side windows,
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
side windows,
new to this site so, sorry if this question has been asked a hundred times. looking to replace the side windows in my boat.........ok, its a bertram cousin. blackfin, but hey we dont exist anymore. would like to do a one piece unit. is there a company that makes these or does the frame stay in and the glass fit in. think ill check capt patricks tip sheet board too. thanks.
i have even more questions now, went to the boat yesterday and looked it over. the side windows seem to sit in a flat frame. i met a fiberglass guy there who pretty much stated that he needed to build up a stop and press the glass into the new stop.that will make a frameless window. lots of grinding.......yuch! if i get the frame out, is there a company that will build a new frame to go back in with one piece glass?if i could find someone to build that, it seems to just be chaulked and screwed into the boat opening. any suggestions would be appreciated while i figure out what to do. thanks.
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CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Jun 7th, '06, 14:25
- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
Yup.... http://americanmarine.com/
The frameless window is the cats ass when it comes to looks. I believe that point is un-contested on this site.
The aluminum frame is easier and still waterproof. You pick how much work you want to do the end result will be the same. Look through the images section and you'll be able to tell which boats are frameless and which are framed.
If you can't tell go with new framed windows cause the difference won't matter to your eye.
It really depends on the look you want. i wouldn't recommend a window that opens on this type of boat.
The aluminum frame is easier and still waterproof. You pick how much work you want to do the end result will be the same. Look through the images section and you'll be able to tell which boats are frameless and which are framed.
If you can't tell go with new framed windows cause the difference won't matter to your eye.
It really depends on the look you want. i wouldn't recommend a window that opens on this type of boat.
KR
JP
1977 RLDT "CHIMERA"
JP
1977 RLDT "CHIMERA"
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thuddddddd
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1028
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 07:42
- Location: N. east Ma, home of fat teddy
Nother way to get them solid. Have your local glass company get some heavy machinery gasket and make solid one peice windows(using your existing frames, out of lami, or preferably tempered. the seams where the gasket ends get filled with sealant. the gasket to frame get sealed and the glass to gasket as well. I did it on Crows nest for Big Doug. You'll have to ask him for a real evaluation, as he feds me bull crap every time.(supposedly they look good and don't leak) The windows are different sizez and shapes, at least Dougs were. If you go this way don't let the glass guy just make 1 pattern, they are not mirrored.
I suppose you could do something lke that with the frames out, and using the fiber glass as the edge, but I think there may be to much flybridge flex to kep the glass in and unbroken
Tim
I suppose you could do something lke that with the frames out, and using the fiber glass as the edge, but I think there may be to much flybridge flex to kep the glass in and unbroken
Tim
Thud, spoken as a true Hatt owner.
I personally wouldn’t set the glass in with out frames unless you remove the flimsy front frames and use a fiberglass insert. We noticed a marked difference since we glassed in the front windows. The hole boat seems stiffer and the sound changed as you hit on coming boat wakes and chop. I would use Sikaflex to bed in any windows, the stuff is amazing. I have a 20oz sausage gun if anyone needs to borrow one.
RussP
I personally wouldn’t set the glass in with out frames unless you remove the flimsy front frames and use a fiberglass insert. We noticed a marked difference since we glassed in the front windows. The hole boat seems stiffer and the sound changed as you hit on coming boat wakes and chop. I would use Sikaflex to bed in any windows, the stuff is amazing. I have a 20oz sausage gun if anyone needs to borrow one.
RussP
KAHUNA 1963 Sportfish
thats my question. on the frameless, wheres the frame. i do have the front windshield glassed in but, wonder about flybridge flex. the sliding glass frame that is in there would be easy to replace and maybe thats the way for me to go. i have looked at some of the frame extrusions and maybe i need to look a little more. thanks for the link to that site. also found one in lancaster pa. i can drive there and make sure i can get it my way. i just dont want it to screw in around a perimiter flange on the outside. its not totally flat that way anyhow. but the opening seems to be very flat and square.....im sure there is some extrusion that will work. thanks for the comments.
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charlie falkenstein
- Senior Member
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Jul 26th, '06, 18:10
- Location: mt. laurel n.j.
side windows
ditto,i would like to know if that was a fabricated front window insert and where it came from,the boat looks fabulous!
I made the insert myself out of divincell foam.
