I had a leaky port rudder when Alchemy came out this past fall, and got it loosened up on Monday.
For those more experienced, do I need to remove the rudder to repack complete? My gut tells me that it is most important to clean all the old stuff out and then I can repack while all the stuff is still in place. Clearly it takes on a new dimension if I need to drop the rudders...
I would rather not.
Also found a bolt that was severely corroded due to electrolysis on the swim platform, so I will be replacing all of them as well, and re-bonding!
I really missed puttering, and will be back to it as soon as I can!
Dug
Replacing rudder packing
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
-
CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Jun 7th, '06, 14:25
- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
Dug,
Dropping the rudders isn't that big of a deal & can be a good maintenance routine any way. They don't really need to come completely out of the boat, just down far enough to fully remove the cap nut, which is where your packing is. But then if you're already at this point, there's no real advantage in not removing them fully. It also makes removing the old packing a very simple task without special tools, skinned knuckles, & trying to work hunched down in a blind hole.
Remove the cross bolt that pinches the tiller arm onto the shaft & drive a small wedge to spread the collar by a fraction of an inch. Loosen the nuts on the locking collar. Loosen the hex set screws on the inner race of the upper bearing.
Now where you might run into some difficulty is if the inner race & the shaft have corroded together, which in that case will take some penetrating oil & hammering. Keep in mind that direct hammer blows to the top of the shaft will mushroom it.
A simple tool to act as a buffer between the shaft & hammer is to place three or four quarters on top of the shaft, slip on a 1 1/2" iron pipe cap over the quarts & shaft, and bang away to your heart's content. The quarters get trashed rather than the shaft.
If the corrosion is really bad, it might take a few days of soaking with the penetrating oil & even some heat to get it to soak down.
Use a 3 lb machinist sledge, save your little hammers for drivin' nails...
If your shaft is still tight after it's freed up from the inner race, then you likely have an abundance of calcinated marine growth above the rudder port. Pack some wax or clay around the bottom of the shaft to seal shaft & port. Pour some muriatic acid into the rudder port tube to disolve the growth
Once you have the shaft freed from the bearing, you'll not only be able to change the packing but also clean up the sections of the shaft that bear on your rudder port, packing material, & bearing. When re-assembling, use a "Never Seize" compound both at the rudder port & the upper bearing so that future removals will be a lot easier. This is a good time to replace the upper bearings if they are getting ratty.
Br,
Patrick
Dropping the rudders isn't that big of a deal & can be a good maintenance routine any way. They don't really need to come completely out of the boat, just down far enough to fully remove the cap nut, which is where your packing is. But then if you're already at this point, there's no real advantage in not removing them fully. It also makes removing the old packing a very simple task without special tools, skinned knuckles, & trying to work hunched down in a blind hole.
Remove the cross bolt that pinches the tiller arm onto the shaft & drive a small wedge to spread the collar by a fraction of an inch. Loosen the nuts on the locking collar. Loosen the hex set screws on the inner race of the upper bearing.
Now where you might run into some difficulty is if the inner race & the shaft have corroded together, which in that case will take some penetrating oil & hammering. Keep in mind that direct hammer blows to the top of the shaft will mushroom it.
A simple tool to act as a buffer between the shaft & hammer is to place three or four quarters on top of the shaft, slip on a 1 1/2" iron pipe cap over the quarts & shaft, and bang away to your heart's content. The quarters get trashed rather than the shaft.
If the corrosion is really bad, it might take a few days of soaking with the penetrating oil & even some heat to get it to soak down.
Use a 3 lb machinist sledge, save your little hammers for drivin' nails...
If your shaft is still tight after it's freed up from the inner race, then you likely have an abundance of calcinated marine growth above the rudder port. Pack some wax or clay around the bottom of the shaft to seal shaft & port. Pour some muriatic acid into the rudder port tube to disolve the growth
Once you have the shaft freed from the bearing, you'll not only be able to change the packing but also clean up the sections of the shaft that bear on your rudder port, packing material, & bearing. When re-assembling, use a "Never Seize" compound both at the rudder port & the upper bearing so that future removals will be a lot easier. This is a good time to replace the upper bearings if they are getting ratty.
Br,
Patrick
Br,
Patrick
Molon labe
Patrick
Molon labe
-
Harry Babb
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2354
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:45
- Location: Fairhope Al
- Contact:
Hey guys I want to tell you something that a friend did to solve his rudder packing leaking issues.
I have not tried this YET so be informed that what I am telling you will be third hand information
My buddy kept repacking his rudders and in a short time they would be leaking...........he tightened the gland enough to stop the leaks then......well I am sure that you know the drill from here
He went to a Rubber and Gasket shop and purchased rubber or neoprene doughnuts........the OD equal to the diameter of the packing box and the ID equal to the rudder post diameter 1/4" thick. He filled the packing box with these doughnuts installed and tightened the packing gland........he claims the problem is solved........ NO MO LEAKS
You can bet..........I'll give it a try
When the lower rudder bearing area becomes excessively worn the rudder can vibrate and beat the packing loose in the gland. My guess that the rubber is more forgiving than the packing (which gets compressed) and possibly even dampens the vibration.
Harry
I have not tried this YET so be informed that what I am telling you will be third hand information
My buddy kept repacking his rudders and in a short time they would be leaking...........he tightened the gland enough to stop the leaks then......well I am sure that you know the drill from here
He went to a Rubber and Gasket shop and purchased rubber or neoprene doughnuts........the OD equal to the diameter of the packing box and the ID equal to the rudder post diameter 1/4" thick. He filled the packing box with these doughnuts installed and tightened the packing gland........he claims the problem is solved........ NO MO LEAKS
You can bet..........I'll give it a try
When the lower rudder bearing area becomes excessively worn the rudder can vibrate and beat the packing loose in the gland. My guess that the rubber is more forgiving than the packing (which gets compressed) and possibly even dampens the vibration.
Harry
hb
My opinion would be to not do it with rubber cause rubber can get hard and break up with age. your friend may have been using too small a diameter packing. I have had great results with the teflon grease from west marine and liberally apply it between each piece of packing on the rudders and propshafts.
Kill Em All ......Let God Sort Em Out
Harry Babb wrote:When the lower rudder bearing area becomes excessively worn the rudder can vibrate and beat the packing loose in the gland.
That may be my problem. No amount of careful re-packing seems to stop them from leaking. I can easily stop them from leaking, until one boat ride, after which they will bleed water again every time, unless I re-tighten more. The process resets until there is no room left to tighten. One is worse than the other, but they both do it.
Generally I have been waiting to re-tighten until the leaks get really bad, to prolong the period between the re-packing jobs. My rudder glands seem to eat packing. I have yet to remove the rudders for inspection but am sure that it is warranted. In the meantime, I live with two slow leaks.
Maybe an alternative explanation is that the rudder shafts corrode and foul, to the point that they tear up the packing as they turn with use ?
-
Harry Babb
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2354
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:45
- Location: Fairhope Al
- Contact:
Sean
I will be dropping my rudders soon and making another attempt at removing the rudder boxes (correct name ????).............I tried to take one of them out a couple of years ago and gave up but now I have a much bigger hammer LOL
I do know that my rudder stuffing boxes leak and when you shake the rudder side to side or fore to aft you can see a LOT of play in the bearing area.
I have the same problem as Dug stated. My plan is to (assuming I can get the rudder box out with out destroyin it) bore the bearing area out to a cleanup diameter then make a oversize rudder post giving the bearing area .005" to .008" of clearance. My guess right now is that the Rudder post/rudder box are worn to .030"/.040" (or more) clearance
If you guys have majic method of removing the rudder box from the hull I could sure use some advice................
Dug
Its in the HIGH TEENS here tonight and high in the 40's tomorrow......Charlie says that shirt sleeve weather to him but there will not be any "Puttering" going on here for a while.........we found ourselves in a mad rush this afternoon running around checking anitfreeze in trucks tractors and boats.
Harry
I will be dropping my rudders soon and making another attempt at removing the rudder boxes (correct name ????).............I tried to take one of them out a couple of years ago and gave up but now I have a much bigger hammer LOL
I do know that my rudder stuffing boxes leak and when you shake the rudder side to side or fore to aft you can see a LOT of play in the bearing area.
I have the same problem as Dug stated. My plan is to (assuming I can get the rudder box out with out destroyin it) bore the bearing area out to a cleanup diameter then make a oversize rudder post giving the bearing area .005" to .008" of clearance. My guess right now is that the Rudder post/rudder box are worn to .030"/.040" (or more) clearance
If you guys have majic method of removing the rudder box from the hull I could sure use some advice................
Dug
Its in the HIGH TEENS here tonight and high in the 40's tomorrow......Charlie says that shirt sleeve weather to him but there will not be any "Puttering" going on here for a while.........we found ourselves in a mad rush this afternoon running around checking anitfreeze in trucks tractors and boats.
Harry
hb
-
CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Jun 7th, '06, 14:25
- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
Rod,I gotta bite here - why quarters and not washers?
Actually, I use a small billet of bronze cut from an old rudder shaft in the cap but I figured that not many folks would have access to some of the junk that I, Harry, or Bruce might have laying around, so had to come up with something that just about everyone would probably have on hand....
Two additional points: If your rudder port is worn, it can be removed, bored oversize and re-sleeved with bearing bronze. If the rudder shafts are worn at the rudder port, they can be TIG welded up & then re-turned on a lathe, but it might be better to just replace, especially if they're the small originals.
Never use Teflon packing for the rudder shafts... Teflon packing requires a full rotational high speed force to seat in. Since the rudder shafts only rotate about 45º, the packing will never seat properly.
Harry,If you guys have majic method of removing the rudder box from the hull I could sure use some advice
Once the 4 bolts are out the rest is held with 5200. Use a propane torch to heat the bronze until it's too hot to touch. The 5200 will let go around 200º F -- 200º won't hurt the fiberglass for the short duration that will be needed to drop the ports.
Br,
Patrick
Br,
Patrick
Molon labe
Patrick
Molon labe
-
Pete Fallon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1318
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 23:10
- Location: Stuart Fl. and Salem, Ma.
Harry& Dug,
My 1961 express rudder packing never gave me any problems, regular flax packing, no upper bearings, just hex nut threaded to the top of the rudder tube, inverted U shaped stainless upper support flange bolted to rudder table supports.
On the bottom where rudder post passes thru the tube flange is a Delrin bushing,( bushing is about 2" long, 1/4" thick with a 3/8" flange where it meets the upper end of the spade rudder) slips over the 1" rudder post, acts as a spacer. I've had that machined twice in 29 years. Over the years the rudder tube can become elongated from wear. The bushing was there when I bought the boat in 1978 with original large rudders from Bertram.
It looks like the bushing was original equipment from Bertram, I've surveyed over 20 31's in the past 6 years, and only seen 4 intact. Something to look for if your having a lot of play in this area.
My 1961 express rudder packing never gave me any problems, regular flax packing, no upper bearings, just hex nut threaded to the top of the rudder tube, inverted U shaped stainless upper support flange bolted to rudder table supports.
On the bottom where rudder post passes thru the tube flange is a Delrin bushing,( bushing is about 2" long, 1/4" thick with a 3/8" flange where it meets the upper end of the spade rudder) slips over the 1" rudder post, acts as a spacer. I've had that machined twice in 29 years. Over the years the rudder tube can become elongated from wear. The bushing was there when I bought the boat in 1978 with original large rudders from Bertram.
It looks like the bushing was original equipment from Bertram, I've surveyed over 20 31's in the past 6 years, and only seen 4 intact. Something to look for if your having a lot of play in this area.
