Congressman has Ethanol Problem on his boat.

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 27th, '06, 18:01

The latest issue of Boat US has a story about a Congressman from Arizona has discovered a leaky fuel tank and screwed up engines on his Bertram. Seems he wasn't aware of Ethanol's inherent problems, but certainly is now! Halelluja! They're recommening we all write our representatives and Senators. Hope that Wall Street Journal article didn't get squelched. Walter

Dave Kosh R.I.P. · Post by **Dave Kosh R.I.P.** » Aug 28th, '06, 11:57

How convenient. Now maybe he can suggest the right thing to the right people. Dave K

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 28th, '06, 12:09

I actually sent that congressman an email a few months ago but never heard anything back from him.

I cringe everytime boat useless writes another article because it just adds fuel to the all gas Bertrams are floating time-bomb theories. This most recent article is one of the worst yet.

In it they quote Lee Dana (whom I spoke with back in April/May) and how Bertram used the same resin from 1961-1995. Their conclusion (of course) is that we're all screwed. What they don't tell you is that some of the tanks are gel-coated on the inside and some aren't. They also fail to mention that some boats have had issues right away while the exact same boat has used the fuel for 2-3 years without issue.

I spoke with a guy from a boat financing company a few days ago who proceeded to tell me how I was screwed because I have a gas powered Bertram. At first it didn't really bother me as I'm sure most of you hear it as often as I do. What really bothered me was when he told me that an insurance company called him to see what he knew about the issue. I stopped him dead in his tracks and asked him what he thought he knew and then proceeded to educate him. This is getting scary.

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Aug 28th, '06, 12:58

I dont want to be negative,but to think that big oil or the gov are going to change what their going and are doing is insane. Safety is not going to change the gov or they would fix the 747s with fuel tank problems that caused flight 800 to blow up off LI. They have done nothing so far. I think the only solution is to go deisel or change tanks and prepare for lots of water in the gas and all the other problems that come with the new gas. I know I sound like a AS***** but

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Aug 28th, '06, 13:33

Brewster-There has never been a 747 "tank explosion" on that aircraft both before and/or after that incident. I had been involved with the commercial airline business for over 40 years before retiring, and the 747 was and still is deemed the safest aircraft ever built. Boeing took the hit on that explosion at the behest of the US Government. That explosion was a terrorist act witnessed by more than 100 Long Island residents who saw the rocket trail to the aircraft that night. Not loonies, as some were commercial, air force and naval pilots who knew what rocket trails look like. Fear of panic by the flying public and lack of anyone taking credit for it has kept it quiet. The freedom of information act MIGHT expose it for what it was someday, but that diagnosis borders on impossible by those who know commercial aircraft.
Will they do anything about Ethanol? Not until an important person's kid gets killed from an explosion or failed engine while running an inlet, or an envronmentalist finds that it's doing something really bad. Ethanol is a payoff to the farm lobby and ADM and will prove to be a consumer disaster. If we stay quiet about it, we deserve what we get. I, for one will not. Walter

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 28th, '06, 14:01

about flight 800......a life long friend of mine and his uncle were sitting on a beachfront deck in westhampton looking at the ocean and saw the rocket (or whatever) ascend and hit the plane........im enjoying my expensive ethanol free summer.......next question....do the marinas in conneticut have ethanol in the gas?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 28th, '06, 14:39

My .02.

I lost a bundle of money and time because of the Ethanol mix. If I can rattle a few branchs or make some waves, sure I am in for it.

However I do not expect anything to really come from it, we are only a few people yelling while the majority of people don't really give a dam.

The short story is:

- Keep the original tank and keep an eye on it for leakage. Also keep an ear out for the telltale engine problems relaled to ethanol.

OR

-Change the tank and keep an eye out for tank leakage.

Yep, we now have to check our tanks for leakage just like many other boaters do.

As far as somone getting killed because of ethanol, I think we have all been warned and it is now our problem to deal with it.

As to all the other problems related to ethanol, I think it will play its course following along the money trail.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Aug 28th, '06, 15:08

I just read this last night and hope it brings some type of change to the ethanol requirement in diesel fuel.

As has been mentioned before, it would be easy to simply not put it in deliveries to Marinas since it mixed at the time it is loaded in trucks for distribution.

Clearly the rug is being pulled from under the marine industry. All gas boats are affected by ethanol, not just a few old Bert's and Hatt's. All boats will be affected by the reduced efficiency of the fuel. I've seen on some other forums where Crusader and Merc are not honoring warranties where "inferior fuels" were determined to be the cause of the damage.

Iâ€™m going to write my local & state politicians expressing concern over the issues. I donâ€™t know the numbers but boaters and fishermen are an important source of income for many local economies and businesses. Itâ€™s an election year after all.

br,
JohnD

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 28th, '06, 15:14

I don't think its as easy as not including ethanol in gas destined for marinas as ethanol is used as an octane booster. If ethanol were not added, what octane level would we be getting? We already know they won't/can't use MBTE as an octane booster so what else coud they use?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 28th, '06, 15:40

Safety is not going to change the gov or they would fix the 747s with fuel tank problems that caused flight 800 to blow up off LI.

Shoulder fired missle. The launch tube WAS found in N.J.

JetA is Kerosene.
Kerosene is NOT like gasoline: it is a lubricant, not corrosive, not volatile, and extremely stable in storage. The specific gravity of kerosene is about 0.8, and its ignition point is more than 104 F. If you throw a match into a pool of kerosene it will put out the match. You can hold a match right up to the edge of a teaspoon half full of kerosene and it will not ignite.

***********************************
Don't under estimate the power of a politician who experiences a situation.

In Florida years ago they instituted vehicle inspections cause one of the state politicians was hit by a car with bad brakes. They had been trying to get passed without success before that.
Thank God they did away with it again.

Example two is Carolyn McCarthy for you Lung Islanders.
After her husband and son were shot on a subway, she campained and won based on the soccer mom theory that if we get rid of all guns, we'll all be much safer.
Unfortunatly she, like all gun grabbers don't get it.

But people like those can make a difference beit right or in the above cases WRONG.

Contact this senator and give him your support as boat owers and tell his office that you are available to help fight this problem.

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 28th, '06, 15:56

Bruce,

I did try and contact him back in June but he never responded.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Aug 28th, '06, 16:22

The oil companies will not be required to use ethanol as an oxigenate in their fuel after this fall. They will still have to meat EPA pollution standards, though, so they have to use something, and as we all know MTBE is mostly out.
So ethanol works to meet emission standards AND it gets a tax break for the oil companies, but it has associated with its use all these PIA problems for consumers and oil companies.
As I understand it, what works better and can replace either ethanol or MTBE is ETBE which is actually made from ethanol. If the politicians adjust the language of the tax break to include any ethanol that was used to make ETBE before it got added to the gas, it might be a win all around.

And I am surprised you guys didn't know that flight 800 was in closed airspace at the time of the incident. The reason for closing the airspace? The US Navy was conducting missile training exercises off the south shore of L.I. At least that's how I heard it.
And while we are on the subject of fuel tank issues, we all know that liquid fuel doesn't explode, only vapor. Don't you suppose that the tank might have been pretty much full in that 747 since it had just taken off for Europe?

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Aug 28th, '06, 16:46

The center fuel tank (under the cabin) on 800 was empty. The explosion was caused by frayed wiring in the center tank fuel level sensor sparking and igniting the vapor. At altitude (low pressure) JP4 vapor becomes explosive. I read the NTSB report years ago.

You guys stick to boats and leave the conspiracy theories to me & Lee Harvey.......

UV

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 28th, '06, 17:00

Your going by the theory that the NTSB report was truthful and correct.
And if they based their report on JP-4 then no wonder.

JP-4 is the military equivalent of Jet B with the addition of corrosion inhibitor and anti-icing additives.

Jet B is a distillate covering the naphtha and kerosine fractions (jet A). It can be used as an alternative to Jet A-1 but because it is more difficult to handle (higher flammability), there is only significant demand in very cold climates where its better cold weather performance is important.

All much different than Jet A the fuel used on the majority of transportation aircraft.

Sorry UV, but on this one I have direct knowlege and will respectfully disagree.

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 28th, '06, 18:54

with bruce on this one.....double eye witness account from responsible folks ive known for decades.....didnt say they thought they saw it....said they....and lots of others on a summer night at the beach.....saw it......so UV...whats your theory on JFK?

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Aug 28th, '06, 19:30

Jackie did it so she could marry Onassis and have a bigger boat.

On the 800 crash and an outside force, missile, etc, I remain a skeptic since it was a public event, not some test at Area 51. My considerable experience with "The Government" teaches that a few people can keep their mouths shut, but not a crowd. If it was a missile, either a terrorist or the Navy, the number of people who would have known, both in law enforcement and the military would have been too large for it to have been kept a secret. Plus, hordes of lawyers were poring over every detail, and we all know they can't keep a secret for five minutes when money is in the air.

Anyway, go read the NTSB report before you call it a hoax. It's on the NTSB site.

UV

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 28th, '06, 19:44

UV....i know you now into picnic boats so with mikes help i have posted two "idea" boats for you to look at...what you think....see thread.....interesting boat

In Memory of Vicroy · Post by **In Memory of Vicroy** » Aug 28th, '06, 20:41

The TWA 800 NTSB report is on www.ntsb.gov under Aviation and "recent" accident reports. They are in chron descending order and this was on July 17, 1996. The report is NTSB AAR-00/03.

Look at the pdf version and they went thru every imaginable scenario from bombs, to missiles, to lasers, to death rays, etc. Witness interviews of sightings of missile trails, etc. It is probably the most exhaustive study ever done on an air crash. Facinating reading. If its a hoax, its a damn good one with about 10,000 conspirators participating.

UV

Brewster Minton · Post by **Brewster Minton** » Aug 29th, '06, 08:02

Thanks UV for the backup.Walter,if they cover up the plane crash the gas problems should be easy for big brother to cover up. I sure did not intend to get you guys all worked up. Relax guys and take a ride on your boats. Thier the best boats ever built!

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 29th, '06, 09:53

brewster.....no problem....this remains the only message board i regularly visit where folks can disagree and remain civil........says volumes about the kind of people that own bertrams

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 29th, '06, 13:10

Respect for one another here is paramount and it shows.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 29th, '06, 14:51

Respect for one another is fine.. as long as everyone agrees with me!

I was for over 20 years a sailboater.. the night after the crash I was delivering a sailboat from Mystic CT to Annapolis MD. Going down LI Sound that night I listened to recovery boats picking up pieces of wreckage and "other things". It was a very sobering experience. This string brings it all back as if it was yesterday.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 29th, '06, 15:16

I was for over 20 years a sailboater

Respect only goes so far..............................

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 29th, '06, 16:08

Good one.

Capt. DQ · Post by **Capt. DQ** » Aug 29th, '06, 16:35

Now JP-4 jet fuel will melt the SH** out of your BAYOU LA BATRE, SUNDAY go to meeting boots, for sure!

DQ

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 30th, '06, 09:14

Bruce...

I have made several attempts at responding to your brief comment above, but each seemed either condescending, overly defensive, or just plain silly.. none of which is my style. While this forum is a place where everyone can express themselves without fear of starting a war, it is also a place I suspect where we can express our true feelings. With that in mind I realize many powerboaters have disdain for sailboaters.. believe it or not.. the reverse is also true. I have been doing offshore sailing for over 35 years, 40,000 miles more or less.. and have seen supidity and incompetence from captains with throttles and mainsheets in their hands. I have always acknowledged that everyone has a right to be on the ocean in whatever craft they choose. So all I will say is that it is a big ocean out there, and there is room for everyone!

At age 65, with two bad knees and a tired back, I am very happy to be out in blue water, in a diesel powered Bertram 33!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 30th, '06, 15:23

Just plain silly would have worked because that is my style.

Its my style cause I've dealt with sailers for over 30 years full time.
Now that's not a comfortable 40/hrs per week.

Its all hours of the day or night cause some idot hasn't changed his impeller in 10 years cause 30 bucks is too much money and he's in a hurry to get back home cause the marina has the audacity to charge him for a slip after the tow company just haul'd his but in from offshore.

I then have to crawl into a 180 degree engine room you couldn't get a shoe horn into when its 100 degrees outside so that boater can leave without having to pay overnight dockage.

If I don't then that boater is on the phone with my engine company rep saying I don't want to help him out. Then I get a call from the engine company rep bitchin me out and I will lose referals.

Boat handling really has nothing much to do with it.

Its attitude.

So I remain silly to deal with it and also because I've never really matured past the age of 12.

The comment wasn't a personal dig, it was a generalization of which I've done that and have the T shirt.

Its just like all I ever hear is all marine mechanics are thieves and con men.

I don't take offense cause I don't belong to that group and actually agree with that statement some times.

My attitude is if you can't laugh at yourself, then I'll do it for ya.

If you make it to one of our gatherings, look me up and I'll buy you a clear.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 30th, '06, 17:14

Bruce..

I did not take your comment personally, and I understand that by and large there is a perception (which I might add I know to be well deserved in many cases) that sailboaters are cheap don't spend much money in marinas, and probably the majority are not attentive to their engines... partly I believe the above is true because it is both easier to get into boating via a sailboat (they are less expensive per foot that power boats), and sailboat engines are the "last resort" and used usually to get to and from a slip or mooring, and are not anywhere as important (usually) to a sailor as engines are to a powerboater.

That being said, and I suspect you will agree.. there is a significant dickhead factor with owners of both types of boats. I have seen a sailor tack blindly in front of a power boat when he could have waited a minute or so to let the guy pass, and I have seen power boats blast close by a sailboat with a guy and his wife and three kids on the deck, leaving the wife to scurry and get hold of her kids in a panic. Neither is excusable.. but it happens much too often.

I transitioned to power for several reasons, I am not ashamed of my sailing background, I am here to learn from you and everyone else here, and I enjoy being on the water as much as the rest of the members here.

I accept your offer.. and will buy you the second round!

It is a big ocean! There is room for everybody!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 30th, '06, 17:40

I agree.
Looking forward to meeting you.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 30th, '06, 19:47

Thanks.. same here.

Rocket · Post by **Rocket** » Aug 30th, '06, 20:59

Funny thing about the sailors, powerboaters and Bertrams. Dick Bertram and Ray Hunt were both competitive and successful sailors. Alot of the early Bertram advertising is themed around a Bertram being the "sailor's powerboat". I have raced and cruised in sailboats all my life and also messed around with powerboats since before I was skillfull enough to sail. I have found that alot of my old sailing buddies are turning to power as they age and either time becomes too short or bodies become too sore, many seem to have bertram at or near the top of their list.

I also agree with Randall, i have never seen a board where there are so few disagreements and when there are, it gets sorted out quickly and - I hate to accuse you of this Bruce - maturely as it did above.

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 30th, '06, 23:42

IRGuy wrote:I am not ashamed of my sailing background

That's too bad!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 31st, '06, 06:36

Aw come on doug......

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 31st, '06, 07:23

Doug...

Having sailed out of Jubilee YC for over 20 years I am sure I have crossed behind you a few times..

And probably flipped you the bird on occasion!

I will buy you a cold one too!

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 31st, '06, 07:43

I have always enjoyed the argument as to which is better, more fun, real boating, etc. It is always spirited, and in the past I used to get a bit tired of the accusation that powerboaters are not real boaters because they don't work with nature to get where they are going. There are ups and downs to both.

I do love to race on sailboats, as long as they are not mine. I could not be paid to own one, but that is my own personal choice.

I have come to the conclusion that the difference is simple, and the more you think about it, the more one realizes it to be really, really true.

If you are a sailor, you like the process of getting there, and if you are a power boater you like being there.

Both have strengths and I like it that way.

Dug

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Aug 31st, '06, 08:30

I think that the problem boils down to "day sailers" as opposed to "bluewater sailers" such as yourself who really know what they are dealing with. While I was in school I worked two years at a boatyard and two years as dockmaster at a marina. I've seen both types in both power and sailboats. The "day sailer" types makes me cringe in either type!!

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Aug 31st, '06, 08:44

I have been seasick twice in my life -- both times I was on a sailboat --- end of story!

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 31st, '06, 08:58

Bruce,

Frank knows I'm just busting his balls.

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Aug 31st, '06, 09:13

Bout the only time I get seasick is on RLDT's. excepting when I've been forced to crawl into the engine room of the tubb, after once again blowing a oil slinging dump truck motor and being overpowered by the stench of way to hot anti freeze

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 31st, '06, 09:35

With the number of times you've been in the bilges, you think you'd have built up an immunity to that smell by now.

randall · Post by **randall** » Aug 31st, '06, 09:42

this thread is a hoot......when i moved to utah in 1975 the first thing i found out was it wasnt cool for the powder skiers (me) to hang with the freestylers (bump skiers)....so naturally i became best friends with the best bump skier on the mountain...............then along comes SNOWBOARDS............now its all the skiers against the boarders (me)........just as dumb as sail or power......specially to guys like me who just want to be on or in the water.......sail, paddle , engine ,whatever..............anyway....dont we all hate jet skis

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 31st, '06, 10:21

Wow.. very interesting..

Tom.. Me too.. been sick twice, both times on a sailboat. Really bright sun or a belly full of salt water does me in.

Rawleigh.. Good points.. I never thought of it that way, but you are correct.

Dug.. Also good points.. I always told my powerboater friends (and I do have one or two, but maybe not here LOL) when they told me.. "You can't get anywhere in a sailboat.. they are two damn slow".. that "maybe I can't get anywhere.. but I can get away from everywhere".

Doug.. Over the years I have learned to wear a cast iron jockstrap when I deal with powerboaters.. plus at my age balls are of little use.. if you remember on the 33 forum I gently interduced myself as a humble sailor begging to join the elite powerboater fraternity.

Now Doug.. to ask a question I asked on the 33 forum a couple of months ago.. but nobody answered.. Do you remember the Greel Apple on Rt 1 in Peabody BEFORE it was a female impersonator strip club?

Hmmmmm.....

Matt K · Post by **Matt K** » Aug 31st, '06, 10:33

When testing my B25 on a local lake the jetskiers must have had a hard on from jumping my wake. They would come at me from the bow quarters and jump the wake then race back to set it up again.

Now I don't mind if they stay in back of me and criss cross my wake, but having them cross my bow far too close while I'm at 20+ kts is just not safe. With how close they were coming to me I would not have had the time to avoid them if something happened and of course if it did I would be at fault.

CMP · Post by **CMP** » Aug 31st, '06, 10:56

On the Cape we have a term that covers both jetskis and kayaks....Speed bumps...

CMP :D

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 31st, '06, 11:20

Frank,

I did answer you. As I said on the other site, the Green Apple was a little before my time. I think I missed it by about 10-12 years. When I was finally "of age" the only places in my neck of the woods were the Caberet (aka the Cab) and the Golden Bananna (aka the Bananna) which has since closed.

Funny you should bring this up as I was actually at the Cab last night.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Aug 31st, '06, 12:40

I think Wednesday nights were "amateur" night at the Cabaret. Not that I frequented that place, mind you!

Now.. the Banana was another story!

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Aug 31st, '06, 12:58

It was amateur night!

clay · Post by **clay** » Aug 31st, '06, 17:35

Well Here is My two cents worth on the subject:

The real issue related to ethanol production from corn is the environmental impact, particularly of nitrate pollution. The problem of nitrate pollution is discussed on several websites. One that you might want to visit is http://www.sierraclub.org/compass/archi ... _index.asp.

