Whos at fault?!

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Mar 21st, '08, 08:51

Coast Guard Auxiliary Accident : You decide..

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jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Mar 21st, '08, 09:08

I thought that the when two vessels in open water under power and showing no restrictions approach each other at 90 degrees, then the vessel approaching from starboard has the right of way (Stand on vessel). If the Give way vessel fails to avoid, then the stand on vessel must do so.

Seems CGA is initially at fault because he takes no action to avoid, perhaps because he was paying attention to the video camera not the water. Then runabout guy seems like a dope, because he was no more aware of the situation, maybe showing off for the folks on that party/cruise boat in the background.

Either way I am glad it wasn't me.

Skipper Dick · Post by **Skipper Dick** » Mar 21st, '08, 09:10

It would appear that the speed boat aproaching from the Coast Guard's Stbd. side had the right of way according to Chapman's Rules of the Road. I didn't hear any horn signals and it looks like neither boat operator saw the other. They were lucky some one didn't get killed on that one.

Some operators don't know the rules of the road and other use it to cover their ass. I had a smaller faster boat running parallel to me off my stbd. side once. He was only about 100 feet away and then suddenly cut to port across my bow. After a few hand signals I finally hailed the idiot and he claimed he had the right of way.

Dick

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Mar 21st, '08, 09:24

Avoid collision at all cost. All rules to nav are to be put aside to avoid collision. Both are wrong.

Capt Dick Dean · Post by **Capt Dick Dean** » Mar 21st, '08, 09:29

You'r right!

STeveZ · Post by **STeveZ** » Mar 21st, '08, 10:33

I am reminded of The Great Gatsby:

Nick: You're a rotten driver, either you ought to be more careful
or you oughtn't to drive at all.

Jordan: I am careful.

Nick: No you're not.

Jordan: Well, other people are.

Nick: What's that got to do with it?

Jordan: They'll keep out of my way, It takes two to make an
accident.

Nick: Suppose you met somebody just as careless as yourself?

Jordan: I hope I never will, I hate careless people. That's why
I like you.

jspiezio · Post by **jspiezio** » Mar 21st, '08, 10:59

Brewster Minton wrote:Avoid collision at all cost. All rules to nav are to be put aside to avoid collision. Both are wrong.

Absolutely right, I should have made that clearer.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Mar 21st, '08, 11:15

Rules of the road are great, but so are red lights and people don't pay much attention to those either.

COMMON SENSE should prevail. In this case it didn't.

randall · Post by **randall** » Mar 21st, '08, 12:54

i think the CG is totally at fault for more than one reason. forgetting that the speedboat had right of way (and that the driver is an idiot) he , being the lubber that he is didnt even see the CG boat . the CG boat saw him and had ample time to slow , turn , and avoid easily. WHY he didnt do that is a mystery. next , the CG boat (you would assume) is captained by some one who knows what he's doing...maybe not . brewster is right ..the rule that supercedes all rules is to avoid collision at all costs

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 21st, '08, 13:05

Plain, pure, and simple...

The small boat had the right of way. Period.

The CG AUX captain was:

1. In the wrong. Period.
2. Couldn't have become a CG AUX without knowing the rules of the road, among all of the other requirements constraining licensed capains.
3. Stupid. Period.
4. Intentionally caused the accident.

Sure, the small boat pilot, (highly doubtful that he had any kind of formal boat handling training), was somewhat at fault by not paying better attention. He learned a good lesson the hard way...

The CG AUX bozo is now a card carrying member of Joseph Hazelwood Club. But because he, for all practical purposes, deliberately hit the small boat so should be nominated the current Club President. Period.

As a result of his actions & consequences, he should be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law. Absolutely no excuse for that collision to have happened. That was not an accident, it was a intentional ramming. Period.

His only reasoning could be that he was preventing the small boat from running over a swimmer. Even if the small boat had a dead bead on a person in the water, the CG AUX didn't have the authority to intervene by putting other lives at risk. Period

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Mar 21st, '08, 13:06

Coast Guard Auxialliary.... That says it all in a nutshell. Therefore I blame the speedboater. All auxilliary vessels are piloted by weekend warrior wannabe Coasties. They are to be avoided at all costs. Since the speedboater didn't see the CGA, he wasn't able to avoid them.

Seriously, they are both to blame as one wasn't paying attenetion to his surroundings (as claimed by the speedboater), and the other totally ignored what he was observing (as evidenced by the fact that he was hailing and viewing the speedboat) and took no evasive action whatsoever. However, I would tend to put more blame on the CGA as he was the give way vessel and had plenty of time and opportunity to make adjustments.

