Our Ethanol Problems are being looked into by The WSJ
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
-
In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
Our Ethanol Problems are being looked into by The WSJ
Looks like the Wall Street Journal really means it. Got a call from their reporter Rob Tomsho and he's flying to East Hampton on Tuesday to meet with me and others I have sent him to who have suffered from the Ethanol problem. Sounds like he's planning to spend a few days between here and Montauk. He really wants input from other states, too. I have passed on telephone numbers from site brothers who have contacted me from elsewhere. Send me more. If its a good story, we should fight to get Navgas like the aviation industry got Avgas. The fear of a class action suit on a national scale after a Wall Street Journal national edition story could possibly do it. Uncle Vic- want to be our lawyer? Walter
-
UNIQUE_NAME
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Jul 26th, '06, 21:04
i spoke with him today about my tale of woe. also put 2 other long islanders and 2 connecticuts in touch. another hatt owner had an adjuster come take a look for a claim. (no results yet) but the adjuster apparently works with multiple companies and knew of close to 100 cases (his number). as far as claims go, he stated boatus is rejecting anything that smells of ethanol as "normal wear and tear".
what is normal about a fuel tank disolving?
what is normal about a fuel tank disolving?
1973 38' HATTERAS AFT CABIN
I spoke with Rob yesterday and it sounded as though he would use some of the facts from our discussion in his article. It would be nice to use this as leverage to get the feds to allow the marine industry to get avgas. I also hope it puts some pressure on the engine manufacturers to do a better job of honoring their warranties. When Crusader and their secondary insurance company saw that I had glass tanks, they dismissed my claim on my 200 hour-old motor without even digging into the root cause of my problem.
-
Fred Phinney
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Jul 5th, '06, 15:26
Ethanol and The Wall Street Journal
I received a call this morning from Rob Tomsho-WSJ. Asked me about my experience(s) problems with Ethanol, what type of boat, when problem(s) started, out of pocket costs thus far, about my using auxilary "outboard type" fuel tanks, do I plan to sell my B25, etc. As of now I'm meeting him Wednesday (8/2) afternoon in Greenport at Brewers Stirling Harbor Marine to discuss in detail. I'll report in after we meet.
Fred Phinney
Fred Phinney
-
In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
This guy is being very thorough and has called every single name I fed him and as earlier posts show, he is traveling to actually meet with everyone. He is flying in from Boston, driving to East Hampton on Tuesday afternoon to meet with me and others, then on to Montauk to meet with others. Guess he'll take the ferry to Greenport and perhaps down Island after that.
I'm not sure if he's more interested in the financial implications or the safety ones, but my own feelings are that John Q. Public doesn't give a damn about us boat guys, but sure as hell are concerned about their personal safety. We who own boats know that our ability to get back is a safety issue as is every turn of the key at starting. Here's hoping this does us some good. My objective is Navgas! Just don't put the Ethanol in...simple! They claim there's not enough anyway! Walter
I'm not sure if he's more interested in the financial implications or the safety ones, but my own feelings are that John Q. Public doesn't give a damn about us boat guys, but sure as hell are concerned about their personal safety. We who own boats know that our ability to get back is a safety issue as is every turn of the key at starting. Here's hoping this does us some good. My objective is Navgas! Just don't put the Ethanol in...simple! They claim there's not enough anyway! Walter
-
R Cahoon
- Senior Member
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 11:37
- Location: Falmouth "Cape Cod" MA.
- Contact:
Lot of newspapers are calling here because they hear we a replacing tanks. I think up to 5 or 6 local papers.
Certainly stressing our plight and the minimal gains with ethanol verses the major inconveniences.
Unfortunatly the boating public only consumes a very small percentage of gas compared to the general public, and are plights are not well heard YET, but with the newspaper and the media catching on to this we might be heard. But I find it hard to believe they would go back to MBTE.
Keep Smilin
Certainly stressing our plight and the minimal gains with ethanol verses the major inconveniences.
Unfortunatly the boating public only consumes a very small percentage of gas compared to the general public, and are plights are not well heard YET, but with the newspaper and the media catching on to this we might be heard. But I find it hard to believe they would go back to MBTE.
