I am going to be reduilding the interior of my B33 FBC this winter.. will be stripping the main salon back to the bulkheads and hull, and starting over. Will try to keep the small amount of existing wood trim around the steps down to the lower level, as it is bent and not easy for me to replace. I have a full woodworking shop and all the tools I need to do pretty much any usual woodworking task.
I also will be making a new door to replace the original aluminum and glass slider. Later I am considering covering boards around the cockpit.
Teak these days is priced so high it is out of sight for most mere mortals, (although I realize if you own a Bertram you probably don't consider yourself a "mortal"!). Present prices for small quantities are in the $15/board foot range. I have spoken to quite a few hardwood suppliers and several have suggested teak substitutes. I also suspect a lot of the boats built in the past 10 years or so which have teak looking trim really have other woods which look like teak.
Have any of you here any experience with any of these woods, and if so what are your opinions? So far I have been referred to "Afromosia" and "Iroko", with a couple of suggestions to consider "Balau" and Nyatoh".
Teak substitutes.. Capt Pat or anyone else?
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
When I was in Costa Rica about 1.5 years ago, I had a bar chat with a guy that was there for the sole purpose to buy and load a crate full of teak to ship back to himself in the states. He was completely re-doing his boat interior and cockpit too.
I don't remember how much money he said he was saving himself with that weird venture, but it was a lot. The landscape in northwest Costa Rica is riddled with teak trees and so it's super cheap. I don't know if that's any help or not, but maybe something to consider.
I don't remember how much money he said he was saving himself with that weird venture, but it was a lot. The landscape in northwest Costa Rica is riddled with teak trees and so it's super cheap. I don't know if that's any help or not, but maybe something to consider.
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CaptPatrick
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Frank,
There really is no substitute of quality teak, especially if it is going to be subjected to water. Teak is a naturally close grained & oily wood that not only will standup to the marine environment, but also remain dimensionally stable & cosmetically appealing.
The price of teak really hasn't escallated that much over the past decade & has always been expensive. The last cockpit deck that I did cost around $12 a board foot in 1999.
You might find Honduran teak at less expense, but it's not going to be agged lumber. High quality teak, (often called Burmese Teak), is seasoned for many years, as whole logs, before it's lumbered. South American teak is rarely seasoned for more than a few months, lumbered, and sometimes kiln dried. This stuff isn't dimensionally stable, will crack, warp & shrink almost beyond belief.
My suggestion is minimize, (or nearly eliminate), the use of teak on your boat if the price of quality seasoned teak is out of your budget range.
As Randy said, mahogany is another acceptable choice. Matter of fact, mahogany was the choice of classic boatbuilders long before teak became the standard.
I don't have any first hand knowledge of the other species that you mentioned, but I'd guess that they are only marginally less expensive & far less durable than quality teak...
Br,
Patrick
There really is no substitute of quality teak, especially if it is going to be subjected to water. Teak is a naturally close grained & oily wood that not only will standup to the marine environment, but also remain dimensionally stable & cosmetically appealing.
The price of teak really hasn't escallated that much over the past decade & has always been expensive. The last cockpit deck that I did cost around $12 a board foot in 1999.
You might find Honduran teak at less expense, but it's not going to be agged lumber. High quality teak, (often called Burmese Teak), is seasoned for many years, as whole logs, before it's lumbered. South American teak is rarely seasoned for more than a few months, lumbered, and sometimes kiln dried. This stuff isn't dimensionally stable, will crack, warp & shrink almost beyond belief.
My suggestion is minimize, (or nearly eliminate), the use of teak on your boat if the price of quality seasoned teak is out of your budget range.
As Randy said, mahogany is another acceptable choice. Matter of fact, mahogany was the choice of classic boatbuilders long before teak became the standard.
I don't have any first hand knowledge of the other species that you mentioned, but I'd guess that they are only marginally less expensive & far less durable than quality teak...