Tommy · Post by **Tommy** » Mar 21st, '08, 13:31

C'mon Patrick, don't be so wishy-washy, how do you really feel? I agree you and the others: with intersecting vessels (as opposed to overtaking), the vessel to starboard is the stand-on vessel. It appears that the CGA operator viewed his CGA "position" as giving him authority that trumped the rules of the road, and that his 'hailing' actions superceded his give-way status. Sort of like the policeman that blows through a red light just because his lights and siren are activated.....he is still at fault if there is a collision.

With that said, I also agree that they are both idiots.....the stand-on operator for not maintaining a proper watch, and the give-way (CGA) operator for seeing the imminent collision and taking no evasive action to avoid same.

I'd bet my Bertram that 95% (or better) of the regulars on this Board operate their boats with the assumption that every other boater they encounter is an idiot. If I don't recognize another boater as someone I know and trust, then I automatically assume that:

1. They don't know (or don't care about) the rules of the road;

2. If they know the rules, they may not be paying attention;

3. If they're paying attention, they may be under the influence.

In other words, if I am involved in a collision with another vessel, then I will hold myself at fault, because I'm counting on them doing something wrong. (With the exception of the time a boat hit me when I was at anchor, and then I blamed myself for anchoring in close proximity to a bunch of idiots.)

Tommy

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Mar 21st, '08, 13:45

By the rule book, AVOID COLLISION @ ALL COST! no matter who the idiot was. If you have a big enough gun, shoot the idiot after you clear him. Look like a coot duck to me! so I shot him!

DQ

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mar 21st, '08, 15:26

Simple, CGA was trying to stop the boat from entering area. CGA rammed him for lack of a better term. There are stupid boaters that may not be aware of their surroundings and then there deliberate acts such as the one caught on camera. People do not hear sirens loud halers while running in a boat. Captain of that CGA vessel is a jackass based on the video, but who knows, videos can be misleading.

randall · Post by **randall** » Mar 21st, '08, 15:46

the only excuse would be if he was on course to run over someone in the water was hailed and didnt stop....failing that there are many better ways to handle the situation.

after my dad died i was stuck in the city for a long time...one night i was just walking when i saw an aux police car come to a very sudden stop after faking a yellow light. this cabbie behind them just taps em.....you would have thought that he robbed a bank...spread eagle on the ground. i and a few other bystanders went over to complain and let them know we were watching.........so they started to threaten us......i told em to call some "real" cops . they threw the guy in the back of their car and sped away.....to much authority....and the CG aux is often the same..BTW....pretty nice boat for the aux

CMP · Post by **CMP** » Mar 21st, '08, 16:20

I'm with the folks who blamed the Aux nitwits on this one. They had the stand-on vessel in sight all the way, yet took no action to avoid despite the complete lack of action on the smaller boat's part. As an aside, I have NEVER liked or had an inkling of respect for these fools with their plastic badges. They tend to be pier queens with little real water experience. The really screwed the pooch on this one...

CMP

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Mar 21st, '08, 16:27

Also known as a social group for the retired. No offense to those that are retired and are in social groups of course.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 21st, '08, 17:21

All I can say is thank God the Aux Coast Guard was there to save those two guys...imagine if they weren't? Someone should give them an award or something

On a serious note, thats the biggest Aux Blunder I have seen, and I have seen quite a few. I can almost understand one idiot being overly stupid, but there seemed to be several others on the boat that should have had there eyes peeled to the water and aware of that speedboater, you would think one of the bunch would have spoke up or took action. I was originally thinking the Aux Captain was having a bad day, collision and all with a news crew and spectators on a nearby party boat. But it may actually be a real lucky day for him, cause he easliy could have killed those guys and that would have been on tape. If he did kill them isn't it negligent homicide or something.

Idiots...

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Mar 21st, '08, 18:13

If he did kill them isn't it negligent homicide or something.

Negligent homicide would be if he clearly wasn't aware of his actions, such as getting into a typical accident or DWI where death of another party occurs. In this case, if he had of killed someone on the small boat, the charge could easily have been 2nd or third degree murder.

Well, let's see... I ain't a prosecuting attorney, or any other kind of legal beagle for that matter, but my list would contain at least these two items:

1. Aggrivated assault with a deadly weapon (He was in control of a fast moving projectile capable of extreme injury or death).

2. Reckless endangerment of his crew and passengers.

Carl, you're right about the other idiots onboard the CGA vessel. You can bet you sweet ass that had I have been onboard he'd have lost control of the helm rather forceably before the incident could have culminated.