Keep Smilin
-
Fred Phinney
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Jul 5th, '06, 15:26
WSJ/Enthanol
Walter,
As you're the one that really lit the fuse (no pun intended) on our plight and got WSJ's attention, for which we all thank you, do you suggest our main cry should just be just give us "navgas" and not focus on the damage(s) done, expense(s) incurred and the possiblities of a big time class action suit. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that all of our respective conversations with the gentleman from the WSJ should be basically in concert. In other words he's talking to the whole chorus, not just a soloist, and we all singing the same tune!
Fred Phinney[/u]
As you're the one that really lit the fuse (no pun intended) on our plight and got WSJ's attention, for which we all thank you, do you suggest our main cry should just be just give us "navgas" and not focus on the damage(s) done, expense(s) incurred and the possiblities of a big time class action suit. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that all of our respective conversations with the gentleman from the WSJ should be basically in concert. In other words he's talking to the whole chorus, not just a soloist, and we all singing the same tune!
Fred Phinney[/u]
-
In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
Fred-I wrote a long response to answer you and this new site seems to time you out so that when I hit "submit" it damned asked me to sign in! I'm so frustrated I could throw the computer against the wall! Can't do it again tonight. Long story short...the public safety issue will turn heads. They did it for the private aviation industry because planes crash and kill people.
Fear of legal issues as a result of exposing the baloney sold to the American public by the Ethanol lobby is important. That's why National exposure by the WSJ is important. More important that we don't seem self-serving on this issue. Yes, it's done a number on us financially, but between the tank leakage, engine damage, fuel contamination, breakdowns, etc. Congress has endangered the American boating public. It's an election year. They may not have known they did it...but now they will.
Documenting it in a meaningful National publication like the WSJ will expose the problem and legally document it. NOW it becomes ammunition in future legal cases. We let the Genie out of the bottle! Fear of class action suits as a result of this may get us the attention of even other media.
Fear of legal issues as a result of exposing the baloney sold to the American public by the Ethanol lobby is important. That's why National exposure by the WSJ is important. More important that we don't seem self-serving on this issue. Yes, it's done a number on us financially, but between the tank leakage, engine damage, fuel contamination, breakdowns, etc. Congress has endangered the American boating public. It's an election year. They may not have known they did it...but now they will.
Documenting it in a meaningful National publication like the WSJ will expose the problem and legally document it. NOW it becomes ammunition in future legal cases. We let the Genie out of the bottle! Fear of class action suits as a result of this may get us the attention of even other media.
"Be careful what you wish for"
should be the title on my comment here. If everyone goes telling the WSJ that fiberglass tanks in Berts and Hatties have issues with ethanol it may come out in print slightly differently, such as:
"Bertram and Hatteras owners say their boats are incompatible with the new gas leading to serious saftey issues."
That would not be good thing for the valuation of any of our boats! You can bet a large percentage of the readers are not going to "get it" that the potential tank problem has an easy, if expensive solution.
You can also bet that every insurance company in the world is going to say "Gee you have one of those ethanol-incompatible Bertrams. I don't think we are going to pay your claims!"
I would suggest that those interviewed focus instead on more universal problems. Problems like the issues with phase separation which effects all vehicles, but boats more due to their open venting of the fuel tank to a moist air environment; the fact that boats tend to have huge fuel tanks; and the fact that the fuel my sit unused for long periods of time in a boat, all the while sucking up moisture.
Phase separation effects all boats. Not just Berts and Hatties. It can occur just as easily in a stainless tank or an aluminum tank. Add that when phase separation occurs the water/ethanol puddle in the bottom of the tank is basically E-85 which is corrosive to lots of different materials like aluminum, brass, zinc, cork, plastics ect. And since it is basically E-85 most motors would start and run on the stuff, allowing the damage to extend throughout the engine. Almost any boat in existance would have issues if phase separation occured and went un-corrected for any length of time.
And the problems with ethanol scouring up all the old varnishes and gunk from older tanks. That is a problem that can effect any older vehicle be it boats, cars, tractors, what have you.
THEN if you want to talk about the POSSIBILITY that SOME fiberglass tanks may not be compatible, but no one seems to know how to tell which ones...that makes sense. (And what about all those fiberglass tanks in the ground used at gas stations?) Then the fiberglass tank problem becomes an additional concern adjunct to the main thrust which is:
This stuff effects all vehicles, but for boaters it can be a serious safety issue.
BTW I don't think that the oil companies would go back to using MTBE, but they could use ETBE which ironicly is made from ethanol. The legislative path to do so is open as of this fall, the EPA no longer specifically requiring ethanol after that date, however the tax incentives still remain.
