Cockpit Sole Replacement Question

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 20th, '07, 09:18

OK guys I know this one has been covered before but I still have a couple of questions. I would like to use a composite for coring but I keep hearing "not recommended for warm Southern climates"....what's up with that?

"IF" I end up using a plywood core, what's the best wood to use, fir? I can't make myself use pine, too many bad experiences with the rot....even with epoxy laminates. Which is all I use by the way.

Weight is an issue, and I only want to do this ONCE.

thuddddddd · Post by **thuddddddd** » Jun 20th, '07, 09:33

Drop dan (34hatt) a note. He's using some fancy stuff up here. Likes it better than nidacore, or try CMP or if you really want the answer Capt Pat or Bruce.

alano · Post by **alano** » Jun 20th, '07, 09:56

I used 3/4" nidacore panels that were laminated with glass on both sides, expoxied them to a 2x2 FRP square tube webbing and covered with Nautolex on the 35. Think the panels were under 250 ea or so, used 3 - FRP tube was around 300 total. So far I'm happy with everything but the Nautolex, I didn't take my time, only real issue was building the sandwich for mounting the chair. Haven't seen any heat related problems (was more concerned with water intrusion at screw holes and freezing), of course you're much closer to the sun. If you need more info feel free to contact me. Alan.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 20th, '07, 13:07

Scot,

Hands down, Coosa Board is what I'd use... The factory is located in Alabama. I also use it for bulkhead replacement when the panel is going to be tabbed into the hull at bilge level & for coring my consoles. Far lighter than plywood, never rot, higher density than Klegecel or Dininycel, no voids like NidaCore.

Br,

Patrick

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jun 20th, '07, 15:16

Cap't Pat... What do you coat the insides and outsides with when you use it as console coring?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 20th, '07, 15:45

The outer shell is fiberglass & molded from a 2 part mold. After that cures, I bed the core in, (takes 6 fitted pieces), and cover the core with a layer of 1208 biaxle fabric. All done before removing the console from the mold...

Br,

Patric

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jun 20th, '07, 16:38

Thanks Cap't... So if I wanted to make a one off bait station I could fabricate it with the Coosa board, and coat it with glass?

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jun 20th, '07, 17:02

Yup, but there's a couple of "tricks of the trade" that I can share after I get back from Panama. Gettin' down to the wire & I leave here tomorrow morning...

Br,

Patrick

ianupton · Post by **ianupton** » Jun 20th, '07, 19:16

Scot,

Give them (Coosa) a call. They will send you a 'sample' package. Not enough stuff to do anything with, but you will get an idea of the product.

I suppose you could lay some glass on it to see how it adheres, etc.

Ian.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 20th, '07, 19:27

Scot: I made my decks out of fir marine plywood coated on all 6 sides with epoxy and with glass cloth on the deck side. I painted it with Awlgrip nonskid (which I love!). Its not a light, but it was cheaper. I made a template for the hatches out of masonite and used a router with a spiral carbide bit and guide collar to cut them out. By sizing the collar and bit properly I was able to use the cutout for the hatch. I used Taco aluminum hatch trim around them. I used 1" x 6" fir to make a gutter. i routed a groove in it with a top bearing bowl cutter bit. it worked well! The hinges and latches were routed in flush.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 20th, '07, 21:34

Thanks Guys..

thereheis · Post by **thereheis** » Jun 21st, '07, 05:48

coosa board is the cats ass .....lots less expence as far as having to buy all the matt and resin and lay up time also..it's already made up .cut pattern copy it to coosa board and cut,it works great.....

phil

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jun 21st, '07, 08:13

I have never worked with Coosa board but from the literature on it and these recommendations it seems to be a great all around material. Will wait for Capt Pat's additional info when he returns.

I want to build a swim platform and some other things for "Phoenix", but am unsure of using some of the man made materials because of sunlight degradation, repeated stress causing delam or other failures, compatibility with coatings and adhesives, etc. Every mfgr's web site seems to say their stuff is the best, and I am trying to build up a knowledge base so when I start I will have one (or more than one if necessary) selected systems to use.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 21st, '07, 09:20

Raweigh,

You love the non-skid paint?? I put some non-skid in a boat once and could never keep it clean. Looking very closely the paint would wear off the top of each little piece of grit and dirt would settle around the base of each little piece of grit. It made a good functional surface but I hated it because of the constant nasty look. But it wasn't the Awlgrip stuff. Is it hard to keep clean?

