Whoa, Nellie

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Dec 10th, '08, 09:35

Tried some rock fishing yesterday but can't get her slowed down enough. Here's the skinny. 300 6BTA's running on one engine dragging two five-gallon buckets I get 3.5 kts. Need 2.5. LAzy damn fish won't chase anything faster. Season ends December 31 so don't have time to pull and re-prop. Tried slowing engines but they tend to lope below 800 rpm, which is not good. Adding trolling valves is $$$$$!
Any thoughts?

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Dec 10th, '08, 09:39

pray for a stiff wind and troll into it

STeveZ · Post by **STeveZ** » Dec 10th, '08, 09:44

Trolling with the tide should take a knot or two off, right?
(Speed through the water vs. speed over the bottom)

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 10th, '08, 09:46

Don't know if it'd work in your case, because of what yer draggin'...
But down here, the drill for sailfish is s-l-o-w trolling live baits.
One engine, bumped in & out of gear periodicaly. Can get pretty monotonous, tedious, etc- but once dialed in, it's a good method to acheive them blistering tortoise-like speeds.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 10th, '08, 09:56

Mokey,

Buju is on the money... The only way to get way down there without trolling valves is going in & out of gear. We called it "power drifting" in Palm Beach. Not to much hassle once you get the hang of it.

Br,

Patrick

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 10th, '08, 10:02

Mikey-

I've gad a couple guys tell me they're doing best at 1.5-2.0 knots. Get her way down.

John

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Dec 10th, '08, 10:12

if your pulling spoons bumping in and out of gear will not give you the steady action the spoons require. always look at your rod tips and make shure they have a steady pumping action to them. if not the spoons are not working the way there meant to be

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 10th, '08, 10:40

Mikey-You should be able to drop those engines down a little below 800 under load, especially when they're warmed up from running to the grounds. I troll for Bass using one engine and work my boat/lures against the tide so my SOG is slower. You may have to give up some pitch and make it up with cupping so you run slower at trolling/docking speeds. The cupping will give you the speed back at the upper end of your rpms. Zig-Zag patterns also help keep your lures in a wider range and help slow you down. Not fuel efficient but you're trolling with diesels that sip. Walter

JK · Post by JK » Dec 10th, '08, 10:43

Mikey,

For the record my performance is the same as yours. Idle is at about 700, 20x23 4 blade props, 6BTA 300hp and there is no way I can get to 3.5knts on one engine. In the marina I am bumping one engine in and out of gear to slow down. I remember offshore with both engines in gear at idle was about 5.8knts. I'm pulling the boat in a few hours, if I get a chance I will idle around and see what the #'s are

--JK

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Dec 10th, '08, 12:51

Charlie make a great point about pullings spoons....

Buju · Post by **Buju** » Dec 10th, '08, 13:04

if your pulling spoons bumping in and out of gear will not give you the steady action the spoons require

Don't know if it'd work in your case, because of what yer draggin'...

Yep, thats what I meant "because of what yer draggin"
... allthough...
I've caught many a fish on a spoon during a downward flutter (drop)...
Not saying that it works for striped bass by any means, I have never even fished for 'em.

Some of the guys who are real good at it, seem to be able to produce a pretty steady speed, without much in the way of fluctuations. Obviously it depends on the boat, power, gears, props, the whole shebang...

joeh · Post by **joeh** » Dec 10th, '08, 13:27

Mikey,

I am in Annapolis and have been out fishing a bunch lately. I have trolling valves and think they are a great investment. Certainly better than realestate or stocks. I can't imagine trying to troll with one engine. I have the 6btas as well.

I thought it was bad for bearings etc to use only one engine unless you needed to. I sense my data is bad on this one but thought I would ask.

Good Luck!

Face · Post by **Face** » Dec 10th, '08, 13:44

For now, you might try building a board with holes drilled through it and ropes attached that can be tied at your stern cleats, like a bigger bucket. Maybe a 2x8 or 2x12. I've only heard of this done (Tilghman Island trolling valve). You will have to experiment with the ropes from each corner of the board and might have to add some downrigger weights to stabilize the bottom.