Also since the ethanol is splash-blended right in the delivery trucks at the tank farm, it would be easy to make Navgas. Just leave out the ethanol ,and replace it with ETBE when the delivery happens to be going to a marina. Or shoot, just get the oil companies to re-name some percentage of their Avgas product Navgas and deliver that. The prohibition on putting Avgas in vehicles other than airplanes is simply a tax issue, not a compatibility issue.
And since you guys are going to be talking to a WSJ reporter, how about asking him how much the big oil companies are investing in corn fields, ethanol production facilities, and distribution infrastructure? If the answer is very little, why? Could it be they don't see a long term future in ethanol?
Peter
should be the title on my comment here. If everyone goes telling the WSJ that fiberglass tanks in Berts and Hatties have issues with ethanol it may come out in print slightly differently, such as:
"Bertram and Hatteras owners say their boats are incompatible with the new gas leading to serious saftey issues."
That would not be good thing for the valuation of any of our boats! You can bet a large percentage of the readers are not going to "get it" that the potential tank problem has an easy, if expensive solution.
You can also bet that every insurance company in the world is going to say "Gee you have one of those ethanol-incompatible Bertrams. I don't think we are going to pay your claims!"
I would suggest that those interviewed focus instead on more universal problems. Problems like the issues with phase separation which effects all vehicles, but boats more due to their open venting of the fuel tank to a moist air environment; the fact that boats tend to have huge fuel tanks; and the fact that the fuel my sit unused for long periods of time in a boat, all the while sucking up moisture.
Phase separation effects all boats. Not just Berts and Hatties. It can occur just as easily in a stainless tank or an aluminum tank. Add that when phase separation occurs the water/ethanol puddle in the bottom of the tank is basically E-85 which is corrosive to lots of different materials like aluminum, brass, zinc, cork, plastics ect. And since it is basically E-85 most motors would start and run on the stuff, allowing the damage to extend throughout the engine. Almost any boat in existance would have issues if phase separation occured and went un-corrected for any length of time.
And the problems with ethanol scouring up all the old varnishes and gunk from older tanks. That is a problem that can effect any older vehicle be it boats, cars, tractors, what have you.
THEN if you want to talk about the POSSIBILITY that SOME fiberglass tanks may not be compatible, but no one seems to know how to tell which ones...that makes sense. (And what about all those fiberglass tanks in the ground used at gas stations?) Then the fiberglass tank problem becomes an additional concern adjunct to the main thrust which is:
This stuff effects all vehicles, but for boaters it can be a serious safety issue.
BTW I don't think that the oil companies would go back to using MTBE, but they could use ETBE which ironicly is made from ethanol. The legislative path to do so is open as of this fall, the EPA no longer specifically requiring ethanol after that date, however the tax incentives still remain.
Also since the ethanol is splash-blended right in the delivery trucks at the tank farm, it would be easy to make Navgas. Just leave out the ethanol ,and replace it with ETBE when the delivery happens to be going to a marina. Or shoot, just get the oil companies to re-name some percentage of their Avgas product Navgas and deliver that. The prohibition on putting Avgas in vehicles other than airplanes is simply a tax issue, not a compatibility issue.
And since you guys are going to be talking to a WSJ reporter, how about asking him how much the big oil companies are investing in corn fields, ethanol production facilities, and distribution infrastructure? If the answer is very little, why? Could it be they don't see a long term future in ethanol?
Peter
-
In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
-
Fred Phinney
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Jul 5th, '06, 15:26
My meet with WSJ reporter
Sorry for delay in filing my report re: meeting with Rob Tomsho but business all of a sudden got in the way of boating. Spent several hours with him last Wednesday including a Bertram25 boat ride and lunch. In response to your well directed comments Peter, I did stress strongly the safety issues of ethanol and its effects on fibre glass storage tanks of all shapes, sizes and uses. I did point out, however, that ethanol was proving to be the culprit in the deterioration of fuel tanks in boats causing them to leak creating a very serious safety issue and also suggested that perhaps this is also happening in large fibreglass tanks at gas stations etc. Introduced him to the Brewers Stirling Harbor Yacht Yard manager who was most happy to reinforce my comments and also pointed out that Brewers corporate had sent out a mass mailing to all of their slip rental tenants about the hazards of ethanol. I felt the meeting went well with Tomsho. He duly noted my "temporary fix" of red plastic outboard fuel tanks on my boat and thought it a very clever idea although I quickly pointed out that it was far from a satisfactory solution to the problem. Perhaps I'm being very naive but I think he has a good grasp of the ethanol problem in general and "our" problem with it in particular. We should know soon as I was told the story should break the latter part of this week on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Here's hoping!
