I am preparing to move my new to me Bertram 28 from New York to Maine. I have driven the boat for approx 15 hours and I'm somewhat frustrated with the handling.
The 1981 Bertram 28 Flybridge Cruiser has Hynautic hydraulic steering and the original rudders.
On Saturday morning we bled the hydraulic lines at the helm end and the cylinder end of the system. This helped but in 3-4 foot seas offshore, we still ended up sideways every 10 minutes even though doing our best to keep the boat on track.
I know it's not just my inexperience because the guy who is helping me has lived on his boat and traveled the world for the last 30 years ... he too thinks something is wrong.
I purchased the larger Bertram 31 rudders but have not installed them yet. Did these boats really leave the factory handling this poorly? Or - should I be looking for something else? Are the port and starboard engines counter-rotating on this boat? I'm half wondering whether they replaced one of the counter rotating engines with one that isn't!
Anyway, it really seems like when I turn the steering wheel, the boat hardly responds.
Sure as hell sounds to me that something is wrong. Yes the engines should be counter rotating. Are they counter rotating the right way? You have a good steering system with Hydnautic Hydraulic, and new bigger rudders would always help, but even the standard rudders shouldn't have you in the situation you have described.
The propellers are to be counter rotating......unless someone has changed that over the years.......I am assuming we are talking gas engines...... Sometimes, but not very often, engines could be the same rotation and the gears will change rotation......look at the prop shaft rotation, not the engines
I have an 83 28B with standard rotating merc 300HP engines. The counter rotating comes from the way the linkage is attached to the tranny's. I also have hynautic on the steering with the original rudders. The boat steers great through rough seas. The only time I've noticed squirrely steering is when I've got her trimmed wrong. An example is when I am running at 2950 where I cruise and drop her down to "slow speed" and get into a bigger boats wake. I'm sure that the larger rudders would make a difference and I'll get them next time I have to remove them for some reason.
They are gas engines ... Vortec 5.7 310hp. Not sure which gears but I'll find out. I'll also verify whether the props counter-rotate or not.
The max rpm is 3900 so I think the former owner had chosen a larger pitch or diameter propeller because I think these engines should generally obtain 4500 rpm?
The boat attains 29 knots full throttle and 24 knots at approx 3200 rpm. Seems pretty good to me.
The slow speed handling while maneuvering to park seems fine.
I suppose my next test will be to watch the rudders as we cruise at 15 knots or so and make sure the rudders do not move while the steering wheel is stationary.
I'm not going to be able to get a look at the props again until it comes out of the water to fit the larger rudders.
I suppose another test could be, how does it steer with one engine shut down. That answer is probably .... not at all!
The proper trim setting has been a bit of a mystery too. I have left them fully retracted and also tried a little bit of bow forward. Neither seems to be the right configuration.
Some other things to consider:
How much weight is up front? The radar arch and canvas is all wieght and drag which will affect handling, especially in 3-4's. If you use those giant trim tabs I see in the photos, they can and will steer the boat, especially if you are bow heavy. My tabs are not nearly that big. I was playing with them the other day wehn the water wat flat calm. Straight line one minute and cuting left or right the next. Depending on tab placement you can get bow to act like a rudder. At slow speeds with both engines you do not even need rudders for close quarters in fact do not touch the wheel, it will just frustrate you. The boat handles like a dream for docking and close quarters. Do not forget engine RPM. If one throttle drops back as little as 200 rpm, it will change everything along with the previoulsy mentioned variables. Stock rudders, maybe bow heavy, lots of sail area/windage, giant trim tabs etc. I do have to pay attention at my helm even with bigger rudders constant adjustment to steer a straight course.
Find out what the rated WOT rpm is on those engines and prop the boat so they will reach them for the sake of the longevity of them. Sounds like she's overpropped. You're getting speed but also putting stress at those rpm's. The boat can easily handle the way you have her rigged. How many turns on the steering wheel full port to starboard?
walterk wrote:Find out what the rated WOT rpm is on those engines and prop the boat so they will reach them for the sake of the longevity of them. Sounds like she's overpropped. You're getting speed but also putting stress at those rpm's. The boat can easily handle the way you have her rigged. How many turns on the steering wheel full port to starboard?
4 turns to stop one way ... 5 turns to stop the other way.
Called Charman regarding the Hynautic steering ... They recommended 15 turns starboard then open pinned hex nut under the reservoir for 2 seconds ... then close. Then 15 turns port .. Open and close pinned hex nut under reservoir for 2 sec. Says repeat this procedure several times and should improve.
