.

How rough will the water usually be? (so we know how fast you can realistically go)

Not rough. Worse case: 1-3 chop.

How will the boat be used? (so we know if it has to be fish rigged)

As a fresh water day cruiser. No fishing or diving.

Will this be a four season boat? (heat and/or air)

I'd probably run it only during the spring/summer months, however, I'd still want heat/air. Even if I'm not out, I still spend time on my boats at the marina, even in the winter. I have a Boston Whaler 345 Conquest which I use to fish year round.

How much are you willing to spend?

I'm trying to figure that out myself - still working on it.

Paint looks pretty good for about 6 or 7 years in the south, 10 or 12 years on the north. (roughly) This will depend somewhat on how much sun hits it... Paint jobs vary because boats vary (decks teak or painted, cover boards or paint, etc), but expect 5K give or take.

The boat would be wet-slipped year round in Seattle, but not in covered moorage. Sun in the spring & summer, but mostly clouds & rain the rest of the time. The boat would be well maintained (washed/waxed).

Thanks for the questions Mike. Hope the answers provide more color into what I'm looking for.

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 7th, '09, 16:49

Buju wrote: It depends entirely on the use of the individual boat, and the upkeep to the finish.

The boat would have any easy life - Fresh water day cruising & it would be well maintained.

In terms of Awlgrip paint - How does it rank? Is it a high/low/average maintenance paint? What's the upkeep needed to maintain it?

Thanks for the info & feedback.

Cheers!
~CLK

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Aug 7th, '09, 17:04

Paint seems to me to be the LAST finish. the fairing on a bert hull can be substantial. 5k for paint seems (unless I was outrageously robbed) to be a very good deal. Now if you roll and tip things can be more reasonable, but a top grade fully faired and show type job(get what you want, your choice) can be much, much, more. Its all in what you want. Not an investment-- its a great boat and deserves respect. SeaNile looks to be a boat that was treated very,very well.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 7th, '09, 20:38

The discussion is usually between Awlgrip and Imron. Imron's advantage is that it can be more easily touched up. If you like the boat, the selection of the paint should not be a deal breaker as long as it's one of the two.

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 7th, '09, 21:48

what are the best diesels to have? excuse me while i make some popcorn. since im runnin 1984 chrysler gas engines in my 25 im not much of an authority but most repowers seem to be yanmars or cummings .....im sure you will get some opinions.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 7th, '09, 22:42

I think that for your use, a gas boat will be just fine. Diesels are perfect for hours of hard charging followed by hours of trolling followed by more hours of running hard.

That said.......you could build yourself a beautiful picnic boat out of Doc's old 31 lobster boat. It's a hart top, no flybridge, big old Cat diesels, and very short money ($15K, if it hasn't sold already). Have it shipped to one of the three or four top refinishers in the country, and have it delivered to your door.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 7th, '09, 22:45

If you're looking at diesels for a B-31, the best (if there are dealers around) choices are Cummins and Yanmar. Each has it's own loyal fans, but in your case, they're forever engines as your fresh water usage will not be hard on them at all. Those of us who fish hard consider them more reliable for the long runs we make, simpler to maintain and more economical re mpg. My Cummins for example burn about 15 gallons an hour at 20 knots. When that same boat had Chrysler gas engines, they burned 26-30. With diesels I get the same consumption if I am running alone or with 6 passengers, not so with gassers. Diesels give the boat a greater resale value if that means anything to you. On the other hand, for what you describe, gas might be a consideration.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Aug 8th, '09, 10:01

Ditto what Walter said re: Cummins and Yanmars. So far as fit, weight, performance, dependability, etc, these two brands have a lot of fans on this Board. Sea Nile is a fabulous boat that has been restored/re-powered by real pros, directed by a very knowledgeable owner. As stated by others, you couldn't go wrong with Sea Nile if you want a classic 31 with all the updates (Randall is correct, restoring a boat for USABILITY is what matters most). Have fun with the journey, and have fun with the boat (whichever one lands in your possession).

Tommy

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 8th, '09, 11:56

Sounds like gas engines would be sufficient. However, think I'd like to have diesels. Probably overkill - but so is having a B31 for how I plan to use it.

