Holding Tank Q:

scot · Post by **scot** » May 18th, '09, 15:14

Can holding tanks be made from aluminum, are the chemicals too harsh and will damage an aluminum tank? I have noticed everything for sale is HDPE.

Also, need to move the "bio-mass material" up hill from the head, what's the plumbling / pump scenario on this? The head will be electric.

Thanks

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » May 18th, '09, 15:31

Scot,
Next time you are at the public bathrooms take a look at the metal sheilds in between the stalls. They are usually very rusty/corroded. I read somewhere that urine was VERY corrosive and I am guessing that is why they use that plastic stuff. I am sure the pros will chime in.

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » May 18th, '09, 16:44

Kevin,

You are absolutely correct about aluminum tanks and urine. I remember seening one made out of galvanized sheet metal and it only lasted about a year. Stainless is another one too, but I'd get a poly tank. They aren't as strong as metal, but they are impervious to just about anything including acid.

Dick

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 18th, '09, 17:01

Scot,

Either rotocast HDPE or vinylester/glass are the best options, & in that order. Aluminum is totally out and stainless isn't a good choice either, primarily because of the welds.

As long as "up hill" isn't an excessive height or distance, the head discharge pump won't have any difficulty in delivering the pay load. The head will have, (or should have), a check valve to keep the effluent from backing into the bowl. Your up hill run will probably start with a down hill first and then swing up. Because of this, you'd probably want to flush twice, or at least at the end of any day that the head has been used. That will clear the line of any really bad stuff.

Here's the schematic of the system I'm using on Hancock's B31. The head is the Techma Silence Standard, raw water fed, flushing into a 20 gallon rotocast HDPE tank. No option to flush overboard, but options to either pump overboard or pump out at a sanitary station.

Because the holding tank is installed in an engine compartment, I double insulated it from the heat. 3/4" Styrofoam, top, bottom, and sides, then wrapped the top and three sides with 1" sound proofing, 1 3/4" total.

The tank was purchased from Plastic Mart & has 3/8" thick walls. Plenty strong...

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 18th, '09, 17:35

The head will have, (or should have), a check valve to keep the effluent from backing into the bowl

No check valves unless its the duck bill type used on the Sea Land systems. No bronze type.

In place of a check valve, a vented loop acting as a syphon break will work also.

Some of you guys watch the bowl height with the water line to prevent the inlet water from filling the bowl while not running. Speed scoops are not recommended for head intakes.

Pat,
Check the state regulations for the switch type on that macerator. It may require a key type switch to make it controllable for accidental pumpout inside of the limit.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 18th, '09, 19:52

No check valves unless its the duck bill type used on the Sea Land systems. No bronze type.

What I was refering to is the flapper check valve on the discharge side of the head macerator...

scot · Post by **scot** » May 18th, '09, 20:28

Thanks guys,

Patrick,
The electric heads advertise a "built in macerator"...so does it need another macerator on the overboard pump out? I would think a decent quality 1" pump should work "if" the stuff is already macerated at the head? Or is "double macerating" the thing to do?

In the drawing, what is the raw water pump for? Shouldn't the water level feed the head? Don't the head's have raw water pumps in them?

In the drawing...where would a vented loop go?

You guys bear with me here, I'm trying to upgrade the 25's 1969 Groco. 2 lines...one in, one out. "Push peddle and pump".

Can the Groco push up hill? The Bertram OEM Groco's are $1,000!! today. That's an expensive manual head. Is there a way to use the Groco + raw water pump + macerator?....do they make an electric conversion? Is it worth keeping?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 18th, '09, 21:07

never differ with you capt. patrick but i am rather adamant about this one. you should have purchase a electric head with water pump/mascerator built into it. why would you ever want to put "unmascerated" do do into the holding tank.you know whats building up in the bottom of that tank!!!! only put do do in a watery state in the tank.output should be at bottom of tank to remove everything and waste going in for safety sake go`s thru one way valve or vented loop. my tank is located in the same place on shelf .i use fresh water because the ladies use head on weekends salt water heads are sickening especially with pine fresheners i rather be in 12' seas!!!!

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 18th, '09, 21:19

The electric heads advertise a "built in macerator"...so does it need another macerator on the overboard pump out? I would think a decent quality 1" pump should work "if" the stuff is already macerated at the head? Or is "double macerating" the thing to do?

Better safe than sorry...

In the drawing, what is the raw water pump for? Shouldn't the water level feed the head? Don't the head's have raw water pumps in them?