Fred Phinney
Fred Phinney
-
Fred Phinney
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Jul 5th, '06, 15:26
My meet with WSJ reporter
Sorry for delay in filing my report re: meeting with Rob Tomsho but business all of a sudden got in the way of boating. Spent several hours with him last Wednesday including a Bertram25 boat ride and lunch. In response to your well directed comments Peter, I did stress strongly the safety issues of ethanol and its effects on fibre glass storage tanks of all shapes, sizes and uses. I did point out, however, that ethanol was proving to be the culprit in the deterioration of fuel tanks in boats causing them to leak creating a very serious safety issue and also suggested that perhaps this is also happening in large fibreglass tanks at gas stations etc. Introduced him to the Brewers Stirling Harbor Yacht Yard manager who was most happy to reinforce my comments and also pointed out that Brewers corporate had sent out a mass mailing to all of their slip rental tenants about the hazards of ethanol. I felt the meeting went well with Tomsho. He duly noted my "temporary fix" of red plastic outboard fuel tanks on my boat and thought it a very clever idea although I quickly pointed out that it was far from a satisfactory solution to the problem. Perhaps I'm being very naive but I think he has a good grasp of the ethanol problem in general and "our" problem with it in particular. We should know soon as I was told the story should break the latter part of this week on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Here's hoping!
Fred Phinney
Fred Phinney
-
Fred Phinney
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Jul 5th, '06, 15:26
WSJ and Enthanol
If there's nothing in the Wall Street Journal today I'll give reporter Rob Tomsho an email jog and see if he has any idea of the status of his story.
Fred Phinney
Fred Phinney
Rob Tomsho and I played a bit of phone tag while I was on vacation. We did finally get around to talking and as mentioned he was well informed on the problem. He mentioned he would send an e-mail with a copy of the article when it came out.
I would be leary to have Marina's sell Avgas, sounds like a good way to charge more then the four bucks a gallon they are getting over here now. Maybe it can be called "plain gas". (pun intended)
New tank is in and I seem to be running decent, only problem I have now is I need to run 10+ miles to get fuel as my local gas dock is passing out lots of water with the gas, or so it seems. Handfull of guys at the marina run over to dock only to be towed back due to water. Oh it don't end.
I would be leary to have Marina's sell Avgas, sounds like a good way to charge more then the four bucks a gallon they are getting over here now. Maybe it can be called "plain gas". (pun intended)
New tank is in and I seem to be running decent, only problem I have now is I need to run 10+ miles to get fuel as my local gas dock is passing out lots of water with the gas, or so it seems. Handfull of guys at the marina run over to dock only to be towed back due to water. Oh it don't end.
-
mike ohlstein
- Site Admin
- Posts: 2394
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 11:39
- Location: So many things seem like no-brainers until you run into someone with no brain.
- Contact:
-
Fred Phinney
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Jul 5th, '06, 15:26
-
In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
Gentlemen:
There is another prominent and very credible boating publication that is presently doing an article regarding the tanks/ethanol/black goo issue. I am not mentioning its name (perhaps some of you have heard from them by now anyway) because it would be inappropiate to deluge them with emails from you.
I have a B-28 and talked with the editor today (8/18). He's very interested in talking with Bert owners who have first-hand issues as the result of ethanol. If you're willing, please reply on this thread, and I'll forward to the editor.
Sorry about trying to keep this under control....I know the problem is widespread, not only with older Bert owners, but also with Hatts, Vikes, etc. I'm just trying to protect an overload of his email box.
Kind regards,
Oz
There is another prominent and very credible boating publication that is presently doing an article regarding the tanks/ethanol/black goo issue. I am not mentioning its name (perhaps some of you have heard from them by now anyway) because it would be inappropiate to deluge them with emails from you.
I have a B-28 and talked with the editor today (8/18). He's very interested in talking with Bert owners who have first-hand issues as the result of ethanol. If you're willing, please reply on this thread, and I'll forward to the editor.
Sorry about trying to keep this under control....I know the problem is widespread, not only with older Bert owners, but also with Hatts, Vikes, etc. I'm just trying to protect an overload of his email box.
Kind regards,
Oz
-
In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests