Outboards on 31 Express??

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Jul 20th, '09, 13:46

An express would probably sink from embarrassment.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jul 20th, '09, 14:42

It must be an optical illusion, but the motors on that 31 FBC don't look centered???

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » Jul 20th, '09, 15:08

I can't believe the prices on 4 strokes. 350 hp yamaha $25,000 plus a motor. That is insane for OB. Plus the cost of everything else that's alot of money. The biggest thing is can you resell the boat???? I thing it makes the boat look like ****.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 20th, '09, 21:34

Nice, a new set every 5 years or so. The world has gone mad.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 07:36

they are more then 25,000 capt. frank when the smoke settles you are out 27,000 each .i had surgery monday morning so i cannot supply pictures foe a while. oakdale yacth is overwhelm this week. jim skully is yamaha and mercury authorize they have 12 blow ups in the shop 2 mercury and the rest 350 &250yamaha/300 susuki.most are less then a season.i will photo when i can walk.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jul 21st, '09, 07:55

A dealer I know has been fixing blown up new outboards all summer. The 250s and 300s are blowing up pretty fast. Yamaha does not want to talk about it nor do many of the others. Many have gone in less than 100 hours. He says the good ones only last maybe 1000 hours at best. At 27000.$ a pop and two or three of these puppies strapped on the back of your boat it could get real ugly fast.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 21st, '09, 10:14

Sounds like less than 5 years. What you are seeing is an attempt by the manufacturers to meet what they think is a consumer demand. What this usually creates is a rush to meet that demand with products that are not properly tested...and most importantly, not given the test of time. This is one we can't blame the tree huggers for. Many of the people I have met with them have what I call a "speed" mentality, and can usually rationalize their decision by telling you how far they can go in an hour, leaving out their discomfort and wettness factor, to say nothing about rarity of sea conditions that might allow them to do it. Their ownerships are usually short-lived and the dump they will take financially on selling will be so substantial, they might not come back to boating. Makes a big argument for diesels doesn't it? Ten year old Cummins or Yanmar with 2000 hours on it is just broken in if well maintained. Try that with a FIVE year old 300 hp outboard...any brand. Your first thought would be replacement. Walter

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » Jul 21st, '09, 10:24

walterk wrote:Sounds like less than 5 years. What you are seeing is an attempt by the manufacturers to meet what they think is a consumer demand. What this usually creates is a rush to meet that demand with products that are not properly tested...and most importantly, not given the test of time. This is one we can't blame the tree huggers for. Many of the people I have met with them have what I call a "speed" mentality, and can usually rationalize their decision by telling you how far they can go in an hour, leaving out their discomfort and wettness factor, to say nothing about rarity of sea conditions that might allow them to do it. Their ownerships are usually short-lived and the dump they will take financially on selling will be so substantial, they might not come back to boating. Makes a big argument for diesels doesn't it? Ten year old Cummins or Yanmar with 2000 hours on it is just broken in if well maintained. Try that with a FIVE year old 300 hp outboard...any brand. Your first thought would be replacement. Walter

I was thinking the exact same thing - More low end torque where you need it - better mileage - and last 5X longer.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 10:52

look guys personlly i have no opinion you just don`t understand i have to take pictures there is no use explaining how all those four strokes are put together you have to break down the powerhead on a table what looks like a mile of chain driving a slew of gears one small infraction and the hold power head explodes with hundreds of pieces all over-----junk.ok in warranty but the minute it goes out and one lifter hangs the whole motor is gone. i have to show you.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Jul 21st, '09, 11:57

Bob- Sounds like brilliant engineering! But it does explain why you need 2 or 3 of them in the back of your boat. To get back home. Walter

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jul 21st, '09, 13:46

:-D Wow, no love what so ever here for outboards.

I will go back to playing devils advocate here because it is not all negative, whether you see it or not there are some benefits to outboards even on a Bertram. I know that I will never convince some of the faithful of the benefits but I do want 3rd party readers to realize there is another side to the coin.

They dont just magicly blow up at 5 years old. They do last longer than that. I currently have a 11 year DFI Optimax with over 1000 hours. The average boater is below 35 hours a year now. Some people (most) will never see 1000-2000 hours on their engine hour meter in a lifetime.