The Techma doesn't have it's own self contained supply pump...

In the drawing...where would a vented loop go?

Since I'm not opting to pump over board through a "Y" valve, a vented loop isn't necessary. If you're opting to flush directly overboard, the vented loop would be above the water line & between the head and the overboard discharge through hull valve.

You guys bear with me here, I'm trying to upgrade the 25's 1969 Groco. 2 lines...one in, one out. "Push peddle and pump".

Can the Groco push up hill? The Bertram OEM Groco's are $1,000!! today. That's an expensive manual head. Is there a way to use the Groco + raw water pump + macerator?....do they make an electric conversion? Is it worth keeping?

Anything with the Grocco lable is top of the line type equipment. There are other good brands... Any pump worth having can pump up hill. The higher the hill and longer the line, the bigger the pump needed.

In my case the total vertical push is 40" and the length of the push, from head to tank, is about 84". I don't foresee any problems.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 18th, '09, 21:27

i have the oem one with the optional water rinse along the top of the bowl.looks brand new .clean perfect condition. cost you .o1 plus postage.

scot · Post by **scot** » May 18th, '09, 22:03

I mis-spoke. I'm trying to maybe upgrade FROM a 69 Groco push/pump model, or modify it to be electric, or at least electric assist. Bascially I am a complete novice in the marine sanitation discipline.

Bob, the bowl is clean as a whistle...does that mean it has the flush system your talking about? I haven't really examined it closely.

So it's the salt water systems that smell really bad? The V-berth is small and we're planning a little 5,000BTU AC and spending a few nights in there (our faces will be approx 3 ft from the the head!!...I need very little odor or I will be by myself quickly)

From what I have designed in my head, the Y valve will be "after" the holding tank, so I assume no vented loop would be required? It will exit the holding tank well above the water line.

The up hill push is about 12"-14" so I suppose its no big deal. I like the quality of the Groco (all bronze, heavy duty, china bowl, etc)...but I will have lots of women on board. Wife, 2 daughters, etc. I have no image in my mind of any of them peddling and pumping. I believe it would go like this: "get down here, this thing won't flush"...hence my questions on the electric upgrades. They push buttons very well.

Can the boat's raw water pump be routed to the Groco and create a peddle + push-buttom head?...add a macerator before the holding tank. That way they (my females) would only have to peddle and push a button? This would be easy with a charged header from the wash down pump?....if the Groco unit can accomodate this modification.

Moving turds from one location to another is not as fun as talking about engines and gears.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 18th, '09, 22:18

terrible discussion to say the least however we do what we got to due for the women in our lifes. remember high school science? the one cell omeba sp?? well they die in the saltwater head and then stick so you you put that pine scent in the toilet after a couple of days the smell become sickening .my opinion ;why go thru the money and work of a thru hull out the bottom, with expensive bronze ball valve etc. just install plastic one way off fresh water pump to head.
scot the option can be seen by looking on left side of head there is a round chamber adjacent to the seat. in it is a mascerator and pump that sents the water in a circle downward from top to totally flush toilet.i am not going to elaborate any further.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 18th, '09, 22:36

Peggy Hall wrote:You have read or heard, over and over again, that the key to odor control is the hose, that hose permeates with sewage and causes the system to stink. Thatâ€™s folklore. The key to odor control is in the installation of the entire system. What very few people in the marine industry have learned is the very nature of sewage itself and how it breaks down, what creates odor and what prevents odor from forming. Once we understood proven sewage management principles and how to apply them to onboard systems, we were able to install systems that are completely odor-free and correct the ones that werenâ€™t. Once you understand it--and itâ€™s so simple!--you can do the same thing.

There are two ways to deal with holding tank odor: try to reduce it, mask it, and contain it after itâ€™s formed, by using chemicals and filtersâ€”which has never proven very successfulâ€¦or prevent odor from forming in the first place by applying the same principles that are used to balance and maintain sewage treatment ponds. In fact, sewage treatment ponds only stink when theyâ€™ve been unbalanced biologically by an overload of chemicals! Hereâ€™s how it works:

Sewage contains both aerobic (need oxygen to survive and thrive), and anaerobic bacteria (thrive in an airless environment); neither can function in the otherâ€™s environment. Why is that important? Because only the anaerobic bacteria in sewage produce foul-smelling gasses! Aerobic bacteria break sewage down, as does anaerobic bacteria--but aerobic bacteria do not generate odor. So as long as there is a sufficient supply of air to the tank, and an aerobic bacteria treatment is added to aid that which naturally occurs in sewage, the aerobic bacteria thrive and overpower the anaerobic bacteria, and the system remains odor free.