Re: Cummins and Yanmars - For each, what's considered the 'best' hp choice for a B31?... or What's the most common/popular hp choice?

Any thoughts,... comments,... or concerns on/about re-built Cummins or Yanmars engines?

Cheers!
~CLK

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 8th, '09, 13:29

Re: Cummins and Yanmars - For each, what's considered the 'best' hp choice for a B31?... or What's the most common/popular hp choice?

The optimum performance diesel power range for the B31 is 270 - 330hp inline 6 cylinder. The optimal long range cruising and economy will be from the inline 4 cylinder. the difference in cruising speed will be about 4 - 5 kt slower with the 4 bangers and the 6s will give you about 28 - 30 kt cruise.

For your intended small fresh water lake use, the 4 cylinder engines might be a better choice. All of the new engines will be electronic control due to EPA rules. Most of the pre-2006 purely mechanical engines didn't meet tier 1 standards and are, for the most part, no longer available as a new engine.

The 4LH Yanmar in 240 hp configuration would be my recommendation.

However, buying a B31 that's already done, and in turn key condition, far and away is the wisest decision you could make. Forget all the headaches that come with repowering, painting, fixing old problems like rotten wood in the bilges, replacing decks, etc. There is no way, in today's economic environment, that you can refit a B31 less expensively than you can buy one already done.

And of what is currently available on the market, Sea Nile is probably the best value that fits nearly all of your list of requirements. Plus the fact that you can track and verify most of the work that was done over the years through the excellent documentation that John has published on the web.

The real way to go wrong on Sea Nile is by NOT grabbing it while it's available.

Br,

Patrick

BCBertie · Post by **BCBertie** » Aug 8th, '09, 14:29

I own a 26' that's been in the area from Puget Sound north all of it's life, so let me offer a couple of things...

The sun conditions between Puget Sound and the east coast are night and day. My 26 with the original gelcoat still polishes beautifully; every 28 I looked at (including the one I bought) on the east coast suffered from chalkiness in the north to bad spider cracks in the south. The ones that had been well cared for were painted, you just need to make sure they were painted well. If you are really going to stay in Lake Washington, no worries; but if you venture out into the chuck, the more important consideration is how easy is it to repair the inevitable scrapes, dents and gouges from all of our flotsam and jetsam.

Secondly, ethanol has not made it into the marine fuel supply from the Oregon border north, and I don't know of a PNW Bert that has had a tank problem. That doesn't mean that it won't some day, but if you buy a gas boat (one that has spent it's life in the PNW) now you are safe for the time being and can always repower to diesel before the time comes.

I agree with the sentiment that you can not possibly restore a boat for anywhere near what you can buy an already restored one for. But you need to make sure that the customizing is in line with your needs. I looked at a beautiful 28 in Texas that had the most stunning woodwork I'd ever seen on a boat and an incredible fairing job that made the paint look like glass. But the owner had glassed over the windshield and blacked out the windows, turning the interior into a cave. That made a lower station impossible, and made the only way you could see all that beautiful wood was by artificial lighting. There isn't much seating on a Bert, and if the inside makes you claustrophobic, well... Now, if I was going to use that boat in the Gulf, I would have appreciated a place to get out of the sun.

Anyways, good luck finding the boat of your dreams. Lake Washington ain't much, but a 31 would be ideal for the west side of Vancouver Island...

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 9th, '09, 23:12

CaptPatrick wrote:

However, buying a B31 that's already done, and in turn key condition, far and away is the wisest decision you could make. Forget all the headaches that come with repowering, painting, fixing old problems like rotten wood in the bilges, replacing decks, etc. There is no way, in today's economic environment, that you can refit a B31 less expensively than you can buy one already done.

Br,

Patrick

Thanks CaptPatrick for info on the engines & the advice above - I'm sure you know of what you speak

Cheers!
~CLK
ps - Obviously I'm new here - but thanks for putting this site together!

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 9th, '09, 23:16

BCBertie wrote:I own a 26' that's been in the area from Puget Sound north all of it's life, so let me offer a couple of things...

Thanks for the info - Good stuff to know!

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 9th, '09, 23:36

FWIW - If anyone reading this thread has a B31 for sale, or may want to sell - please feel free to pm me if it's something (based on what I've so far described) you think I might be interested in.