The prices are over inflated here. You can buy a Suzuki 250hp Four Stroke 30 inch shaft for $12k. You dont need the monster 350hp Yamaha. It is nice though. You can buy a less complex 2 stroke for close to the same price as the Suzuki also. A 28ft Bertram will do 50mph plus with twin 250hps and a 31ft Bertram does very well (just ask targeted species).

The increase in speed, shallower draft, ability to get into skinny water, increased floor space, increase fuel capacity, easy of maintaince and ability to get service any where is nice.

If Outboards were as bad as you make them out then no would use them.

Grady White
Boston Whaler
Pursuit
Regulator

and two dozen more top companies have 33ft+ boats that are some of their best sellers with OBs. Why? Because it fits a certain niche market. Not everyone fishes offshore every day, some people just like to hit the key and go.

Outboards do have a place in boat above 30ft today.

Just my 2 cents.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 13:49

ok walterk i will explain a little further; years ago you had a simple 2 stroke with a flywheel connected to a crankshft and 6 pistons as long as you run fresh water thru the engine after every use you can keep those tiny little water passages in the cylinder head clean and a new water pump impellar and your good . now the big four stokes come along 250hp to 350hp they are a marvel of engineering like a giant serpitine belt or chain driving 4 overhead camshafts,a fuel injection pump,oil pump wow just one lifter failure and the overhead camshaft jams .valves go thru pistons alluminum gears fly apart wait to you see how intricate they are and so many thing can go wrong. i have drove over 100 boats in recent years and i can give you unbelivable examples ----ok you have a 350,000 boat with mutible 350 or 300 hp 4 strokes the boat does 60 mph wide open but can`t even get on plane with one 350hp . honest i know it is hard to belive.last week twin 250 yamaha on grady white .took customer and son 50 miles of shore boat does a honest 50mph in two footer the best was 31mph how about 32 fountain triple 250 merc, about 63mph coming home from canyon lucky if we can make 24mph and get beat up and wet at that.in 4 footers. everybody is going to do there calulation and say put four stroke`s on a 31 bertram actually if you wash every trip your better off with 2 strokes if you can keep it light. in closing i just want to say the manufacturer desigh the boat for inboards and those center consoles are made for outboards especially consideration for scuppers best keep it that way.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 13:57

capt bone you are here by invided by me to see for your self. pm me and i will meet you at oakdale yacth to look inside one and if you so choose we have a warehouse ful of 300 susuki . tom bought a tractor trailer full of 300 seen by john and harv.
one more for brewster the bitch of it all is a trible engine sits on the hard with one engine down waiting for manufacturer approval to remove power head----------pissed off customer

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jul 21st, '09, 14:08

Thanks for the invite. I understand that they are complex pieces of machinery (just like your modern electronic diesel or your car).

But you skipped over the pro's of the outboards. You have to acknowledge there are benefits.

They are not always broken. Seatow (right in your own yard) likes them (four strokes) and they run the heck of them.

They are not all bad. You also still have 2 strokes (HPDI, Optimax and Etec) to choose from up to 300hp.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 16:07

wait a minute; walter,john,brewster, or myself did not mention electronic diesels !we said mechanical diesels.
i truly apologize it is just a problem i have with explaining technical matter without a picture.lets try again first of all my buddy john owner of seatow signed for my capt lic. towing endorment i know him well and thats not the story we just put a 300 susuki on his # 1 boat after the yamaha blew up........ this is the drive gear to the water pump on a mechanical cummins similar to cat,volvo etc. the steel gear move at about 1/2 crank speed let say 1000rpm .the cam gear is even bigger.unless you are down 15quarts of oil it will last a lifetime.

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Jul 21st, '09, 16:11

Every year when I go to the boat show I ask the guys at the Grady White display if their boats are serious fishermen.

"Of course!" they always answer.

How the heck are you supposed to fish a 36 foot boat with 6 feet of 3 monster OB's hanging off the back? It would be one thing if it was an inexpensive boat, but for close to half a million I'd like to be able to go after some big fish.

How does one bring a giant BF, marlin, shark, etc... into a Grady?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 16:18

now i want you to go in your garage and pick up the children`s bycycle with the little training wheel . remove the chain and walk in front of a mirror tell yourself that 3/16 chain driving 4 camshafts ,oil injection pump and oil pump moving at 3000 rpm will last a lifetime! and go to the 2hp lawnmower and remove pull cord cover you see that alluminum flywheel thats the drive sprocket!!! now let talk about the oringinal statment you would need at least 2 years of yamaha school and 5000.00 in tools and computor just to tune it up. best off believe half of what you see and none of what you hear on present day four stroke outboards .