The whole article is titled: Marine Sanitation: Fact vs. Folklore

Peggy Hall has long been considered the foremost authority on Marine Sanitation Systems...

Capt.Frank · Post by **Capt.Frank** » May 19th, '09, 10:14

My Question is What size holding tank do you guys have? How long do they take to fill up? Marina pump outs are few and far between.

Thanks
Frank

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 19th, '09, 11:56

Capt.Frank wrote:My Question is What size holding tank do you guys have? How long do they take to fill up? Marina pump outs are few and far between.

There's no set rule for size of a holding tank, just the biggest that you can install in the space you have available... Consider that the average marine head can use up to 2 gallons per use. You need to allow for expansion room of the contents and leave a margin so that you don't have an overflow situation.

So, on the 20 gallon tank I've installed I have the FULL sensor set at approximately 18 gallons. That's only good for 9 uses before it needs to be pumped out. (An emergency use might allow one or two more flushes...)

Training and pre-programing guests and crew are helpful in reducing the use load. First, everyone should take a healthy BM before going out on the boat. Guys need to not be shy of peeing over the side of the boat. Gals, well what can I say, they're gonna' use the head regardless of what. Basically, that's why you even have a head onboard, emergencies and girls.

Oh, and NO ONE uses the head and valuable holding tank capacity to puke in!

Br,

Patrick

BCBertie · Post by **BCBertie** » May 19th, '09, 14:11

Sorry to piggyback on this thread...

I rebuilt my Groco head last year to the tune of about $350 by the time I was done with parts, powdercoating, etc. It looks and works beautifully, but...

The seat (which has instructions on the underside) has a very crackled finish and I'd like to replace it. They don't seem to be available anymore as all the ones I've ordered don't match the bowl and Groco lists it as NR. Does anyone have a source for this?

Cheers!

John

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 19th, '09, 15:07

Fair it and paint with 545 and Awlgrip!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 19th, '09, 15:32

The Techma Bob has a built in macerator and bowl pump out.

FW water would be nice but not enough capacity on the 31 for it.

Stinky heads are one way of keeping women off of boats were they generaly bitch and complain the whole time.

They don't like it use the head in the marina before they leave and be damn glad its not a bucket with a toilet lid and plastic bag under neath.

Scott,
I would not use a standard pump as the secondary pump out. As one in the 80's who was a Raritan dealer and pulled many lectra san units apart with one macerator motor and one mixer motor, the secondary chamber held some pretty good chunks that would clogg a standard impeller pump.

A good value is the Par electric conversion head kit. Most bowls from other heads can be bolted down to them and they contain a built in macerator with a one inch ID hose outlet which makes running hose that much simpler.

Vented loop is gereraly within 4 to 5 feet of the head outlet.

In salt water you bring in small particles of grass and creatures. When you flush they get lodged in the little holes at the top of the bowl.

They then dryout and rot. Next time you flush you flush those stinky remnants into the bowl. Fine inlet filters do help to prevent this but need constant cleaning with regular head use.

Raritan used to and may still have a couple gallon tank that you put a chemical into to that drew everytime you flushed. Saw them mostly on those piece of crap, high power use crown heads. That helped to but was a big pain in the ass keeping it filled.

Funny head story:
Old Port Cove Marina back in the 80's was a hot spot for sportfish boats and hanging out on the dock. It was great. But so was the depravity among boat owners.

Got a call that a guys Crown head was tripping the breaker. Owners wife met me at the boat. Easy to check as the front cover faced out and after removing about 10 screws it popped off and you could see the macerator blades and that is where generally things got lodged that weren't supposed to go into a head.

In this one was a fairly large Tampon. I removed it, put the cover on and the head worked fine.

Came out of the head with the Tampon dangling from a pair of plyers and scolded the woman for putting it down the head.

Excuse me she said, I haven't been on the "rag" for quite a few years.

I guess my husband has some splaining to do and stormed off the boat.

scot · Post by **scot** » May 19th, '09, 21:32

The seat (which has instructions on the underside) has a very crackled finish and I'd like to replace it

Based on the age of these heads, I assumed the seat was painted mahogony? I was considering removing the cracked, antique paint, staining and varnishing? The wood itself on mine is not cracked, just the paint. Also, couldn't the bronze base be dipped in muratic acid, dried and then sprayed with clear coat to maintain the shine?

