Anybody look at the new Marine VW Diesels?

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » May 5th, '09, 14:38

Seems like they (VW) have plenty of experience running diesels in europe.

Their TDI line is recognized as a value leader.

Now they have a marine line of diesels - They seem to have a pretty good handle on packaging.

They are positioning their TDI 350 as a big block replacement - the one above as a small black replacement (810 mm length)

Thoughts?

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 6th, '09, 07:31

Interesting! What are the HP/torque/RPM spec?

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » May 6th, '09, 07:56

VW's track record on marine diesels is terrible. Maybe this try will be a success; but if past performance is any indication they don't have a clue.

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » May 6th, '09, 08:17

Yeah - that's what I figured - but I also figure that the past five years development of diesels - especially in Europe has exploded. Hell - diesels have won LeMans and Sebring - who would have thought that possible ten years ago.

http://www.vw-m.de/index.php?id=444&L=1

The TDI - 6- 265hp
Engine type 6-cylinder turbo diesel
Fuel system Common rail direct injection
Charge Turbocharger VTG**
Boost intercooling Seawater tube heat exchanger
Cylinders V 6
Displacement [cmÂ³] 2967
Stroke [mm] 91.4
Bore [mm] 83,0
Compression ratio 17:1
Performance (ISO 3046) [kW] 195
Performance [HP] 265
At 4200 rpm
Specific power output [kW/l] 65.72
Appr. piston speed [m/s] 12.8
Max. torque [Nm] 550
At 2000 rpm
Min. specific fuel consumption be [g/kW] 212
Weight [kg]* 325
Alternator 180 A
Electrical system 12 V
Oil change Once a year or after 200 hours of operation. (depending on which occurs first)
Cooling Thermostatically controlled double circuit cooling system with heat exchangers, collective exhaust pipe and water-cooled exhaust turbocharger, oil cooled charger, engine oil cooling, hydraulic oil cooling

The TDI 8-350hp

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » May 6th, '09, 08:26

Other than the DD's and 3208's, you don't see a lot of V configurations in diesels. I don't really see the benefit of going to the VW. In addition to the increased speed and lower fuel burn I got by re-powering with Cummins 6BTA's, I also liked the extra room the straight 6 provided over the V-8's.

JeremyD · Post by **JeremyD** » May 6th, '09, 09:13

You B31's have more room for a straight six - no room for those in the B28's. So from a packaging standpoint - you either go with the 4 cyl yanmars, or the 6- Steyrs or repower with gas. With all the development in diesels, especially in europe - you would think that there would be more options. More options means more competition which should drive the prices down. There is no reason a diesel engine should cost 4 times what a gas engine cost. I should still be a ways off with my original engines (1500 hours) before repowering - but I like to do my homework - and I really like to have options.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » May 6th, '09, 09:53

The marine environment is all about durability and corrosion resistance. I would think that is probably where VW's weak point would be, since I don't know how much experience they have with those issues.

Harv · Post by **Harv** » May 6th, '09, 11:22

JeremyD wrote: There is no reason a diesel engine should cost 4 times what a gas engine cost.

Actually if you look closely, the price difference it's no where near 4 times as much. The 496 cu in Merc or Crusader go for between $12,000-$18,000. I can pick up a recon Cummins 315 or 330 in that same price range. Brand new QSB's or Yanmars are $10,000 more. Not quite twice as much. The real difference comes in wth the addition of new gears, shafts, struts, and props required by the diesels.

On another note, if gas engines are cheaper and require more frequent replacement than diesel, it only stands to reason that diesel makers want to realize the same portion of the pie as gas manufacturers, but by selling fewer engines.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 6th, '09, 19:21

My recon Cummins 270's paid for March 2008 came in at $17,745 a piece so you need to figure in a slight price increase. I know one of the other board members purchased the same engines off of another dealer ab out a year before me and his numbers came in about the same. So figure 18 today and add about $3,000 to go up to the 315 Cummins. So Harv is close.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 6th, '09, 19:42

tony are those prices with gears? i purchase my 330 in 2006 with no gears,or gauges for 17,200 each. i belive it was a thank you for being a lunatic driver. help sell 16 boats and took certain buyer from other boat manufacturers by driving into the inlet 8' waves at wot---------never again!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 6th, '09, 20:44