While not under extreme conditions like in this case, I HAVE forceably taken control of a vessel on two occassions. Bruce knows the owner I refer to & of at least one of the incidents... One incident was a crossing situation where the owner did have the right of way and was just bull headed enough to press the issue at 28 kts. I said my piece, he said his & kept pressing on, so I just slammed the throttles closed & kept my hand on them. He looked at me with disdain, & then said in resignation, "You're right."

Br,

Patrick

randall · Post by **randall** » Mar 21st, '08, 18:40

patrick,i can picture it no problem

steve miller · Post by **steve miller** » Mar 23rd, '08, 10:23

I'm in complete agreement that the C.G.A. was in the wrong. The vessel operator must yield BEFORE a collision can occur. But don't you think the speedboat guy deserves some kind of runner-up mention? for being so clueless that he allowed a marked Coastie vessel to hit him? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm always on the lookout for the red stripe guys (used to be one myself)! Do you think the C.G.A. might have had those blue lights flashing? Hmmmm? If the C.G.A. guy takes $sshole of the year, speedboat guy comes in a close second in my book.

When I am operating a boat I always assume, unless I know better, that other boat's captains do not operate their boats professionally. And so must be accounted for as an unknown quantity and therefore potentially dangerous. In my years as a charter captain I have seen weekend guys do the DAMNEDEST things. Running a twenty foot runabout offshore in the fog at 30 kts. With no radar. Ignoring dive flags. Running over submerged rocks that are marked by bouys. Cutting fishing lines by running their boat directly behind the transoms of those who are trolling. Driving their vessel to within ten feet of my boat while I am at anchor, bass chunking. When I draw this to their attention, they almost invariably bitch me out, saying something like "it's not your ocean, you know!" or some such.

So, watching the video, it occurs to me that the wrongness is by degree. The C.G.A. guy was only marginally worse than the speedboat guy. My $.02

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Mar 23rd, '08, 14:18

Steve,

to the best of my knowledge, CGA boats are personal vessels with no markings on the hull whatsoever. They may however, display a banner that says CGA on it and definitely will fly a CGA flag from some location. The CG boat in the video was probably not the same boat as the CGA vessel that had the film crew.

nic · Post by **nic** » Mar 24th, '08, 03:59

CGA Skipper all the way. Deliberate ramming. Hailing "Skipper of the speedboat" is not a recognized maritime signal; failed to avoid a collision; failed to alter course for a vessel having the right of way. Throw the book at him.

Other guy failed to maintain a proper watch, but for all we know was looking to starboard, sensing danger, to see who was calling him.

We have the same here, avoid them at all costs. Notorious for damaging your boat if you are ever unlucky enough to be towed by them. A danger unto themselves, let alone others.

My $2.00 worth.

Nic

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Mar 24th, '08, 09:35

Steve,
Marginally worse, I don't think so.
Lets put aside the whole "right of way issue" The CGA boat SAW the speedboater and did not do anything to avoid the collision. That reason alone puts the two in a totaly different league, it is no longer an accident, he pretty much intentionally hit that boat in my mind.

The CGA could have veered off course, brought throttles back a tad and allow speedboater to pass in front, hit the horn, but no what did he do...tried to hail the guy on the radio.

I will agree the speedboater had some issues, yeah he missed the CGA boat, whether it was a CG cutter or private boat he didn't see it, he too was a moron, but a whole lot better then seeing a likely collision and having the ability to avoid it and do nothing. I too have been a Major Moron at the wheel and lucky enough to have a prudent skipper alter his course to avoid a collision. Once I was BS'ing while trolling, the other time I was trolling shorthanded. I was stupid, completetly wrong and believe I learned from my mistakes. I have also been on the other end and avoided my fair share as well.

steve miller · Post by **steve miller** » Mar 24th, '08, 22:14

Sim & all,
I agree completely that the auxiliary guy was in the wrong, and said as much. But that doesn't absolve the speedboat guy. Right of way aside, isn't he also responsible for the safe passage of his vessel? The rules say you must always maintain a lookout. I don't think the speedboat guy's conduct qualifies.

The C.G.A guy was just so much more obviously a moron. Doesn't mean the speedboat captain was absolved of his responsibility to maintain safe navigation. So I still say his(speedboat's) idiocy was only marginally worse. It was probably only dumb "luck" that the C.G.A. boat struck him and not the other way around. To me, not even seeing a vessel bearing down on you in broad daylight is pretty bad. BOTH vessels have the same responsibility to avoid collision.

steve miller · Post by **steve miller** » Mar 24th, '08, 22:22

I think Brewster got it right when he said "all rules are to be put aside to avoid collision. Both are wrong".

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