BTW, I have to say this has been one of the most informative threads I have ever been involved with. This was an area of my project I knew ZERO about. Thanks to all who added and the article link posted by Capt Patrick is extremely informative. I feel comfortable designing my system at this point. Of course I have some unorthodox ideas about how I will do my system, but the basics have been covered extremely well.

One last question; will a macerator pump flow backwards via gravity?...if not, then it becomes a defacto check valve?

Thanks again to all.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » May 19th, '09, 21:59

What was OEM for the 31s as a head, the previous owner removed the head from my boat and put a porta poti in, there was no holding tank right?

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » May 19th, '09, 22:45

No Bertram 31 was made with a holding tank. The requirement came after they stopped making B-31's.

Pete Fallon · Post by **Pete Fallon** » May 19th, '09, 23:26

Guy's,
The OEM early 1961-1966 31's had Groco heads some were manual and some had a 12v motor attached to the side of the bowl with a linkage arm connected to manual flush lever. Guts were duck bill choker valve, that would not pass anything larger than 1''. Later models had Raratin bowls with Lecrasan system. Neither worked worth a good sh*t. Holding tanks weren't required until 1981. There are no set size requirements for holding tanks, just have to have one on board, most are 6 gallons, it depends on how much crap your crew produces. Most of our boats are used offshore beyond no discharge zones. I have mine set-up with a 12v Galley Maid that has a stainless steel macerator blade and Y valve from tank to overboard discharge fitting, gravity flow when underway offshore. Just remember to put cable tie on Y valve after switching back when inside, marine patrol loves to give out fines for direct discharge inshore. The Galley Maid will actually chop up small herrring for chum slick, my drunken crew tried it one time.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 20th, '09, 06:50

i have a jabsco deluxe electric toilet with electronic touch pad controller.100% porcelein regular household size .i get 100 flushes to a tank of fresh water ,why woulf i ever need more than that for a day with the family??? i put alot of effort into the entire head area to accomodate wife and grandchildren .all plumbing is concealed and area looks like a million bucks never a odor, toilet is state of the art a little differcult to install but afterwards i would not even be open to sugestion! fresh water is the only way to go !!!!.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 20th, '09, 08:08

i get 100 flushes to a tank of fresh water

And your flush tank is how big??

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 20th, '09, 08:48

"The Galley Maid will actually chop up small herrring for chum slick, my drunken crew tried it one time."

I haven't passed one of those in a while, so it should work for me!!! LOL!! I did have a friends kid sneak up and put a live minnow in my beer once! It went down in one gulp, much to my surprise and their merriment!

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » May 20th, '09, 10:27

Everybody should do whats best for them. That being said, for me, I took the head out. I have a bucket and a seat that clips on. Fill with some sea water and go. Dump over the side. I go off shore alot and having poo poo in a tank sloshing around in 3 to 5 foot seas is not going to work for me. I took the system off my big boat and put in the Incinolet toilets and burn it up, no water just ash. Save your money, sh#t in a bucket and if the girls dont like it well tuff. Spend the money on something else.

scot · Post by **scot** » May 20th, '09, 11:02

It's not the idea of sh**ing in the bucket that bothers my women folk. It's the idea of bringing it out of the cabin in full view of guest and pouring it over the side.

And then there is the bucket rinse out procedure, again while the guest watch in amazement as your wife walks around in a pitching boat with a bucket full of her sh**t.

I don't want to be around for that party....lol.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 20th, '09, 12:18

Tell them to go before they leave the dock or hold it!! They will like that! No nookie for you for weeks!! LOL!!!

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 20th, '09, 12:27

Rawleigh wrote:Tell them to go before they leave the dock or hold it!! They will like that! No nookie for you for weeks!! LOL!!!

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe I've just been married too long.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » May 20th, '09, 12:38

No nookie. Im not getting any anyways. Well Ill be devorced soon.