I used the two corner pieces from a old frame as a template and and installed them first. I then installed the two flat pieces and covered the hole insert with 1208 Bi-axel cloth useing epoxy resin.
I pre finished the inside and gel coated to keep the sanding down inside. It did require a fair ammount of fairing useing a 18" air board sander. I made my own fairing material with epoxy, micro ballons and cabo-sil and the final fairing with Awl Fair.
I guess I could have purchased a pre made insert but that that takes all the fun out of it. I have around 48 hours labor into the insert and worth every second. I fabriced the hard top the same way.
RussP
I used the two corner pieces from a old frame as a template and and installed them first. I then installed the two flat pieces and covered the hole insert with 1208 Bi-axel cloth useing epoxy resin.
I pre finished the inside and gel coated to keep the sanding down inside. It did require a fair ammount of fairing useing a 18" air board sander. I made my own fairing material with epoxy, micro ballons and cabo-sil and the final fairing with Awl Fair.
I guess I could have purchased a pre made insert but that that takes all the fun out of it. I have around 48 hours labor into the insert and worth every second. I fabriced the hard top the same way.
RussP
KAHUNA 1963 Sportfish
russp my question is did you cut a scarved in the 2" oringinal fiberglass "wall" that the front windshield sit on?i would imagine the biaxle has to tie or knit into the original fiberglass somehow for strenth and to prevent a crack along this seam after hitting a big wave.i guess you had to do the same with the top where it intersects with the brow extension of the bridge.you have my respect doing every thing yourself after doing the research and capt patrick giving us a pro. step by step approach.
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CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Jun 7th, '06, 14:25
- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
Bob,
Russ was my star full time helper for the last year of the "Buddy Boy" project... He's a pretty quick study even if he is too much of a neat freak.
Capt Pat: "Where's that frickin' tool that I was just using? I just had it in my hand 3 minutes ago..."
Russ: "Oh, sorry... I put it away.."
Boat looks real good, Russ!
Br,
Patrick
Russ was my star full time helper for the last year of the "Buddy Boy" project... He's a pretty quick study even if he is too much of a neat freak.
Capt Pat: "Where's that frickin' tool that I was just using? I just had it in my hand 3 minutes ago..."
Russ: "Oh, sorry... I put it away.."
Boat looks real good, Russ!
Br,
Patrick
i'm new here so if this is redundant, sorry but, i drove out to aluminum 2000 yesterday in lancaster pa. they make windows for boats and boy can they do everything. i'm glad i went, saw what i want, they powder coat everything not paint, and they will do anything you need. a tour of the plant answered all my questions. thanks to all for suggestions but, i'm sure i'll use them. its only 60 miles away from me and they do beautiful work. i'm sure other company's in florida can do the same but so close to home is easy.
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Raybo Marine NY
- Senior Member
- Posts: 907
- Joined: Jan 3rd, '07, 00:28
- Location: Lindenhurst, NY
- Contact:
I have yet to see powdercoating hold up any better then paint.
its easier and cheaper to powdercoat. The process is simpler for parts like frames and tubing because you dont have to shoot paint in the air trying to get it on the surface.
Like paint, in a saltwater enviroment- it will require maintance and repair.
If they offer a stainless frame option- go for it even if it costs double.
its easier and cheaper to powdercoat. The process is simpler for parts like frames and tubing because you dont have to shoot paint in the air trying to get it on the surface.
Like paint, in a saltwater enviroment- it will require maintance and repair.
If they offer a stainless frame option- go for it even if it costs double.
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In Memory of Vicroy
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2340
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 09:19
- Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Anodize it...with proper prep, it's 10 times better than powder or paint.
Been there both ways....paint will not stick real good to aluminum unless you do about a 12 step process like Boeing does on their airplanes. Powder coating is good until you chip the coating (which you will) and water gets under it and it will bubble up and you can't stop it. Anodizing is much more involved, but once its in place you can't cut it with a grinder.
UV
Been there both ways....paint will not stick real good to aluminum unless you do about a 12 step process like Boeing does on their airplanes. Powder coating is good until you chip the coating (which you will) and water gets under it and it will bubble up and you can't stop it. Anodizing is much more involved, but once its in place you can't cut it with a grinder.