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 16:22

i drove the 3o' grady white with twin 250hp ,the 33' with twin 350hp and the 36' with trible 350 hp (one blew up with 10 hours on it)great boat beautiful cabin very well layed out but the cockpit has all these wells and draws on the trasom brewster would go berserk.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jul 21st, '09, 16:30

captbone wrote:Thanks for the invite. I understand that they are complex pieces of machinery (just like your modern electronic diesel or your car).

But you skipped over the pro's of the outboards. You have to acknowledge there are benefits.

They are not always broken. Seatow (right in your own yard) likes them (four strokes) and they run the heck of them.

They are not all bad. You also still have 2 strokes (HPDI, Optimax and Etec) to choose from up to 300hp.

I stick with these points. You must admit that outboards have there benefits.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jul 21st, '09, 17:37

bob lico wrote: brewster would go berserk.

The facts are I would go crazy. Or crazier than I am anyway.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 17:38

yes i left out a very important factor .there are some great bass fishing around the islands in fire island inlet BUT you have to cross 2' of water for 50' or so ".sorry charle" no inboards .out east there are great fluke area only accessible by a outboard .i will go one step further you really have to watch the charts with a 31 bertram in the bay but and outboard could go most anywere if you lift the engines . going aground inboards foget about it.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 17:44

incidently the yamaha `s are belt driven and the susuki is chain driven .jimmy pointed out most offten the culprit is the cast alluminum drive sprockets not the belt.however making a attemped at changing the timing belts would be a disaster foy diy .more then meets the eye !!!!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 21st, '09, 18:37

You have to look at percentages of units sold vs units failed to get a proper idea product reliability.

Its not the technology thats been the problem. The technology has been around for decades.

Its the application of the technology thats rears its ugly head. The marine environment is tough. Not only in corrosion and rust but more important engine loading. Boaters love to shove the throttles forward fast.

They like that rush of engine power not understanding what a hell of a load that engine is taking.

When on a sea trial every time I see an owner bury the throttles from idle I ask them if at every green light they mash the pedal down on the car?

Almost always I get the answer no cause that would be too hard on the car. It usualy takes a minute for the light bulb to come on after that.

In a rush to meet continued EPA regulations and market share, engine makers continue to rush product without proper testing and like many makers cut costs to make it competetive.

Its the old saying, "its easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission".

BTW I had an old timer with a Grady White and Yamaha 2 stroke engines bought new. I serviced it every year for 9 years till he got to old to use it.

He fished every day the weather was good and never broke down and when he sold it the engines had 3800 hours with nothing more than water pumps, plugs and lube. They still looked like new.

OB's have their place.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 21st, '09, 19:12

bruce i hope you did not get the opinion i was bad mouthing grady white . the boat like i said was built very well and great glasswork but the cockpit was a little more family style then brewster would be happy with.funny thing is we never have problem with the 200 hp version or 225 four stroke of years gone by.i am just a cusual observer!!

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Jul 21st, '09, 19:55

its like a angry mob in here!

Bob- I dont think Bruce gives 2 craps about Gradys, I think he was just making a point about his customer and those outboards the guy had.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Jul 21st, '09, 21:28

Bruce wrote:
OB's have their place.

That is my point. They are certainly not for everyone but for a few they do make sense in certain applications. It all depends on how someone plans to use their Bertram.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jul 22nd, '09, 06:13

Captbone, I have some out board boats also, and love them. What is bad about the new larger 250s 300 and 350s is they do blow up more than they should. As always older engines were better in many ways than some of the new 4 strokes. And it is true that many people will never see 1000 hours because they dont use their boats very much. My point was for big money a big outboard 350hp should last more than 1000 hours. Some people have crazy $ and dont care if it goes because its chump change to them. Back to outboards on a 31 Bertram, it can be done and could work but I think,well if thats what someone wants good.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Jul 22nd, '09, 07:08

No problem with Grady here.
Just an example of how OB's can last if taken care of and treated well.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 22nd, '09, 08:28

I spoke with my "Uncle-in-Law" (?) not too long ago as he was hanging out at the Bait Store waiting for the mechanic...He does not run his outboard overly hard and has had it serviced yearly with little problems... other then a few times in the past few years where he had to limp back back as the ethanol reacted badly with his injectors. Funny last time the New Upgraded Style Injector was supposed to be compatible so he switched them all just to be safe. I wonder if these New New Style will work better or longer.