Bob

That is with the wiring harness and gauges no gears. Gears are about $3,500 more. I checked around, a couple of other dealers wanted 2 to 3 more for the same engine. I figured if one of the other board members purchased his off of another dealer just north of me for around the same price, I was getting charged a fair price.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 6th, '09, 21:52

tony you made the best possible choice. you and i both know "the story" my particular case was actually funny. recon---huh!!!!! i know cummins is screwing the gorvernment but this benefits the smart people like you.my engine storm block date code march/06 i received the engines may/06 do you actually think somebody bought these engines (1 digit apart) put 20'000 hours on them sent them back to the factory rebuilt them and them ship them to the yard in two months$%^&* . they were on the engine dyno 314hp at 2790 out of box. the engines are brand new . what part of new does the stupid public not understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!why in god`s name would anybody even entertain the thought of buying any other engine in the 270hp -315hp is beyond me.then again the extra $18,000 helps stimulate world economy or you want to get rid of the cash before your wife takes it.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 7th, '09, 20:26

two Yanmar 315hp with gears came in at just over $42000 delivered.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 7th, '09, 20:42

Jspiezio

When I priced the 315's before I bought the Cummins, price was like 23 a piece then I had to buy the gauges, it was not a package. I was going ot be close to 50 without gears. The 42 you got them for sounds really cheap.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 7th, '09, 20:44

Tony Meola wrote:Jspiezio

When I priced the 315's before I bought the Cummins, price was like 23 a piece then I had to buy the gauges, it was not a package. I was going ot be close to 50 without gears. The 42 you got them for sounds really cheap.

Dad is a very good negotiator.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 7th, '09, 22:43

tony just prior to the 315hp yammy mechanicals not meeting tier 3 standards they were reduced in price. i believe jspiezio purchase mechanicals. there is a off the wall conversion from mercedes 6 cylinder to convert to present day serpentine belt . marine manifolds corp.from farmingdale long island makes the new exhaust elbow out of 316 ss to replace oem. alluminum one.a word to the wise check it after every ooil change.major deterioation after a few years will cause a sluged engine if not checked.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » May 8th, '09, 05:51

bob lico wrote:tony just prior to the 315hp yammy mechanicals not meeting tier 3 standards they were reduced in price. i believe jspiezio purchase mechanicals. there is a off the wall conversion from mercedes 6 cylinder to convert to present day serpentine belt . marine manifolds corp.from farmingdale long island makes the new exhaust elbow out of 316 ss to replace oem. alluminum one.a word to the wise check it after every ooil change.major deterioation after a few years will cause a sluged engine if not checked.

They are, in fact, mechanicals Bob. The last ones, or so we were told, Mastry had. I know Marine Manifold, I think that they are on Toledo Street in Farmingdale, is that right? Those streets back there all blend together. Anyway, that is a great tip and I will make sure that it is followed up on.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 8th, '09, 21:34

Bob

That explains it. The ones I got a quote on would have come out of Mack Boring and they were not mechanicals. Thought something was amiss with the quote I received. Plus when I made my decision and signed on with the Cummins dealer, there were no good Yanmar Reps down my way. The one they had at that time (now we have two) had had shakey reports on.

The Cummins dealer I bought my engines from took Yanmar on after I purchased the Cummins. Doesn't matter either engine is great. I just save a ton of money by going with the Recons.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 9th, '09, 07:19

yes jspiezio thats him i would have to say he is the best in the business in the north. the key to the yanmar exhaust is to make sure the installer supports the exhaust in the front as close to the exhaust elbow as possible and uses a double hump silicon hose between elbow and down pipe.wnen the boat comes off a wave you need that double hump hose to take the shock and if no ( water filled) exhaust pipe weight you will not have a problem along with a fresh water wash out from crash valve .it comes down to a good installer and maint.engine should be mounted at least 5 " from foward bulkhead . you will have to remove every thing off the front of that engine to replaced rubber timming belt ,just thing ahead and make the job as easy as you can.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 9th, '09, 18:39

this is a example of marine manifolds work ,notice the braces supporting the exhaust elbows . this is what you need on the 4cyl, 6cyl, yanmar alluminum exhaust elbow. i only bring this to your attention because this is one of the "must" because when they crack there is no bells and whisles telling you that one has cracked .the raw water is going into the bilge unless you have a high water alarm you are going to lose her.this is a brace from marine manifolds.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 9th, '09, 18:41

and the port side. notice the double hump silicon hose.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 9th, '09, 20:17

the entire exhaust is from angelo at marine manifolds inc,you can use a heat blanket with ss bindings like i did or the best is total inclose in high temperature coating as you see here.