I'll keep any information I receive confidential.

TIA.

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 12:28

I'd like to get an idea of what the general maintenace cost would be, on a restoted B31 FBC.

I understand that's a general question - the answer of which depends on different variables. But for discussion sake, let's assume fairly new paint, electrical & rebuilt engines. The boat would be slipped in fresh water, but not in covered moorage. Assume use to be light & less than 40 hrs a year. I would wash the boat regularly, but would pay for annual detail & wax. I'd pay to have the engines service the bottom painted (when needed).

I understand cost can/would flucuate year-to-year, so lets assume the average annual cost, over a 7 year period. Finally, do not inlcude the cost of moorage.

Any feedback, experince & opinions would be appreciated.

Cheers!
~CLK

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Aug 15th, '09, 13:23

If you dont use but 40 hours a year, that could cause some problems. Boats do better some times with more use, ie: power running through the wires, pumps running, electronics warmed up, engines running, turning the fuel over in the tank. Batteries like to get charged up. My guess for seven years with the normal stuff breaking about 1500$ a year 10500$ for the seven years.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 15th, '09, 13:38

Totally impossible question to answer.....

Rule of thumb on a new boat, (ie: first time purchased by anyone), is 10% of the purchase price will approximate the annual maintenance, insurance, dockage, fuel, etc. But that all goes out the window on used boats, especially as the vintage of the hull gains in years.

I think, based on your parameters, you won't get by on anything under $8,000 and that's excluding mooring.

I'll hazard another guess that the average B31 in service gets 100+ hours of use per year. Considering that the average "in water boat" probably has a seasonal use of between 6 and 9 months per year, 40 hours per year use comes out at between 4 & 6 hours per month on the months it gets used.

If $8,000 per year is a feasible number, that's $2,000 per hour of use. And that doesn't even start the amoratization of your initial investment in the boat itself...

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 13:58

Brewster Minton wrote:If you dont use but 40 hours a year, that could cause some problems. Boats do better some times with more use, ie: power running through the wires, pumps running, electronics warmed up, engines running, turning the fuel over in the tank. Batteries like to get charged up.

I agree.

The situation is - I currently already have 3 boats.

If i purchased a Bertram - I'd sell one of my smaller boats. Howver, that'd still leave me w/ three.

Unfortunately, you can only captain one at a time. The effects of that is low hourly use.

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 14:06

CaptPatrick wrote: I think, based on your parameters, you won't get by on anything under $8,000 and that's excluding mooring.

If $8,000 per year is a feasible number, that's $2,000 per hour of use. And that doesn't even start the amoratization of your initial investment in the boat itself...

Thanks for the reply & info.

Generally, what do you see that $8K accounting for (i.e. engine service, paint, etc?) Could you provide some hypothetical, though fairly reasonable scenarios, in which the annual maintenace would be $8K?

Also - Forgot to mention, the boat would have diesel power.

TIA

Cheers!
~CLK

JK · Post by JK » Aug 15th, '09, 14:33

Chris,

Here is the breakdown of my cost over the past years since I have repowered with diesels, etc.

Oil change for genset and Cummins $165 done once a year or every 100hrs
Zincs replaced every season $150
Awlgrip wax (one bottle lasted me 4 years) $50
Replace raw water impellers on engines $150 (and I have 4 spares currently)
Replace raw water impeller on genset $20
Replace starboard fuel pump $900

Other than the boat slip I have spent $128 for the oil change and $100 for zincs so far this season. Bottom did not have to be repainted due to it being slipped in freshwater.

Other than buying soap and new sponges this boat is pretty simple and relatively cheap and easy to maintain. Don't hire someone to detail the boat, a painted boat is so simple to wash and wax it takes me about 4hrs to do the entire boat. For reference I wax from the rubrail down to the waterline in 40 minutes by my self. The awlgrip wax is nothing like a traditional paste wax, this stuff wipes on and wipes off.

John

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 14:43

Hey John - Thanks for reply & cost breakdon.

Would love to hear from any other owners, regarding generally; What it costs them annually to maintaine their B31s, sans moorage.

I don't expect anything as detailed as what John offered, but appx what you've spent over the past 5-7 years, averaged out annually. Also, what the majority of that expense has gone to.

Anybody's experience &/or feedback is much appreciated.