What is the resale on an outbourd once the warrantee is over???

JP Dalik · Post by **JP Dalik** » Jul 22nd, '09, 08:39

Sim,

I guess the value of these things after warranty would be right in line with a Ford 6.0 diesel. In the crapper.

I like outboards they have their place.

18ft Wellcraft
20ft Sea Craft
23ft Sea Vee

After about 25 ft, not liking them so much, But think of the giant fish box you could put in place of the inboards on a B31. Come on Brew even you'd have to like aspect--- a little...

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Jul 22nd, '09, 08:52

sim the problem with the ethanol is yamaha will not commit they just pretend there is no problem . you have to figure these guys sell all over the world and it is just a few tree huger asshole politicians that are resposible for this condition so yamaha/susuki/ e-tech and the rest just honor the warranty until it runs out then forget it. lets be relistic you have a 250 hp yamaha out of waranty and it explodes . it needs a power head plus labor basiclly you have a throw away with a spare lower unit.we have a large sales office on montauk hwy oakdale all sales people concur impossible to sell big 4 - strokes out of warranty on center consoles hardly ever used.extended warranty by yamaha is 2500 per engine (another two years)7500 plus tax----somthing to consider

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 22nd, '09, 09:11

Yamaha...yes I do believe that is what he has hanging over his transom. If not maybe Suzuki. When he was buying he wanted that motor because of its longevity due to a coating or something... not sure as he really lost my interest at "Outboard".

So I guess he can expect the same life from these new injectors.

He is not going to be a happy camper...

JohnCranston · Post by **JohnCranston** » Jul 25th, '09, 00:35

Mark,
Just for fun, how about a single inboard coupled with a jack shaft going back to a Volvo dua prop outdrive. I know a few manufactures that have done this, including Albermarle and Sea Vee. I went offshore on a Sea Vee...I think it was a 28 footer with a single Volvo diesel that was surely incredible. The ride was unbelievable with no spray. I was told we got about 4 miles per gallon. It seems like the dua prop with work with any other diesel. Imagine, the engine completely under the deck area...maybe a big hatch to lift up for axcess...plenty of room for saddle tanks and big fish boxes. One big flat deck space to walk on. Beef up the transom a little to accomodate the outdrive...maybe put a swim platform over the dua prop to fish around...hell, I don't know...just something else to think about...we've pretty much covered everything on this post. Consider the tilt and trim factor on the outdrive and the fact of no rudders to deal with...no packing glands either...I could keep going, but, I'm parched...time for another beer.Would be easy to put on and off of a trailer...no bottom job...ok, I'm done.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Jul 25th, '09, 09:26

JohnCranston wrote:Mark,
Just for fun, how about a single inboard coupled with a jack shaft going back to a Volvo dua prop outdrive. I know a few manufactures that have done this, including Albermarle and Sea Vee. I went offshore on a Sea Vee...I think it was a 28 footer with a single Volvo diesel that was surely incredible. The ride was unbelievable with no spray. I was told we got about 4 miles per gallon. It seems like the dua prop with work with any other diesel. Imagine, the engine completely under the deck area...maybe a big hatch to lift up for axcess...plenty of room for saddle tanks and big fish boxes. One big flat deck space to walk on. Beef up the transom a little to accomodate the outdrive...maybe put a swim platform over the dua prop to fish around...hell, I don't know...just something else to think about...we've pretty much covered everything on this post. Consider the tilt and trim factor on the outdrive and the fact of no rudders to deal with...no packing glands either...I could keep going, but, I'm parched...time for another beer.Would be easy to put on and off of a trailer...no bottom job...ok, I'm done.

Shoot John, let's go all the way and connect that jack shaft to an IPS pod.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Jul 25th, '09, 10:25

maybe we could put an engine on the back deck with a big propeller and make a 31B airboat!

randall · Post by **randall** » Jul 25th, '09, 16:07

a little more keel and a mast and boom....fuel economy plus.

bertram31.com

Outboards on 31 Express??

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