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Jun 22nd, '07, 10:47

Scot: Six years out and it still looks great. Granted it doesn't get the hardest use. I think it depends on how lean the paint mix is compared to the grit. I've seen what you are talking about, but mine looks good. When the paint guy was cleaning up he scraped some 4200 off with his knife blade! I almost died when I saw him do that, but he assured me it was fine. No marks. If it doesn't look bright enough I just hit it with some soft scrub with bleach!! I used a mix of medium and coarse grit (I think) from US Paint. Very uniform and nice looking. Mine stays in a boathouse, and that may make a difference in how long it lasts before wear through though.

Vince Luciani · Post by **Vince Luciani** » Jun 22nd, '07, 12:12

I've been following this thread closely since I am ready to paint my new decks. I had solid teak decks, but I opted to go back with epoxy/1708 biaxial fabric (on both sides) over marine 3/4" plywood. It appears plenty strong and watertight. I may bandsaw and plane my teak planks and laminate them to my deck this winter but I'm not sure.

Rawleigh I'm glad to hear that your awlgrip with non-skid is working out because that was what I was planning to go with.

Scot, what other non-skid alternatives are there?

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 22nd, '07, 16:17

Vince,

There are several different "grits" avaible that you add to basically any paint to create the non-skid. They can be made from tiny ground up hard plastics, sand, ground up walnut shell, etc. There's a bunch of stuff out there for this. I'm glad to hear Raweigh's worked...my was not good, but the boat was kept near a pine tree! They cover everything with black and brown stains. Once completed my Bertram will only leave the covered slip for cruising, fishing and bottom jobs. No more yard ornaments for me.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jun 22nd, '07, 16:25

Sorry Vince,

I may not have given the answer you were looking for.

"Scot, what other non-skid alternatives are there?"

I'm not sure what else you can do other than add stuff to paint. I will say I prefer a smooth cockpit deck + TOPSIDERS. My current boat has all the non-skid removed and I tell anyone coming out with to wear Topsiders. If a deck is completely smooth and wet, then it's hard to beat the grip of a pair of Sperrys. Although I hear that Teak is a great deck, I see guys in pictures all the time running around wet teak decks with bare feet...must grip well.

To me there's nothing worst than most OEM fiberglass checker patterns. They would be better off leaving it smooth. Again....Sperrys. Actually it's not the brand Sperry that works so well it's the sipped sole, found on most REAL boat shoes.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jul 11th, '07, 10:37

CaptPatrick wrote:...there's a couple of "tricks of the trade" that I can share after I get back from Panama

Frank,

As a follow up to your bait station with Coosa Board:

This will also apply to most substrates, such as Divinycel, Klegecel, & even plywood.

Prep: Material must be dry & free of dust or other contaminates. Clean with compressed air & denatured alcohol or acetone.

Coat all bonding surfaces with catalized resin, (polyester, vinylester, or epoxy), making sure that the resin has been forced into the porosity of the material. Wipe away any excess resin & allow to cure until tacky.

Layup: The first layer of fiberglass, called the skin layer, is the most important layer. This is usually done with chopped strand mat, either 3/4 or 1 1/2 oz. Make sure that this layer is well wetted with the resin of choice and has no bubbles.

Subsequent layers should be laid within 12 - 24 hours of the previous layer to achieve a cross linking of molecules. This is primarily when using polyester or vinylester. Epoxy, being a true adhesive, is less dependant on cross linking, but a stronger bond will be achieved even with epoxy if cross linking takes place.

After the skin layer, you can lay up to 3 layers of glass at once. More than 3 layers will often create too much heat & cure too fast. Too much heat can lead to excessive shrinkage & warping.

Fabrication: Fabrication of multiple pieces, (sides, top, bottom, etc.), can be fitted & assembled in much the same way as you would do for cabinetry. It is usually advantageous to lay up the skin layer before cutting the various elements. It's easier & faster to get a good skin layer on a large flat surface than trying to work on/in an assembled unit.

Super glue & accelerator can often be used to tack weld parts together. You can also use screws or nails that will be totally encapsulated within the layup.

Once your fabrication is assembled, create a generous fillet on all inside corners and round over all external corners. This will allow subsequent layers to transition onto the unit easily & create a stronger joint. You cannot lay fiberglass into or over sharp angle changes without air pockets. (See: Fillet Tips)

Finishing your project will be the standard sanding, fairing, and finishing coats of paint or gelcoat.

NOTE: When working with vinylester or epoxy layups, each cured layer MUST be thoroughly sanded or ground BEFORE another layer can be laid...

Br,

Patrick

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 11th, '07, 12:12

Thanks Patrick...

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jul 11th, '07, 21:50

Thanks Captain!

You da man!

Will see if I can get a sample of Coosa Board and start playing with it..