Br,
Patrick
I beleive mahogany is roughly 1/2 the bd.ft. price of good teak...
If that still is the case, then why not use mahogany on all of your interior applications and reserve the teak for the coverboards, etc.
Mahogany has beautiful grain, looks incredible with multiple coats of varnish.
It resists dings and seems to be much harder than teak as well, teak does dent eaisly... making the mahogany ideal for interior app's...
On the exterior, the mahogany must be totally encapsulated (varnish,epoxy) or it will rot. The beauty of teak is that it can be left natural (periodic maint.cleaning and oiling) and will last and last...great (best) nonskid, cleans up easily, looks phenominal.
I've fooled around with nyatoh, roble, paduk and a couple others that were billed as a teak sub... they weren't.
If that still is the case, then why not use mahogany on all of your interior applications and reserve the teak for the coverboards, etc.
Mahogany has beautiful grain, looks incredible with multiple coats of varnish.
It resists dings and seems to be much harder than teak as well, teak does dent eaisly... making the mahogany ideal for interior app's...
On the exterior, the mahogany must be totally encapsulated (varnish,epoxy) or it will rot. The beauty of teak is that it can be left natural (periodic maint.cleaning and oiling) and will last and last...great (best) nonskid, cleans up easily, looks phenominal.
I've fooled around with nyatoh, roble, paduk and a couple others that were billed as a teak sub... they weren't.
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Brewster Minton
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Skipper Dick
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All the boats I had in Alaska had teak and I used it about as much as I could. It was easy to care for up there. All I had to do is sand it and re-oil it in the spring and it looked great all summer long. I kept all my boats covered in the winter to protect them as much as possible from the cold and snow.
But down here in SW Florida, I've just about given up on using it. I've tried many different types of finishes to no avail. They all seem to get beat up by the constant hot sun here. And except for the teak on the interior, I'm using anything but. I even used purple heart for a bow sprit, but the sun beat up the finish so bad after 6 months that I'm going to replace it with fiberglass and re-use the purple heart for interior cup holders or something.
Dick
But down here in SW Florida, I've just about given up on using it. I've tried many different types of finishes to no avail. They all seem to get beat up by the constant hot sun here. And except for the teak on the interior, I'm using anything but. I even used purple heart for a bow sprit, but the sun beat up the finish so bad after 6 months that I'm going to replace it with fiberglass and re-use the purple heart for interior cup holders or something.
Dick
1983 Bertram 28 FBC w/300 Merc Horizon
having recently walked around a bit on brewster's gunwales id have to say that teak is definately the first choice...i only use mahogany because i have a large supply left over from 10 years of architectural sculpture...free is hard to pass up....and if you do the work....there is nothing more beautiful....it seems like for interior work any wood you like the look of would be fine....no?
I dunno Randall, think it depends on the finish, and how well it was done...
I've seen some oak interiors with problems... mold, u.v. fading, a little rot as well. We all know oak is a good hardwood, very durable, etc... but the moisture seems to wreak havock. But I bet if it had a few coats of epoxy, followed with several coats of epiphanes or petit spar, it would do ok...
But all it needs is one small area of water intrusion and the problems begin.
Having a large surplus of mahogany is a good thing, I think your boards and platform look great. What did you finish them in? How slick is that swim platform when wet?
But being a long time surfer, I doubt you have any trouble keepin your feet under you.
I've seen some oak interiors with problems... mold, u.v. fading, a little rot as well. We all know oak is a good hardwood, very durable, etc... but the moisture seems to wreak havock. But I bet if it had a few coats of epoxy, followed with several coats of epiphanes or petit spar, it would do ok...
But all it needs is one small area of water intrusion and the problems begin.
Having a large surplus of mahogany is a good thing, I think your boards and platform look great. What did you finish them in? How slick is that swim platform when wet?