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » May 10th, '09, 07:35

Bob
Do you know if and where the Exhaust Coating, as shown in your pics, is available for the Do It Yourselfer???

Harry

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 10th, '09, 08:23

harry there is one shop by bruce maybe west palm area .i can contact east end diesel and then post .

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » May 10th, '09, 10:35

Thanks Bob
Just after I posted my question to you I also Gooled Marine Manifolds on Long Island.......then I sent them an email.......between the guys you are talking about and Marine Manif possibly we can get a reply.

Thanks

Harry

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 10th, '09, 11:02

Harry Babb wrote:Do you know if and where the Exhaust Coating is available for the Do It Yourselfer???

Harry,

JC Whitney carries exhaust wrap.

The son of the owner of Marine Exhaust Systems in WPB, split from dad's operation and went off on his own. He and I discussed hard wrapping a few years ago and the DIY version goes like this:

Wrap tightly to the desired thickness with woven asbestos belting. The thicker the better, but at least 2" for a 6" exhaust. Use stainless locking ties to secure the ends.

After that, coat the surface with polyester resin thickened with graphite powder. Then glass on carbon fiber tape, (LINK to carbon fiber tape), again using polyester resin and graphite powder. In the glassing stage, thicken the resin less than for the coating step, so that the tape is fully wet out. Use two layers of the carbon fiber tape. Don't be tempted to make the resin coating too thick, the thinner it is the faster it will dissipate it's heat and not over cook the resin.

Use a good quality polyester resin, not that "thick as honey" crap that Evercoat puts out... Don't use epoxy.

All of the wraps have to be as tight as possible, start to finish.

Now, I've never done a hard wrap on an exhaust system, but I have experimented with the carbon fiber and polyester resin for heat shielding and if the glassed components are not in direct contact with the heat source, the resin didn't break down. So, all caveats apply...

You might want to do some test wrapping to help determine how material to buy. Gonna' take a bunch and the stuff ain't cheap.

Br,

Patrick

Harry Babb · Post by **Harry Babb** » May 10th, '09, 21:03

That's pretty interesting Pat.....thanks for sharing.

It all makes good sense.....I would have never guessed that Polyester Resin would be use.....that's been my hangup ever since I first considered doing this.....what resin to use.

I have had several people strongly advise not to do the hard wrap....they say that moisture get trapped under the wrap and causes damage. My pipes are fabricated out of Stainless Steel......I really like the hard wrap myself....its durable and looks rugged.....past that I its just a preference....good or bad....

Thanks for the information....

Harry

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 10th, '09, 21:39

...they say that moisture get trapped under the wrap and causes damage.

And they've got a valid point...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 11th, '09, 06:41

I put that JC Whintey wrap on the Headers of the vette almost twenty years ago and the Aluminized Headers are still in descent shape. (AKA not rusted thru and leaking) I put the same Headers on the Suburban without wrap and those header rusted thru a few years later, it was also driven more....

I put the wrap on to cut down the temperture in the engine compartment and inside the car, in traffic my legs would roast, that stuff really worked well, really well.

Not sure if those results translate into Marine application. Down side is you can't see the pipes to check them. A bad pipe on the car just sounds loud...

Why put a hard coat over the wrap? Extra insulation? Make it look Purdy? More secure then wire wrapping?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » May 11th, '09, 06:59

Why put a hard coat over the wrap? Extra insulation? Make it look Purdy? More secure then wire wrapping?

Carl,

Primarily to give a cleanable, non-chafing, moisture resistant protection.

Br,

Patrick

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 11th, '09, 07:46

CaptPatrick wrote:Carl,

Primarily to give a cleanable, non-chafing, moisture resistant protection.

Br,

Patrick

I definately agree with the first two. Thanks.

bertram31.com

Anybody look at the new Marine VW Diesels?

Anybody look at the new Marine VW Diesels?

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