UV
i agree with raybo marine,and vic powder coating is very differcult to maintain. i have a fighting chair that is power coated and i sent one part or another out every year to get redone.if you put a screw through through any piece forget about it -self destruck even with tuf-gel ozzing out all around the screw heads.
powder coating
powder coating has come a long way in the last 10 years. back in 98 I was redoing a sunk mako and had the overhead box powder coated. It looked like crap ( orange peel ) and thought I would never do it again. Last year I took some boat parts to a guy in south jersey ( he does all the powder coating for O.C.C.) and man the stuff came out great. Looks like awlgrip. Holding up well, and the price was less than I could buy the awlgrip. The owner told me the powder is better than in the past and anything that is marine after sandblasting they bake it with no powder to gas out any salt. Lastly they clearcoat marine parts.
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CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Jun 7th, '06, 14:25
- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
Coating Aluminum:
The inherent nature of an aluminum molecule is to react with oxygen immediately upon contact, combining to become aluminum oxide. Just like the iron in steel reacts to produce red iron oxide. Once the molecular surface oxidizes the process is effectively stopped, unless new metallic molecules resurface. Molecular resurfacing happens due to the existing oxide layer being removed by abrasion, acid, or erosion.
The longevity of any protective/cosmetic coating of the metal is only as good as the techniques & materials used to prep & apply the coating. That goes for paints, powder coating, & electrochemical materials/processes such as anodization.
As is the case for all final finishes, the principal & most important aspect is preparation. Without the proper prep work, all finishes fail....
Back to aluminum specifically:
Before any surface finish can be applied to aluminum, (other than anodization), the surface must go through a conversion process to change the oxide layer to a hydride layer, (AlH3). This done with an acid wash, usually containing dilute phosphoric or hydrochloric acid. Without this conversion any coated surface treatment is doomed to failure. The common chemical wash available is a product called Alumaprep, and is available through a number of manufacturers, including U.S. Paints which called their version AlumiPrep 33.
In simple analysis, this wash is creating, on a microscopic level, the same surface of aluminum hydride as is produced by anodization, which has surface layer thicknesses between .0002" - 0.1000". Most anodized product for the marine environment are between .0007" and .0012". So, this conversion wash leaves a very fine and fragile surface condition which is basically suitable for coating with other products.
To further increase the protective layer between surface coating and the aluminum, a process called alodining is called far. Alodine is a strong oxidizer and also does a chemical conversion of the surface. Alodine is applied in the same way as the acid wash, but leaves a thicker surface coating. Again, this surface condition is not nearly as thick as anodizing, but far greater than acid wash alone.
All paint or powder coat surface coatings are applied in the presence of oxygen & will trap some oxygen between the coating & the substrate, so great care must be taken not to disturb or scratch through these chemically generated surface treatments before the coating(s) are applied.
Painting: Not all paints are created equal... 2 part paints are superior to single part paints. Harder paints are more likely to resist abrasion than softer paints, but have more tendency to chip than softer paints. No paint, or even powder coat, should be applied without a suitable primer.
In most cases, for both paint and powder coat, an epoxy based primer is called for. Primers for paint are usually 2 part & primers for powder coating are single part.
There are specially formulated primers for use over metallic substrates that contain zinc. My favorite is a 2 part vinyl phenolic zinc primer, (VPP-702), produced by Preservo Paint Co. in Houston, Tx. This primer was developed for NASA &, until just a few years ago, was not available to the general public. Awlgrip's non-corrosive primers contain zinc.
Paint/powder coat vs. Anodized:
Cosmetically, the choice is up to the customer. Do you want the aluminum to be hidden & blend with the painted surfaces around it or do want the best & easiest way to surface treat the aluminum to ward off oxidation?
All three ways require periodic maintenance to remain effective barriers against oxygen reaching the aluminum. The easiest, but more frequently required, maintenance will be exhibited by anodization. But this maintenance must begin at the very beginning when the anodized aluminum is first installed. It must always be kept clean and free of salts and other minerals collecting on the surface. It must be sealed to block the porousity of the finish to keep corrosive substances from penetrating the hydrate layer.
While the hydrate layer of anodization is much harder than any paint or powder coat, it is ultra thin and can be scratched or abraded without much difficulty, (Sorry, UV, but it ain't tough enough to stand up to a grinder!).
Again, once aluminum has access to oxygen, it's going to create aluminum oxide & spread like a cancer benieth the surrounding anodiztion. So maintenance must be preformed frequently. Never leave anodized aluminum un-washed after a trip or longer than a week or so. Always shammy dry wet anodized aluminum as soon as possible. All tap & sea water contains minerals. When water is left to dry by evaporation, the minerals are concentrated into the evaporating droplet and result in a very concentrated particle deposit. That pin point deposit will attack the anodization with a vengeance. Once the attack has successfully breached the hydride surface, it's game over, its a pit that grows larger & larger. Monthly, apply a sealant or wax to the entire surface. This both seals out moisture & enhances the beauty of the anodization.
On powder coating:
Like Jon C stated, "Powder coating has come a long way in the last 10 years". The advances are both product and process related. In terms of painted vs. powder coated metal, powder coating is far superior to painting. As always, the key ingredient in the equation is PREP!
Like any process, there are lots of those who can do the job, but only a few that can it right... In my little 3 traffic light town, there are two powder coaters. One makes steel gates, signs, & plasma cut sheet metal objects. They're good designers, good welders, and do a thriving business. They powder coat almost all of their products, but do so with a cheap gun, no primer, and labor that only understands the process in rudimentary terms. The other coater is highly profession, uses state of the art equipment & knows the process in depth. The difference is day vs. night... Both have done work for me, but only the second guy is trusted with something to go onto a boat.
In terms of powder coat chipping, I find that, as Robbie points out, one is not significantly better than another. The advantages that powder coat does have over paint, is that it's a heaver coating & reaches and protects into crevices far better than sprayed paint.
Bob, mentions problems with chipping around fasteners. This type of problem can be avoided by using a cushioning washer between the fastener & the powder coated part. Actually this is something that should be done even with a painted surface.
There are two factors in play here. One being the rotational force & friction of the fastener once it comes into contact with the coated part. The second is the torque pressure of the fastener bearing down on the coating. Even a standard metal washer between the fastener & the coating will reduce the problem, but best is a fiber or nylon washer that will absorb most of the destructive forces. TefGel & TufGel are great for isolating dissimilar metals but it's not designed for, or has, any cushioning abilities...
Br,
Patrick
The inherent nature of an aluminum molecule is to react with oxygen immediately upon contact, combining to become aluminum oxide. Just like the iron in steel reacts to produce red iron oxide. Once the molecular surface oxidizes the process is effectively stopped, unless new metallic molecules resurface. Molecular resurfacing happens due to the existing oxide layer being removed by abrasion, acid, or erosion.
The longevity of any protective/cosmetic coating of the metal is only as good as the techniques & materials used to prep & apply the coating. That goes for paints, powder coating, & electrochemical materials/processes such as anodization.
As is the case for all final finishes, the principal & most important aspect is preparation. Without the proper prep work, all finishes fail....
Back to aluminum specifically:
Before any surface finish can be applied to aluminum, (other than anodization), the surface must go through a conversion process to change the oxide layer to a hydride layer, (AlH3). This done with an acid wash, usually containing dilute phosphoric or hydrochloric acid. Without this conversion any coated surface treatment is doomed to failure. The common chemical wash available is a product called Alumaprep, and is available through a number of manufacturers, including U.S. Paints which called their version AlumiPrep 33.
In simple analysis, this wash is creating, on a microscopic level, the same surface of aluminum hydride as is produced by anodization, which has surface layer thicknesses between .0002" - 0.1000". Most anodized product for the marine environment are between .0007" and .0012". So, this conversion wash leaves a very fine and fragile surface condition which is basically suitable for coating with other products.
To further increase the protective layer between surface coating and the aluminum, a process called alodining is called far. Alodine is a strong oxidizer and also does a chemical conversion of the surface. Alodine is applied in the same way as the acid wash, but leaves a thicker surface coating. Again, this surface condition is not nearly as thick as anodizing, but far greater than acid wash alone.
All paint or powder coat surface coatings are applied in the presence of oxygen & will trap some oxygen between the coating & the substrate, so great care must be taken not to disturb or scratch through these chemically generated surface treatments before the coating(s) are applied.
Painting: Not all paints are created equal... 2 part paints are superior to single part paints. Harder paints are more likely to resist abrasion than softer paints, but have more tendency to chip than softer paints. No paint, or even powder coat, should be applied without a suitable primer.
In most cases, for both paint and powder coat, an epoxy based primer is called for. Primers for paint are usually 2 part & primers for powder coating are single part.
There are specially formulated primers for use over metallic substrates that contain zinc. My favorite is a 2 part vinyl phenolic zinc primer, (VPP-702), produced by Preservo Paint Co. in Houston, Tx. This primer was developed for NASA &, until just a few years ago, was not available to the general public. Awlgrip's non-corrosive primers contain zinc.
Paint/powder coat vs. Anodized:
Cosmetically, the choice is up to the customer. Do you want the aluminum to be hidden & blend with the painted surfaces around it or do want the best & easiest way to surface treat the aluminum to ward off oxidation?
All three ways require periodic maintenance to remain effective barriers against oxygen reaching the aluminum. The easiest, but more frequently required, maintenance will be exhibited by anodization. But this maintenance must begin at the very beginning when the anodized aluminum is first installed. It must always be kept clean and free of salts and other minerals collecting on the surface. It must be sealed to block the porousity of the finish to keep corrosive substances from penetrating the hydrate layer.
While the hydrate layer of anodization is much harder than any paint or powder coat, it is ultra thin and can be scratched or abraded without much difficulty, (Sorry, UV, but it ain't tough enough to stand up to a grinder!).
Again, once aluminum has access to oxygen, it's going to create aluminum oxide & spread like a cancer benieth the surrounding anodiztion. So maintenance must be preformed frequently. Never leave anodized aluminum un-washed after a trip or longer than a week or so. Always shammy dry wet anodized aluminum as soon as possible. All tap & sea water contains minerals. When water is left to dry by evaporation, the minerals are concentrated into the evaporating droplet and result in a very concentrated particle deposit. That pin point deposit will attack the anodization with a vengeance. Once the attack has successfully breached the hydride surface, it's game over, its a pit that grows larger & larger. Monthly, apply a sealant or wax to the entire surface. This both seals out moisture & enhances the beauty of the anodization.
On powder coating:
Like Jon C stated, "Powder coating has come a long way in the last 10 years". The advances are both product and process related. In terms of painted vs. powder coated metal, powder coating is far superior to painting. As always, the key ingredient in the equation is PREP!
Like any process, there are lots of those who can do the job, but only a few that can it right... In my little 3 traffic light town, there are two powder coaters. One makes steel gates, signs, & plasma cut sheet metal objects. They're good designers, good welders, and do a thriving business. They powder coat almost all of their products, but do so with a cheap gun, no primer, and labor that only understands the process in rudimentary terms. The other coater is highly profession, uses state of the art equipment & knows the process in depth. The difference is day vs. night... Both have done work for me, but only the second guy is trusted with something to go onto a boat.
In terms of powder coat chipping, I find that, as Robbie points out, one is not significantly better than another. The advantages that powder coat does have over paint, is that it's a heaver coating & reaches and protects into crevices far better than sprayed paint.
Bob, mentions problems with chipping around fasteners. This type of problem can be avoided by using a cushioning washer between the fastener & the powder coated part. Actually this is something that should be done even with a painted surface.
There are two factors in play here. One being the rotational force & friction of the fastener once it comes into contact with the coated part. The second is the torque pressure of the fastener bearing down on the coating. Even a standard metal washer between the fastener & the coating will reduce the problem, but best is a fiber or nylon washer that will absorb most of the destructive forces. TefGel & TufGel are great for isolating dissimilar metals but it's not designed for, or has, any cushioning abilities...
Br,
Patrick
capt patrick, thanks for that answer. that is the long intellegent version of what i was trying to say. the work i saw there was top notch, specifically for boats and more specifically yachts.......doors and windows that had a fit and finish i would have a hard time turning down. the windows in my boat now are not as good a quality as i see here from this company and they lasted 20 years. this is what they do and they seemed to be building some awfully big windows in the shop.not trying to blast any recomendations but my fiberglass guy told me go with this company over one in florida. he said they are night and day in quality. he worked at viking for many years and in fact they had windows they were building for viking. the shop was hugh, you kind of wonder what a business like this is doing in amish country, but there they are. thanks.
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In Memory of Vicroy
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2340
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 09:19
- Location: Baton Rouge, LA
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CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
- Posts: 4161
- Joined: Jun 7th, '06, 14:25
- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
The website is:
http://www.aluminum2000.com/
They make good stuff. All my father's windows are made by this company on his Hunt.
Dug
http://www.aluminum2000.com/
They make good stuff. All my father's windows are made by this company on his Hunt.
Dug
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