Bayside Bert 28
Congratulations on your new boat. I know the boat from Spellmans and she is a fine example of a well cared for Bertram. The two items it could be are the steering system and, as Skipper Dick mentioned, the bow trimmed down too far. I ran my 28 for fifteen years prior to installing Captain Pat's rudders. The smaller rudders should not be an issue at cruise. However, the new ones are amazing at low speeds. My boat is in the marina just south of Spellmans. If you are still in the area and need some help, call me on my cell phone at 516-749-3660. Once you get these initial bugs fixed, you will not hesitate to take it anywhere.
Harry
The Charman people are terrific. Helpful, knowledgeable, responsive and very fairly priced on anything you buy from them. Hydnautic is owned by Teleflex in Canada, but a call to them will get you a recording and no call back. Stick with Charman. If it's in your steering system, they'll fix it. Have Harry look at the shaft rotation to see if they're correct. I am SURE that is a fine handling boat. Walter
I am new to B28 ownership too - I have not experienced any of the "handling issues" that you have - thank goodness.
What I have realized - is that the stock rudders are worthless at low speeds - take your hand off the wheel (centered) and steer putting the boat into and out of gear. sort of like steering a tank.
I've also found that if you don't match the rpms in the engines - that can effect handling - Don't trim the bow down too much or it can bow steer.
watch coming off a plane - again watch the rpms or she will corkscrew a little on you.
A bad (worn) spot will allow the fluid to get past the seal and the rudders will not hold. One way to check is have somone try and hold the rudder from moving as you slowly rotate the wheel from stop to stop. Then go back the other way. You have to turn pretty slow and steady to pick up a small worn area. For me it was almost like you stopped turning the wheel for a couple of seconds then started again. When it finally got bad you could turn the wheel conitnously at a slow rate and the rudder would not move.
Lots or weight forward, tabs down or not fully retracted would also do that.
Before I installed Capt. Pat's larger rudders, I had to slow down to make some of the sharp turns in the Tickfaw River. In a beam sea, forget about steering the thing. Now, she steers fine in any sea condition at any speed. Change the rudders before you do anything else. You will be amazed that 1" bigger all around the rudder could make such a difference.
I had the same boat (1981) with the stock engines and rudder for 2 years. I never had any issues with the way the boat ran. I do notice in the pics that someone put some after market trim tabs on. At anything over 20 knots you don't need them. So if you're cruising at 24 knots makes sure the tabs are trimmed all the way up.
sounds to me you have worn steering on the tabs are not fully retracted. Those tabs are about twice as big as they need to be. They look like the ones on my 35B, If you get the nose down in a following sea she will bow steer in a heart beat. On my 35 I run with some tabs all the time except in a following sea coming through the inlet. On my 28B I used the tabs to balance the load after I get the folks to stop moving around. No tabs in a following sea. I had a 1973 28B with stock rudder and the boat handled just fine. Hell I could even get her going straight with one motor, just takes practice. Larger rudders is not going to solve your problem.
Congrats on the B28, she looks to be in great shape.
I agree that you may be experiencing some bow steer. I had some in my B35 before converting to diesel. When I had her in the ocean the first time I was wearing myself out compensating for the bow steer in a following sea. The after a while I started to slow up on my corrections and noticed the boat would correct itself so unless it really heeled over I just let the boat do what it wanted.
I just noticed the size of the tabs in the picture - WOW! those are some serious trim tabs. I'd go out with them fully retracted and see how she does - I'll bet you a dollar that you are getting bow steer with those puppies. Again - I am not an expert but know with my pursuit if I get the tabs down all the way it will start acting all crazy.
We made it to Portland! ... we took another look at the steering Wed afternoon at Spellmans in Hampton Bays NY. Harry Woods stopped by to offer guidance and assistance. Don identified that the steering linkage was loose due in part to being somewhat loose at the ram and also due to the spring used on one of the tie rod couplings was 1/2 the tension it needed to be. I managed to find a couple of non-stock springs that will work for now. We then re-bled the system according to much simplified instructions from Charman. That did it. Feeling much more confident, Harry came for a quick spin in the Shinecock Bay to verify that the steering was acting as it should. We even stopped by to see Harry's B28 with the Yanmar diesels.
And we were off ... Thursday we made it through the Cape Cod canal and spent the night in Gloucester MASS. The seas were quite heavy for a good portion of the trip but we were never slower than 10 knots and the boat felt great. Friday, woke up to dense fog so we made good use of the radar. The seas were quite calm so we were doing 20-24 knots for most of the way into Portland ME.
Next week, I'll move the boat from Portland to it's new home (Northport ME) in the community of Bayside on the Penobscot Bay.
I'll have a few photos in a day or so
Last edited by Bayside Bert28 on May 30th, '09, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.