Cheers!
~CLK

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 15th, '09, 15:12

my annual cost depends directly on what i want to charge myself for labor..........and i dont work cheap.

pacific marlin · Post by **pacific marlin** » Aug 15th, '09, 15:14

CLK,
Just get it on and buy Sea Nile.

JK · Post by JK » Aug 15th, '09, 15:16

Forgot to add the cost of Racors for the engines and genset. That's a good $75 or so changed every season or 100/150 hrs of use.

--JK

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 15th, '09, 15:59

Let's keep apples and oranges from being compared... Or omissions from not being counted.

The annual cost of owning a boat in the water should include: All Expected Expenses other than the original cost of the boat, engines, generator, and other big ticket items, (these should be amortized over what ever period one decides).

All Expected Expenses should include: Annual maintenance, (not only for the engines and gen set), insurance, fuel, haul and launch, bottom paint, etc.

Some mechanical maintenance can be done by the owner, depending on his skill level, above that, mechanics don't come cheap. Same goes for yard work. How willing is the owner to suit up and grind bottom paint.

Also, we're talking more about what should be budgeted for annual expenses, not how little or how much this year or that actually cost in retrospect.

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 16:32

CaptPatrick wrote:Let's keep apples and oranges from being compared... Or omissions from not being counted.

The annual cost of owning a boat in the water should include: All Expected Expenses other than the original cost of the boat, engines, generator, and other big ticket items, (these should be amortized over what ever period one decides).

All Expected Expenses should include: Annual maintenance, (not only for the engines and gen set), insurance, fuel, haul and launch, bottom paint, etc.

Some mechanical maintenance can be done by the owner, depending on his skill level, above that, mechanics don't come cheap. Same goes for yard work. How willing is the owner to suit up and grind bottom paint.

Also, we're talking more about what should be budgeted for annual expenses, not how little or how much this year or that actually cost in retrospect.

Oh, I agree.

I own boats - & I understand the costs are numerous,...various & continuous.

However, I've never purchased a used boat,... a vintage boat,... or a boat with diesel power.

I'd like to get a realistic idea of what (generally) to expect in terms of maintenance costs, for a restored B31, plus some idea of how those expenses usually break down. I'm not looking for optimistic, or best case scenarios - but what can reasonably be expected,... or even worse case.

Any direct experience, reasoned feedback or opinions - is much appreciated.

Cheers!
~CLK

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 15th, '09, 20:19

guess capt. patrick and myself are looking at this situation in the same light. my boat and and sea nile are essentially the same top side.(windows,rear window, electrinic, radar arch , cockpit --fish boxes,generator,paint.we are looking at way in excess of 100,000 dollars .forget this discucssion for what jk wants for the boat the DIESELS are free!!!!!i would not take 200,000 for phoenix.i am in at least 75 boats a year.what part do you not understand about a 31 center console for 250,000 and no conparason plus the fact that jk has a very smart interior that would put the deal up and over the smartest mentality!!!

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 15th, '09, 20:27

Amen, Bob... I'm 10-7

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 21:07

bob lico wrote: what part do you not understand about a 31 center console for 250,000 and no conparason plus the fact that jk has a very smart interior that would put the deal up and over the smartest mentality!!!

Currently - I'm just trying to get an idea of what to expect in terms of maintenance costs.

Generally - I'm also considering other options; possibly a smaller (25-26) restored Bertram Cruiser w/ hard top. This option is better suited for how I intend to use the boat (Day Boat).

I've always liked & admired the sportfish style boats, however, they're not the most practical for fishing up here (PNW). I'd get one because they're a classic & like them. However, as noted above, a smaller restored Bertram would be more practical for my intended use.

I'm not familiar with these boats - So I'm just considering the possibilities & weighing my options.

Apologies if I've offended anyone.

Cheers!
~CLK

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 15th, '09, 22:33

Apologies if I've offended anyone

Ha! Comeon, we've got a little thicker skin than that. You're gonna need to kick it up a little to even approach offensive.

a smaller restored Bertram would be more practical for my intended use.

In all honesty, there is nothing practical about your proposed use. Not in the true sense of the word. Doing do-nuts around a lake all day will never approach practicality. Right?