AndreF · Post by **AndreF** » May 20th, '09, 12:42

Congratulations Brew!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 20th, '09, 19:31

No nookie for you for weeks

Thats what girl friends are for.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 20th, '09, 20:09

20 gallon mounted exactly like you did but waste going in is totally liquid.and output is from extreme bottom of tank. i let go when i am offshore fishing. we have a duel action 31 bert here during the week it is along side brewster on every sunny weekend it becomes the part boat for the family . i even remove fighting chair and insert large unbrella so wife is very happy with grandchildren around here and (this is princess "D" look alike) loves the boat . now you know why i went crazy with the head i even went to a special hose place to buy NASA sanitation pipe made by pirelli to go from toilet to vent loop to tank. trust me there is not even a slightest scent that your in a head. the grand children go to the head 5 times a day drinking those box juice drinks and the 1 quart flush works perfectly.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 20th, '09, 21:31

Bob,

The tank I was asking about is the capacity of your fresh water tank for flushing the head, (not the waste holding tank)... And located where?

Br,

Patrick

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 20th, '09, 21:36

i have the oem 18 gallon tank in the stock location and a 6 gallon tank mounted just foward of the head bulkhead against the hull actually that excess dead space in back of refrigerator side panel.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 21st, '09, 08:31

LOL, what a post...

My wife wouldn't care about the bucket. The kids, that could go either way depending on the moment (two girls that can change their minds mid-way thru a sentence and just packed with attitude to back there position),

but now just thinking about giving my Mother-in-law THE BUCKET...that is priceless.

LOL, what a post...

Me, I have a Porta-Potti installed, but it is the DELUXE Model. Boat came to me with one and after some thought I just decided to go with it. Buy a new one every few years when they start to hold an oder

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » May 21st, '09, 14:32

I stupidly started reading this while eating lunch..

I was OK with the technical stuff even though the subject was Gross..

Had some problems swallowing when the discussion turned to "chunks"

But after reading Bruce's post on his dockside repair...I had to throw away
a perfect Italian Sausage sub I stopped at home to make today....

Thanks...laughed my a-- off though...

Ray

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » May 21st, '09, 19:56

You haven't lived life until a stopped up Lectra San pops a hose and sprays down the front of you everything that the head users had eaten in the last few days.

Had a kid working for me in the 80's that that happened to. He was throwing up for days. Never touched corn again.

Or here's another good one. A call from a 400lb Jabba the Hut who's head stopped working yet he decided to keep using it and piling up crap for 4 days before trying to get it fixed.

No amount of money could have made me take that job.

scot · Post by **scot** » May 21st, '09, 23:07

Bruce:

A call from a 400lb Jabba the Hut who's head stopped working yet he decided to keep using it and piling up crap for 4 days before trying to get it fixed.

Jabba has a serious lack of respect for other humans to expect another person to deal with that.

I was on a work boat for a week and the tanks backed up into the shower, it got about 4" deep in there by the end of the day...when we all needed showers. We stayed on the boat for another week using a 5 gal bucket on the back deck and jumped in the Gulf with a bar of soap every evening....ah those were the days.

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » May 22nd, '09, 06:09

We all talk how gross this is and how no amount of money would make us work for some of these people..

A friend of mine who started a drain cleaning business back in the late 80's told us some stories that would turn even the toughest of steel stomachs. later during the great times of the late nineties into 2007 we all would dump(no pun) all over this guy while we worked 3 days a week and fished the other 4 this guy was working 6-7 days a week.

Last year while we all started crying, he was out buying 2 - $50,000 cameras that go into drains and a $100,000 truck mounted water jet for municipal jobs. Now he's up to 25 trucks running around a 50 mile radius of us and just retired to the Keys while his son runs the place at 50....

When you gotta go you gotta go..... money or no money...talk about a recession proof business...

I still think I'd develop a serious taste for GOVT cheese before I stuck my hand down someones crap hole...

lobsta1 · Post by **lobsta1** » May 22nd, '09, 09:25

Tunawish,
You have to be talking about Frank. He used to own a 32 Carver & was in my marina.
Al

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » May 22nd, '09, 17:57

Al ...that's the guy...

Was it before of after the Carver did he have that Cigarette??

He's got a nice deal now, ....

lobsta1 · Post by **lobsta1** » May 22nd, '09, 22:01

Don't know about the cigarette. I know once he got into the humvees in a big way, he lost interest in his Carver. I think it left the dock twice a year. My dockmaster bought it & he is a year round live aboard on it.

That is also the boat that they lost the diver on this week on the Chester Poling wreck outside Gloucester harbor.
Al

tunawish · Post by **tunawish** » May 22nd, '09, 22:11

It wasn't just the Humvees either but the Harleys the A/C Cobra the trips cross country, the women... Nice to be single....with money to burn

WOW..I'll have to get a message to him about the boat..another friend of mine and Frank were real close I lost touch when he moved...

Ray

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