-
Harry Babb
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2354
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:45
- Location: Fairhope Al
- Contact:
-
Tony Meola
- Senior Member
- Posts: 7036
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 21:24
- Location: Hillsdale, New Jersey
- Contact:
Harry
I just pulled my Rudder Ports out about a month ago. I had to cut the nuts off the bolts then I knocked the bolts out. I tapped a putty knife blade between the bronze flange and the hull. Worked my around it then I took a board layed it on top and hit it with a 3lb hammer. Popped right out. Just make sure no one is trying to help you by looking up from the bottom. It almost hit my wife when it popped out. Tony Meola
I just pulled my Rudder Ports out about a month ago. I had to cut the nuts off the bolts then I knocked the bolts out. I tapped a putty knife blade between the bronze flange and the hull. Worked my around it then I took a board layed it on top and hit it with a 3lb hammer. Popped right out. Just make sure no one is trying to help you by looking up from the bottom. It almost hit my wife when it popped out. Tony Meola
Dug-
My experience;
Dropped both of mine out last year. Had to beat the ever living piss out of them. Shattetred several improvised wood "interposers" I made until I switched to oak. 3 lb pound...heck I used a 5lb hammer, and put a few beers worth of sweat on. Not much swing room, so not as brutal as it sounds. Wish I had heard about the quarter trick. Having them out and in the driveway it was much easier to clean up the shafts, and stip the entire rudder down. The calcifcation was most likly the culprit an mentioned by Capt. Pat, but to be honest, I think I would have been afraid to dump muriatic acid on my shafts. Used plenty of PB blaster though.
If I had it to do it over...I would but the new rudders offerd by Capt Pat. Problem was that by the time I was doing mine, I was already way over budget,
Out of shear ignorance and lack of choices at my local marine shop, I am using the teflon impregnated flax packing. Very minor drip is occuring, and the only reason I can tell is by the discoloration of my once spotless packing nut, but I havn't really stood un the nuts either. Wish I had heard about the teflon.... Prior to doing the job I had a proverbial hemorage, so while I might have used the wrong packing, it is 100% improved.
I used a teflon grease on the shafts rationalizing it may be more waterproof than never seize. (Had both in my hand at the time as i was pondering the situation) Not sure if this is true. Got this BelRay saltwater proof grease from my motorcycle racing days sitting on my work bench that looks like it would work well....almost like CV joint grease, but did not try it, yet I have to think it would probably work well. I think finding somthing to stand up to the water is the key.
The worst part is the removal
My experience;
Dropped both of mine out last year. Had to beat the ever living piss out of them. Shattetred several improvised wood "interposers" I made until I switched to oak. 3 lb pound...heck I used a 5lb hammer, and put a few beers worth of sweat on. Not much swing room, so not as brutal as it sounds. Wish I had heard about the quarter trick. Having them out and in the driveway it was much easier to clean up the shafts, and stip the entire rudder down. The calcifcation was most likly the culprit an mentioned by Capt. Pat, but to be honest, I think I would have been afraid to dump muriatic acid on my shafts. Used plenty of PB blaster though.
If I had it to do it over...I would but the new rudders offerd by Capt Pat. Problem was that by the time I was doing mine, I was already way over budget,
Out of shear ignorance and lack of choices at my local marine shop, I am using the teflon impregnated flax packing. Very minor drip is occuring, and the only reason I can tell is by the discoloration of my once spotless packing nut, but I havn't really stood un the nuts either. Wish I had heard about the teflon.... Prior to doing the job I had a proverbial hemorage, so while I might have used the wrong packing, it is 100% improved.
I used a teflon grease on the shafts rationalizing it may be more waterproof than never seize. (Had both in my hand at the time as i was pondering the situation) Not sure if this is true. Got this BelRay saltwater proof grease from my motorcycle racing days sitting on my work bench that looks like it would work well....almost like CV joint grease, but did not try it, yet I have to think it would probably work well. I think finding somthing to stand up to the water is the key.
The worst part is the removal
Giff
I recently repacked the rudder shafts in my 28. One I dropped and replaced the seized rudder bearing, the other I repacked in place. If the bearings are old the set screws may be seized and stripped. I removed the inplace packing with a nail [I bent a 1/4" right angle at the point of a 10D nail then really sharpened it on a grinder]. I'm sure you can buy a tool but this worked great / reel easy.
what good is a boat if you cant spend all your money and time you dont have working on it.
Got it done today with a bit of patience, a couple dental style picks, and a newly acquired mechanics mirror.
All set and ready. Now to remount the swim platform with new hardware and re-bond that. For sure!
Going for a run, take a shower, head home and sit and wait for the snow. they say up to a foot tonight into tomorrow!
Dug
All set and ready. Now to remount the swim platform with new hardware and re-bond that. For sure!
Going for a run, take a shower, head home and sit and wait for the snow. they say up to a foot tonight into tomorrow!
Dug
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 72 guests