Currently - I'm just trying to get an idea of what to expect in terms of maintenance costs.

If you already own and regularly use three boats, then you have a good idea of what to expect. If the boat is recently redone, you've got a relatively clean slate.

My turn to pry:
What is it exactly that draws you to a B31? The lines of the boat? The way she rides? The history & pedigree? The opp. to own a piece of history? All of the above?
A Bertram25 hardtop is a completely different boat than a Bertram31FBC...
Sure, they share attributes in the ride and handling... But what exactly are you looking for? What particular aspects of ea. do you like, and dislike?
If you just want any classic Bertram to ride the lake, maybe consider a nicely redone B20 BahiaMar. Closer to approaching practicality than either the B25 of B31.
If you just want a classic deep v, them maybe go the donzi/formula/t.bird route.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 15th, '09, 22:36

No offenses on this site. just trying to be helpful. A lot has to do with per foot costs in your area. I KNOW northeast prices are much more. Per foot to put the boat in (x$ X 31), same to remove at end of season. Storage, outdoor or indoor is again usually based on footage. Oil change and filter changes annually are parts and labor. You can do it, but if you have it done, factor in your local hourly rate (our mechanics range from $90-$120 per). Detailing or waxing hull usually is per foot again, as is bottom painting. You'll get charged for 1 1/2 gallons based on the kind of paint you choose. Covering your boat during storage (shrink wrap) is around $5.00 per linear foot. Insurance rates vary by location. Factor in a couple of thousand dollars. Given 40 hours of use, you'll have fairly low fuel bills but figure 15 gallons per hour x the cost of a gallon of fuel in your area. If NOTHING goes wrong, you still have the cost of filters annually, oil changes annually, impellers annually, zincs annually, cleaning at every use, fuel at every use. Since you have other boats, you basically know what your annual costs should be, just assume this boat is a bit larger, and if you pick up a good restored one, I'd suspect it may be more dependable, safer and more comfortable than the others. Walter

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Aug 15th, '09, 23:08

All I know is BOAT literally stands for "Break out another thousand!!"
I dont know about buying a pretty restored 31 with diesels but, i now i have spent a butt load on a unrestored big block Chrysler(ford) powered boat and i haven't even owned it a year! (i was trying to track my costs on quickin, and well i stopped i got too depressed) Also dont forget, your cost of transport, which i dont remember where sea nile is, but a 31 goes over the road pretty easy, except for the tower. oh and if you haven't sanded black(or blue, smerf) bottom paint, you are in for a treat!! Good luck, i love my 31 and its a great boat, i have yet to actually fish, but the wife and 2 kids love to go for rides and as long as you dont take a pilot boat wake at 25 knots its really not that wet a ride HAHA

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 23:36

Buju wrote:In all honesty, there is nothing practical about your proposed use. Not in the true sense of the word. Doing do-nuts around a lake all day will never approach practicality. Right?

I didn't say what I was doing was practical - only that, even if it was only doing dough-nuts around a lake all day, a smaller boat with better seating, sans a fishing platform, would be a more practical choice, than say a 31' SF w/ outriggers. No? Besides, owning boats in general is unpractical for most people. But probably not for you... When all the bills are paid on your boat Buju - what do you pay per pound for your fish?

My turn to pry:
What is it exactly that draws you to a B31? The lines of the boat? The way she rides? The history & pedigree? The opp. to own a piece of history? All of the above?

All the above, w/ the exception of the ride. I've never been on one.

A Bertram25 hardtop is a completely different boat than a Bertram31FBC... Sure, they share attributes in the ride and handling... But what exactly are you looking for? What particular aspects of ea. do you like, and dislike?

I know they're different.

As to the 31FBC - I've always liked the old sportfish boats. We have some up here - Berts, Hatts & a few Vikings. There's a 52' Hatt at my marina which I love,... & there's a 50' Bert about a 1/2 mile away. Whenever I see the older style SF boats - I always pause to check them out. Anyways - I liked the B31 - it's a classic SF & not a monster. However again - I wouldn't use the boat for fishing. I aready have a large fishing boat.