The basic problem is that intensive use of nitrate fertilizers for (FEDERAL)subsidized corn production for ethanol in the Mississippi Basin has resulted in a runoff that creates a seasonal "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico. This dead zone consists of oxygen-depleted water that is created as a result of nitrate pollution. The area of the dead zone is approximately 6000 square miles. - about the size of New Jersey.

Both the ethanol subsides of the past, and the current high price for ethanol (which is the result of a congressional mandate to substitute ethanol for MTBE immediately as a gasoline additive) create an economic incentive for these practices, which have been going on for the past 30 years.

It is fascinating that many of the politicians from the cornbelt region who so adamantly oppose offshore oil drilling in the eastern Gulf of Mexico and in ANWAR think that the creation of this dead zone is just swell.

Clay

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 31st, '06, 19:55

Clay,
Lake Okeechobee used to be a world class Bass fishing spot. Hugh factory Tournaments. But alas the same problem with Nitrate runoff from farms has killed the lake in terms of fishing.

Once again it didn't make a difference with the politicians involved because of contributions from big sugar and large farm corporations.

Money talks, money buys justice good or bad, money, money, money.

If the boaters want to win, they need to buy a few Washington warts. The boating community needs to pony up and get a few lobbyists with money to spend.

Here's a little good justice story involving money.

A person known to me was shot in the head by her boyfriend when trying to break up.
Luckily the dumb shit used the wrong ammo and the bullet ended up grazing her skull.
He was arrested, first time and then bailed out.

This persons dad, a big time game player, asked the DA what he could expect at trial for a sentence.

The judge was pretty liberal and believed in numerous chances even for violent offenders the DA told him.
Maybe 3 years max.

Well this made her dad crazy so he started to "play the game".

He found out when the Judge's re election campain was. 16 months away.
He got the DA to postpone the trial till after the re election.

The challenger was poorly funded so this Dad took 30k cash and gave it to 100 family members, friends in 300 amounts and told everyone to write a check to the Judges election fund.

In a period of a week, this Judge got this windfall of money which allowed him to win easily.

A few days before the trial was to start a letter was sent to the Judge. What it said I don't know.

The guy was convicted and the DA kept telling this Dad to not expect much and don't be dissapointed with the outcome.

At sentencing the Judge handed down a 25 year sentence and the DA about fell out of her chair.
The Judge also pushed to have the guy spend his time in the toughest prison in the state where he got the front row seat for the nightly show at the "Golden Banana".

On the way out of the court room the DA kept saying I don't believe what I just saw. When she turned to this Dad, he had this big shit ass grin on his face.

Boys, that's how you play the game.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » Sep 1st, '06, 10:09

The original Bertram 31 was inspired when Dick Bertram saw a Ray Hunt designed boat that was built to be a tender to an America's Cup Sailboat. That boat I believe was Easterner, a lovely 12 meter that is still sailing in the NE waters regularly today. Easterner is also a Ray Hunt Design. And Dick Bertram? How did he come to see this handy little tender? Well, he was watching the trials for the America's cup off Newport, so I suppose it is safe to say he was not only a fan of fast and stable powerboats, but also of fast and powerful sail boats.

So all you guys out there so proud of your Bertram's owe a certain respect to the sailors of the world. It was a sailor who designed your hull, and another sailor who recognized the genius of the design and put it into production. And when these sailors combined their talents it revolutionized all that was known and done in the power boat industry up to that time. As you all know, Dick Bertram's Ray Hunt designed original Moppie went on to the race circuit and kicked some power-boater ass. Yeah, that's right. A couple of sailors did that.

Just thought you would like to know.

BTW one of the other highly successful Ray Hunt designs is the Boston Whaler.

bertram31.com

Congressman has Ethanol Problem on his boat.

Congressman has Ethanol Problem on his boat.

Sailboats

stuff

Now that's something everyone can agree on.

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