But being a long time surfer, I doubt you have any trouble keepin your feet under you.
i take it back...i would never use oak in any trim piece on a boat....turns black if you spit on it.....i did the swim platform with epoxy then poly...not as slippery as it looks...dont know why....the cover boards are epoxy then matt poly....easy to walk on and very durable...scuff em and recoat every other year
Thanks to you all! As I was afraid.. there are several schools of thought when it comes to this issue. At first I was considering an artificial teak substitute for the cockpit and combings.. the posts about Flexiteek and other similar materials a whole back turned me off to that idea. Now I am faced with real teak or nothing it seems.
Randall.. beautiful job! I am envious! But several years ago I completely rebuilt a sailboat (sorry to use that word, Bruce) and used mahogany for the cockpit sides, handrails on the cabin top, hatches, companionway cover, etc. I stained it and varnished it.. and found that it really needed so much maintenence that I was once tempted to paint it! And that was in New England.. now I am in the sunny south, where that issue will be worse. So.. no exterior mahogany.
Buju.. I tend to agree with you.. I can use mahogany in the interior and teak on the exterior. I have built some furniture and boat stuff out of it and like the way it machines, but to me it is not an exterior wood. My experience with oak is that it is fine for structural use, but I feel the open grain does not look appropriate in a boat, plus it does rot when it is sealed but then moisture gets under the finish.. it gets black and smells bad.
Skipper Dick.. Can you please elaborate a little more about what happened to your teak in FL? How did you finish it? Did it check, crack, warp? what you say concerns me. I am thinking about simply trying to keep it clean and well oiled.. regularly. I know teak contains so much natural oil it does not take varnish or other skin forming finishes well, so anything exterior will just be oiled. I have seen owners labor for a year to strip and revarnish teak, and three years later it looked like crap.
Capt Pat.. Thanks for your valued advice! I was hoping you had some experience with some of the real wood substitutes. They sell a few of them around here.. mainly for homeowner's decks and porches. I have a hardwood supplier here who sells teak and balau, and can get afromosia, and he swears that a lot of the teak sold today is one of the substitutes, so why not buy up front what you are really getting anyway.
Brewster and Sean.. Thanks as well! I like Brewster's approach! I can either agonize over details or use the boat. A no brainer! But Sean.. I have a difficult time justifying driving 50 miles to another lumber yard with the price of gas today.. South America is a little out of my range for the relatively small amout of material I need.
To complicate the issue, I have met someone here in town who says he has a couple of sheets of teak veneered plywood he wants to sell to me at a "good" price, left when he sold his boat before he began to restore it a couple of years ago.. this might let me considxer teak in the interior as well.
I will let you all know how this goes. Thanks again to all of you! I really appreciate everyone's suggestions!
Randall.. beautiful job! I am envious! But several years ago I completely rebuilt a sailboat (sorry to use that word, Bruce) and used mahogany for the cockpit sides, handrails on the cabin top, hatches, companionway cover, etc. I stained it and varnished it.. and found that it really needed so much maintenence that I was once tempted to paint it! And that was in New England.. now I am in the sunny south, where that issue will be worse. So.. no exterior mahogany.
Buju.. I tend to agree with you.. I can use mahogany in the interior and teak on the exterior. I have built some furniture and boat stuff out of it and like the way it machines, but to me it is not an exterior wood. My experience with oak is that it is fine for structural use, but I feel the open grain does not look appropriate in a boat, plus it does rot when it is sealed but then moisture gets under the finish.. it gets black and smells bad.
Skipper Dick.. Can you please elaborate a little more about what happened to your teak in FL? How did you finish it? Did it check, crack, warp? what you say concerns me. I am thinking about simply trying to keep it clean and well oiled.. regularly. I know teak contains so much natural oil it does not take varnish or other skin forming finishes well, so anything exterior will just be oiled. I have seen owners labor for a year to strip and revarnish teak, and three years later it looked like crap.