Am almost done trimming out my house.. promised the bride that I will get the house done before I start serious work on the boat! She has been patient for 2 1/2 years, but don't want to push my luck. Otherwise I might have to sleep on the boat full time!

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 11th, '07, 21:56

Good luck getting the sample...I spoke with them 2 weeks ago and they told me they would get me a sample right out, I'm still watching the mail~~~~business must be good!

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jul 19th, '07, 08:53

Scot...

I called them last week.. spoke with Jennifer Donaldson, Marketing Director, asked her for some samples, and received yesterday the sample pack she promised. It looks like very interesting stuff! I have some serious delamination of the aft cabin bulkhead in my B33 FBC.. a common problem.. and was going to use plywood, but now I will use the Coosa Board. Will seal it per Capt Pat's instructions above, remove the inside skin of the bulkhead and cut back the rotted stuff until I get to solid material, square it off, and replace it with the Coosa Board, laminating it to the outer skin. I am planning on redoing the whole cabin interior with mahogany veneered plywood anyway, so the inner skin removal won't be a problem.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jul 19th, '07, 09:06

Capt Pat...

Per my above note to Scot... I have some Coosa Board samples. It looks like a great all around material to replace plywood!

Have read your instructions above, but now have another question.. The stuff seems so strong, why the need to laminate so many layers of glass/resin to it? I can see that it should be sealed, and maybe another layer of resin to make the surface smooth in preparation for painting, but unless I am making structural bulkheads or hatch covers, why the need to make it so much more strong?

Also, for exterior corners.. rounding them off will remove some of the resin/glass fabric that was laminated to the flat materials.. how do you treat these surfaces prior to painting?

Hope I am not beating this subject to death.. it seems like a sort of universal material and I want to be sure I am preparing and using it properly.

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 20th, '07, 20:22

I'm glad someone got a sample, they never sent mine....I wonder if they will sell Coosa board to me?

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jul 21st, '07, 12:37

Scot...

If you don't want to call them again send me an email with your address and and I will send you a couple of the pieces they sent me.

IRGuy@aol.com

Frank

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Jul 21st, '07, 17:25

Since this stuff is so good is there any thickness suitable for the replacement of my rotten cockpit sole? :

scot · Post by **scot** » Jul 21st, '07, 20:28

Thanks but I'll call them again. Companies can't get any better if they don't know they are screw'in up.

I have been wondering on the thickness myself??? 1"+ 1/4" glass would be the best for me if that's enough??? Unsupported spans are close on my boat.

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Jul 21st, '07, 21:28

Frank wrote:The stuff seems so strong, why the need to laminate so many layers of glass/resin to it? I can see that it should be sealed, and maybe another layer of resin to make the surface smooth in preparation for painting, but unless I am making structural bulkheads or hatch covers, why the need to make it so much more strong?

Also, for exterior corners.. rounding them off will remove some of the resin/glass fabric that was laminated to the flat materials.. how do you treat these surfaces prior to painting?

Frank,

The total number of layers of 1 1/2 oz mat you should use, for below decks bulkheads, will 2 per side... Properly wet and rolled out, each exterior skin would be about 1/16".

Rounded corners and edges can be just primed & filled with thickened resin, then painted with the rest.

Scot wrote:I have been wondering on the thickness myself??? 1"+ 1/4" glass would be the best for me if that's enough???

Scot & Bill,

3/4" will be fine for deck thickness, and a #26, (#2600). density for Coosa Board would be the density. Use 3 layers of 1 1/2 oz mat per side for your layups.

There is another product available, nearly identical to Coosa Board, called Thermo-Lite Board. It's manufactured by Space Age Synthetics in North Dakota. While shipping costs would possibly be greater than a closer source for Coosa Board, you can order directly from Space Age & online to boot...

Br,

Patrick

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Jul 22nd, '07, 06:53

Scot...

No problem. I am surprised that you did not hear back from them.. Jennifer was very co-operative and had some good info. The kit she sent me had about 8 - 6"x6" pieces of several thicknesses of the Nautical and Bluewater grades. The stuff seems so light compared to plywood I am having some mental second guesses about using it. She said in one forum that a good rule to apply is to use the same thickness of Coosa Board as you would use standard plywood for the same application. Being about 40-60% the weight of plywood it seems strange though to use something so light. I guess I am too much of a traditionalist. At least mentally!

Capt Pat...

Thanks again.. I am looking into how I can buy some.. I have a "semi direct" connection with Paxtons, and am looking for other sources easier for me to use. Will also look at the alternate material/source you mention above.

bertram31.com

Cockpit Sole Replacement Question

Cockpit Sole Replacement Question

sole

Who is online