It is absolutely key to slow down more for these fish, this time of year. The water is cold and bait is moving slow. You can't rely on fishing in one direction (with the current, against the current, across the current, and). Think current, not tide! Some days they favor the baits presented in one direction.
-Joe

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 10th, '08, 14:36

wow i wishi could get down to 3.5knt on one engine! 4.8knts with boat totally loaded with 230gal. of fuel and two 5gal buckets out the stern.charle is 100% right bumping in and out stops the action of those spoons on special fiberglass trol only rods with carbide rings.right now in the fire island inlet trolling unbrella rigs with foil type shad is the only method that is sucessful .with my boat i would be wasting my time.i put my boat on the hard to install windshield because i can`t troll inshore and the stripers are not taking live shad drifting belive it or not.i should add i cannot spell the current rage in artificial but they have little pieces of alluminum foil inside and seem to work best when tide is moving.i will sooner or later install trolling valve on one engine and equalize time offshore trolling on the other engine.phoenix maintains a perfect course on one engine you wouldn`t even know unless you look to see if the other engine is running.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 10th, '08, 17:02

Mikey,

Get an old hot tub and drill 10,000 1/4 holes in the bottom and drag it behind the boat.
When you get tired of fishing, jump in and enjoy yourself.

Rocker stoppers work just as well when used horizontaly instead of verticaly.

Or take the key out of your props and tighten the nut till you get just enough slip to slow you down.

Lobster pots wrapped around the props work well to limit thrust. Just ignore the pounding on the bottom.

randall · Post by **randall** » Dec 10th, '08, 17:11

good advice bruce....i was going to suggest dragging an old engine block on the bottom but your hot tub idea has added benifits.......and as long as its actually in the water it will leak inwardly.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 10th, '08, 17:37

I'm glad someone else understands the principle of inward water flow.

Without that, the whole reverse toilet water flow in Austrailia would be just one of the great mysteries of life.

Think I'll go make some tea from my trumpet plant.

JK · Post by JK » Dec 10th, '08, 17:48

I was at 4.7knts with one engine with minimal load and about 1/3 tank. 2 engines produced 5.9knts.

--JK

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 10th, '08, 17:54

jk don`t you just love backing into a tight slip after 3 hours at the wheel coming back from the canyon at 5.9knots

JK · Post by JK » Dec 10th, '08, 18:06

Having single lever controls makes docking so easy.

I should really work on getting every bit of travel out of the gears/throttles but I can't figure out these Solo II's. I have it at idle 700rpm but only 2550 at WOT (run out of travel space on the controls). If I jump the idle up to 1000 I get 2650,etc. It's propped to get 3050 at WOT and confirmed by manually pushing on the throttle spring.

How is it I can't get a pic to show up on here?

--JK

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 10th, '08, 18:20

Propellors are made to go forward...so troll in reverse.

Also more reduction in reverse...

If you have to back down on a big fish you really have it made!

Imagine all the faces of the people as you troll past them...

I believe the hurth gears they don't want the prop shaft free spinning without the engine running for prolonged periods. I think this is because the box is not being lubicated unless it's running or is in gear.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 10th, '08, 18:21

This was discussed at length a year or so ago. It's the only downside of the high HP Cummins. When properly propped for maximum performance at the top/cruise end, the low end still moves the boat at a very good clip. Trolling valves solve the problem. The Higher HP Yanmars don't have as much of a slow end problem because they get to their higher HP from the higher RPMs they're made to run at on the top end. Props don't need as much pitch to achieve optimum performance, which works for you on the bottom end especially if you need/want slow trolling capabilities. The Cummins 210's and 250's can troll down acceptably on one engine without trolling valves, but they can't come close to the 30+ kts the 315's can. Walter

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 10th, '08, 18:43

JK-Just as there is a setscrew by which the idle can be adjusted, there is on the opposite end of that lever a governor setscrew that controls the top end. It is covered with white tubing and has a wire and metal seal on it that locks it at it's existing position. If your engine reaches the specs for no-load rpm's at the dock, don't touch it as your throw is correct and your problem is in propping. If you don't reach maximum spec rpm's at full throw, you have to cut the sealing wire, remove the little plastic cover that hides that it really is a setscrew, and adjust to the spec no-load rpms. You don't have to replace it's cover and seal any more. Both my engines were supposed to do 2850 at no load and were set at 2650, which is its WOT at load. A Cummins mechanic showed me how he reset it and I can now add another inch of pitch or more cup as after the adjustment, my present props suddenly turned 2725 at wot instead of 2650 as they used to. They couldn't do that before because the engines were governed not to exceed 2650. Walter

JK · Post by JK » Dec 10th, '08, 19:20

The issue is all in the Solo II controls, there are adjustments are the terminal end as well as a cam type adjustment at the throttle levers. It's the lever end that I can't figure out. When it was first launched it was great, then someone wasn't content getting 2850 WOT on the throttles and wanted to get more...whoever tried to make it better screwed it up. Care to guess who?? I've tried several times and can only get it back to about 2550 WOT by the Solo II's. By the engine throttle it will go to 3050.

--JK

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Dec 10th, '08, 19:34

John,

Call Harry ar R.G. Rollin & he can walk you through the adjustments. 253-588-9978

Br,

Patrick

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 10th, '08, 20:22

jk you have exactlly what i have and the same problem.the engine can only accerate to 7/8 at best. solo II will not allow engine full speed.i have played with them enough and 31.6 cruise is plenty although engine want to go way past if you have a person in companion way unhook after full engine will go another 300 rpm.don`t need it.docking at 6 knt (light on fuel) with the vulcan drives is a little crazy.people are alarm when in unknown marinas trying to be polite attemping to help you dock!!.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 10th, '08, 20:25

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 10th, '08, 20:44

I will repeat myself, the SOLO controls suck.

JK · Post by JK » Dec 10th, '08, 21:12

Bob,

My problem is I do need the extra RPM. 2500 robs me of 100rpms of high cruise and it makes a big difference in speed as you know. Flat calm days I can only get 26knts whereas I could get more with the 3000WOT option. Maybe I do jump up the idle to get a few more on the top end? In the C&D Canal today I was only able to get 25.5knts when 31 was what I use to get before switching to the Solo II's. Chose the Solo II's from seeing them on all the 31 intalls. Too late now to change!

--JK
www.seanile31.com

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 10th, '08, 21:13

splitting hairs as to forward and reverse adjustment i belive in forward .solo 2 only has 23/4" of movement.they look great and are built of high quality stainless and crome but in reality cannot get full thottle no matter what i do.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Dec 10th, '08, 21:32

Wouldn't you consider that a product flaw? Have either of you contacted their customer service people? Your postings and Bruce's comment would surely keep me from ever considering them now. I always thought they looked great, but I'd be spooked now. Translates to bad PR that could be fixed by having their tech people solve it for you. Walter

CaptMarkB · Post by **CaptMarkB** » Dec 10th, '08, 22:41

I had the same in my Egg Harbor, repowered in 1994. The dealer set up the idle at 700 in neutral, which is recommended by Cummins (7-750). I did raise them for a smoother idle. Like walter said, you can drop your idle, but they will tend to "grind" a liitle. Too bad there's no slow idle setting like the new MTU/Detroits have. I'm was told it won't hurt the engine by WESCO marine in Hampton Bays, NY. Bill Stevens has sold, serviced, and installed these for almost 20 years.

Mark

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 10th, '08, 23:26

JK, don't mind if I put my two cents in here, but seems like if you have to "give up" on one end to make up on another, your controls have a throw problem meaning they don't actuate enough one way or the other according to your engine's needs. Rocky.

JK · Post by JK » Dec 10th, '08, 23:36

The actual levers travel plenty but it runs out of cable....if you know what I mean. If there was another inch of travel it would be fine. It worked fine with the original morse controls but adjusting the Solo II's is a royal PITA. At the most fwd position it still physically has about 2" of room to be pushed forward, problem is if you push the lever slips on the knob on the control and they you/I am really messed up. They slipped once and I was only able to get 2000rpms for an entire 4hr ride. It's almost if I could shorten the threads of the cable it would allow further travel on the engine throttle.

--JK

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 10th, '08, 23:59

JK, it sounds like Walter made a good point with a Solo controls technician to at least walk you through adjustments. (And capt. Pat). It sounds almost like you are describing the actual cable being your throw problem. I would think you should have enough internal or moving cable to satisfy the engine's throws needs. If it is the captured/ stationary portion of the cable that is preventing this, the tech should be able to tell you. If I wasn't so far away, I'd come over and look at it! Rocky.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 11th, '08, 06:22

I had one hell of a time getting them to go full range on the throttle pump stops. I called the manufacturer, which was no help at all.

I finaly modified the controls myself to work. The problem I had then was the friction adjustment wouldn't hold the spring on the pump open so I had to install cable brakes.

Controls should not be that difficult to setup,

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 11th, '08, 09:23

Bruce, lets show JK pictures of mods?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 11th, '08, 09:36

i had to put a strong return spring on my engine just to take any slack out of cables so the lever just touches idle stop other wise if i pull back the thottle i would end up making 10 kns. the caqble had just enough slack to hold it off the idle pin.dangerous and annoying.i am using 33c cables with large radius.they move very freely.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 11th, '08, 09:50

I am not familiar with the setup, but I had a similar throw issue when hooking up dual controls that where dual action single lever from Morse. I had enough throw at the cable but when it went into the switch box the little extra play caused problems.

Long story short, I made an adapter to shorten the throw on the throttles and moved tranny linkage closer to the fulcrum which sort of increases the throw. So...if you choked up on the place the linkaged attached to the motors throttle it would give you additional adjustment with the same cable throw. If it's a good amount you may need a spring to offset the additional pressure required as you loose mechanical advantage when choking up.

JK · Post by JK » Dec 11th, '08, 10:08

I will call and see if the company offers any advice. I've had about 4 various people give it a shot and all say "it is what it is" and be heppy with 2550 on the throttles.

--JK

Mikey · Post by **Mikey** » Dec 11th, '08, 10:27

Now we're getting somewhere.
Bruce, I like your solution best if I can fashion some extensions from the exhaust to the hot tub to get warm water. The Bay is getting down in the forties and I don't get in water that cold for anybody.
Walter, Tried to understand your adjustment routine but we must have different injector pumps. I have Nippons and the routine is different.
I installed Kobelt single lever controls and can't get full throttle either. The controls have to proper length and the cables get there but the only way to get full throttle is to manually push the pump lever and hold it. The Kobelts won't do it. However, I still can't slow down enough for the pokey fish. Backing into my thirteen foot wide boathouse can be an adventure and when first putting her in ear I have to remind people to hang on or I'll dump them over the transom
Bumping in and out of gear sounds like a sure way to shorten the life of the trannies, true?
What's the skinny on trolling valves. Why so expensive, other than "Cummins?" Are they installable by a "mechanical genius" shade-tree mechanic? Must the trannies be removed from the boat for the installation?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 11th, '08, 10:27

i call in the past and got a 90year sec. whom never return call twice.do you have the ball bearing cables that are optional from solo ?

joeh · Post by **joeh** » Dec 11th, '08, 11:02

Mikey,

I don't know a ton about my trolling valves other than they work and that they were installed properly. My boat "slainte" was refiitted and by John Patnovic at Worton Creek Marina. I had the trolling valves put on by him as well after I bought it.

He was late getting it to me because he would not return it until the valves were right. Something about it had to be prefect or it would not work right. He had a special cable made or something. Does this sound as smart or clear as Bruce or Pat?

Point is, I would suggest giving him a call and mentioning my boat as a reference for some advice.

They really are a game changer when fishing.

Joe

JK · Post by JK » Dec 11th, '08, 15:19

Bob,

We do have the roller ball type cables. I believe one side is 19' and the other is 23'. We alsoi have cockpit comtrols as well and have the same issue if you try to get WOT with the cockpit controls.

--JK

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 11th, '08, 16:02

I think the suggestion of moving the attachment point down the lever on the engine is the solution. You lose a little mechanical advantage, but it sounds like they are easy enough to operate that it would work. In essence it gives you more throw in the quadrant, but less mechanical advantage.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Dec 11th, '08, 17:49

thank you jk you answer that question.i somehow belive his sales line when i purchase the solo 2 that his cables would work better well you answer that.i have 3 cables on the starboard side and just thottle on port to avoid 180degree turn for starboard gear.

Rocky · Post by **Rocky** » Dec 12th, '08, 00:48

JK, put your foot half way down your gas pedal , and hang on! You've just halved your "throw" to full throttle but also doubled the effort. I tried that today with my truck and Rawleigh is right that would get you full throttle in a hurry on your solos. Rocky.

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