Capt Pat.. Thanks for your valued advice! I was hoping you had some experience with some of the real wood substitutes. They sell a few of them around here.. mainly for homeowner's decks and porches. I have a hardwood supplier here who sells teak and balau, and can get afromosia, and he swears that a lot of the teak sold today is one of the substitutes, so why not buy up front what you are really getting anyway.
Brewster and Sean.. Thanks as well! I like Brewster's approach! I can either agonize over details or use the boat. A no brainer! But Sean.. I have a difficult time justifying driving 50 miles to another lumber yard with the price of gas today.. South America is a little out of my range for the relatively small amout of material I need.
To complicate the issue, I have met someone here in town who says he has a couple of sheets of teak veneered plywood he wants to sell to me at a "good" price, left when he sold his boat before he began to restore it a couple of years ago.. this might let me considxer teak in the interior as well.
I will let you all know how this goes. Thanks again to all of you! I really appreciate everyone's suggestions!
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Skipper Dick
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One of the boats I had in Alaska had Teak all along the tops of the gunwales and the bulkhead was solid teak I shipped it down to Punta Gorda just outside of Port Charlotte, Florida. Before it left Alaska I sanded and put a nice finsh of oil on all the teak. The boat arrived in May and by the end of July it looked like it had a disease. The oil seemed to be cooked right out and I ended up with that gray teak look that takes a good amount of time to get back in shape. That was just in three months. I never paid much attention to what was happening because it was at a marina and I was spending most of my time overseeing a house being built. I could have covered the boat and saved a bunch of work, but didn't notice it. Then over the course of the next two years, I used three different types of finish. All highly recommended for teak and, acdording to the containers, were the last type of finish I would need. Within 3 or 4 mnonths of each application, the finish cracked and started allowing moisture to get into and under the finish. That was a bigger mess since I had to use a finish remover to get to the wood. I got rid of the boat and went back to a Bertram 28 and the only teak I'll put in/on it is inside the salon.
There are several sail boats on my cannal and I've notice that little by little their owners are stripping off the teak for a substitute. I love the looks of wood, but I love fishing more and the sun here most of the time is murder on finishes and wood.
Dick
There are several sail boats on my cannal and I've notice that little by little their owners are stripping off the teak for a substitute. I love the looks of wood, but I love fishing more and the sun here most of the time is murder on finishes and wood.
Dick
1983 Bertram 28 FBC w/300 Merc Horizon
Skipper Dick,
Sounds like the initial problem with the teak could've been due to a serious change in lattitude. Big difference in ambient humidity, uv intensity, etc from AK to FL... Teak that is used to living in Alaska could protest a bit after that first sunburn...
The teak that I have in constant and direct uv exposure gets resurfaced (lightly sanded or teak cleaner) every month in the summer, every two in the winter. And rubbed with teak oil weekly. The stuff that is not in direct sunlight gets redone maybe once to twice a year max, with periodic oiling in between.
Sounds like the initial problem with the teak could've been due to a serious change in lattitude. Big difference in ambient humidity, uv intensity, etc from AK to FL... Teak that is used to living in Alaska could protest a bit after that first sunburn...
The teak that I have in constant and direct uv exposure gets resurfaced (lightly sanded or teak cleaner) every month in the summer, every two in the winter. And rubbed with teak oil weekly. The stuff that is not in direct sunlight gets redone maybe once to twice a year max, with periodic oiling in between.
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Skipper Dick
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Buju,
That's a very good point. The move probably shook up its system, but I did replace a piece from a supplier down here and had close to the same results. I think the key is more frequent maintenance just as you do. I'm a little lax when it comes to teak, but you can eat or drink off of my bilge and you won't find a mar or scratch in my gel coat.
Dick
That's a very good point. The move probably shook up its system, but I did replace a piece from a supplier down here and had close to the same results. I think the key is more frequent maintenance just as you do. I'm a little lax when it comes to teak, but you can eat or drink off of my bilge and you won't find a mar or scratch in my gel coat.
Dick
1983 Bertram 28 FBC w/300 Merc Horizon
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