As to the 25 Hard Top Cruiser - There's a beautiful one in my area. 1968 & completely redone. It's been re-powered w/ twin Yamaha F150s, rigged on an Armstrong bracket. The boat's gorgeous & looks classic. Dual seats, large cockpit & small cuddy. Great boat for cruising around with guests or going out to eat in. Although not as sexy as a SF, still more practical then a SF, for how I'd use it.

If you just want any classic Bertram to ride the lake, maybe consider a nicely redone B20 BahiaMar. Closer to approaching practicality than either the B25 of B31.

I have a Grady-White 180 Sportsman w/ a Yamaha F150 that I use as a lake runabout. A B20 would be too close in size to this. I also have Boston Whaler 150 Montauk which I used to use as a tender/small runabout. I'll probably sell this boat. For fishing & overnighting - I have a Boston Whaler 345 Conquest. W/ the pulpit & engines down, this boat's about 38'.

Hope the additional info helps.

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 23:47

walterk wrote: Since you have other boats, you basically know what your annual costs should be, just assume this boat is a bit larger, .... Walter

Thanks Walter.

Just trying to do some research & due dilligence. As I've previously stated - I've never owned or maintained a vintage boat,... or a diesel powered boat.

I'm weighing my options,... & a person needs info to do that.

Thanks again to everyone for their input.

Cheers!
~CLK

CLK · Post by **CLK** » Aug 15th, '09, 23:52

coolair wrote:...oh and if you haven't sanded black(or blue, smerf) bottom paint, you are in for a treat!!

Not sure what's meant by that - care to expound?

Glad to hear your family enjoys the boat - hopefully, you'll get to fish it soon!

Cheers!
~CLK

luis · Post by **luis** » Aug 16th, '09, 02:19

I think you must do some helm on a B31 with diesels, normal and litle wind wave weather and, that belong to a guy that don't want to sell.
After that, if you feel "it" then no matter what costs the maintenance you'll buy. If you don't feel "it".... don't buy.
I have a B31 and 2 other small boats. I let my friends ride the 2 small boats. Now, the B31 only goes out with me onboard. Point and finish.
Having and maintaining a B31 as nothing to do with "normal" boats. My opinion and only my opinion.
Try to ride a B31 to know what I mean.
Greetings

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Aug 16th, '09, 06:54

When all the bills are paid on your boat Buju - what do you pay per pound for your fish?

Thats a figure I've never had any desire to learn. It'd probably depress me, sometimes I like to remain blissfully unaware.
If I ever did want to know, there are so many variables involved,(ran 10mi. offshore and filled the box with 20 dolphin, or went to the reef and speared a bunch of hogfish & grouper, or caught some snook in the tidal creek ) that the answer would just be a average.
Go on a trip, or fishing trip on a B31 like Luis suggests. Your big Whaler will probably no longer be your "go to" fishing and overnighting vessel.
I say get the B31, and use her in the salt. Put the conquest on the auction block, use the Grady in the lake like you have been.

Coolairs comment on sanding bottompaint is based solely on how much it sucks.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 16th, '09, 06:58

I haven't looked at B31s for sale for a long time, but have seen and been on JK's SeaNile, and it is that nice. If I were looking for a B31 FBC with diesels, that's what I'd buy.

There is nothing to me that's quite like a B31. Great hull, classic lines, and the best "do-it-youself" boat I've ever seen. Pretty much everything is easily accessible on a B31, and can be taken apart in literally minutes.

From what you described with use, desire, and where your are, I'd look for a B31 SF--like Walter's Bluebeard or Mack's Mako. Its kinda' like a B31 hardtop with a flybridge on it. You can run it from downstairs, and your crew has a nice big airy place to get out of the weather--but you still get the flybridge when you want it.

I know I'm in the minority here, but at 40 hours a year intended use, and alot of sitting, I don't understand the desire for diesels. They're more expensive to purchase, maintain (given a 40 hour use), get worked on, and without trolling valves you won't be able to slow troll (you do that up there for salmon, right?). The longevity and range that are the main benefits from a diesel boat don't matter to you.

I'm not quite sure where you are, but I ran a boat down from Nanaimo to Seattle last year it was just about the most beautiful run I've ever done. If you're near there, you're pretty fortunate, and a B31 would be great.

John

bertram31.com

Newbie wants restored B31 FBC, but is ignorant about them!

Newbie wants restored B31 FBC, but is ignorant about them!

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