Side Window Replacement

kezman5 · Post by **kezman5** » Jul 20th, '23, 08:14

Hello all,
I was wondering if anyone has up to date information on replacement side window frames. I need to replace the old ones on my B31 and wanted to see what options are out there. Unfortunately I'm not in a position to spend $11K plus at this point, I would appreciate and advice/information.

Thanks,
Marty

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 20th, '23, 21:38

Not sure if you are handy or want to take on a project, but the links below will give you some ideas of what can be done. Unfortunately the window kit is not available anymore, but you can still build your own frame.

https://bertram31.com/proj/tips/windows/index.html
https://bertram31.com/proj/tips/window.htm
https://bertram31.com/parts/side_windows/index.html
https://bertram31.com/parts/side_windows/install.htm

There are frames available, take a look at Look Out Window Website.

https://www.boatwindowframes.com/our-team/broadus/

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Jul 22nd, '23, 08:00

For my old B31, the Anna E., I made my own frames out of 1/4” marine ply covered in f’glass cloth and had plexiglass windows made. Low dollars, not too much work, and they looked great and we’re holding up fine when I sold the boat. I’m sure there’s a thread on here somewhere showing the windows. Just a low dollar thought

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Jul 22nd, '23, 15:20

it comes down to how much of a project do you want for yourself and do you want to keep sliding side windows

sliders- im not sure who makes those
frames and one piece glass- you can make them from many kinds of materials, PVC, wood, coosa, etc
and you can find somewhat drop in aluminum versions

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jul 22nd, '23, 22:46

Greenhouse effect; (n): what is observed in a 31 cabin when there are no sliding side windows...

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 23rd, '23, 00:11

Hyannis

That's why you install curtains.

Snipe · Post by **Snipe** » Jul 23rd, '23, 08:32

Made my frames out of coosa board it worked out great they don’t slide but if I open bow hatch and door it fine in the cabin. I didn’t install ac yet maybe next year.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Jul 23rd, '23, 10:33

A little more heat versus unobtainable windows that probably leak

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Jul 23rd, '23, 11:30

Cooler climate up here but it still gets hot at times. We replaced the old sliders with solid glass and like it. When it gets warm we open the forward hatch and the companionway door which provides great airflow. Our issue can be radiant heat in the afternoon so I cut a piece of reflectorized bubble material, comes in a 10’ roll don’t remember what it’s called. The solid glass lives in the outside channel and the reflector stuff is stiff enough to fit into the inside channel. It will fit in either window depending on our orientation to the sun and makes a huge difference. I put my hand on it and it’s warm. Without it that heat would be in the cabin.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 24th, '23, 00:02

Doug

It was probably Trust Reflectrix. Use to be sold at Lowe's. Not sure if they still handle it. It is a division of Sealed Air the Bubble wrap company.

trace elements · Post by **trace elements** » Jul 24th, '23, 10:57

I would like to build new window frames, but will probably end up refurbishing the aluminum window frames.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 24th, '23, 22:00

Doug

Did you cut the frame to get the solid sheet of glass in the track? I have seen it suggested to cut the frame at the forward and back end and bend it down enough to insert the glass. Have not gotten brave enough to do it.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Jul 24th, '23, 22:48

Tony-I had it done by a marine glass professional. They removed the old plexi sliders, undid the bracket in the upper forward corner then removed the old fasteners and took the frame out. I don’t know if that open corner is original design or if it was cut in later to allow replacement of the glass. If it would help I can take an image tomorrow and post it. Right now we’re sitting on the boat at the dock in the rain at Van Isle Marina, Sidney BC so that would be easy enough.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 25th, '23, 20:19

Doug

Would be interesting to see how they made the cut. Thanks.

Rain ugh. We just went from drought to flood warnings in less than a month. We just get a ton of rain all at once. It seems to happen several times a week since the start of July.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Jul 26th, '23, 17:42

View through the solid glass side window

Corner window frame cut. The machine screws go into a custom bracket that secures the corner.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 26th, '23, 22:24

Doug

That cut was made to put the glass in. Mine does not have that cut in the frame or the machine screws.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jul 26th, '23, 22:25

To me, the biggest problem, by far, is the heat generated inside the cabin by the aluminum frames.

Exposed to the summer sun, these thick frames become untouchable and spread their heat inside the already hot cabin.
I only wish there were some type of material, paint or otherwise, that I could cover the exterior surfaces with to minimize the problem.
I was so desperate at a point that I was ready to cut and glue-on the outside any type of construction insulation foam.
And NO, the curtains are no help at all. They may stop the direct sun rays but do nothing to stop the radiant heat.
If anybody has any idea, absurd or not, Im ready to hear it.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Jul 27th, '23, 04:11

Maybe perforated canvas like phifertex that snaps on. It allows you to see out and keeps some heat off. Maybe get a piece and just temporary fasten it to see if it works for you before having it made. It also offers some privacy if you have clear side windows

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 27th, '23, 05:52

Yannis-

The material Raybo mentioned sounds like a great idea to see out and offer some chill.

I have a canvas wrap for my front windows, even in black it keeps the inside cooler, frames and all. Mine is held on with several snaps. A quick n temporary trial I could see velcro strips working.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Jul 27th, '23, 09:54

my old boss had the perforated canvas on his 36 Trojan.
from across the way it looked like it had no front windows and from inside the boat you could see out perfectly clear

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jul 27th, '23, 10:28

Raybo, Carl,

I already have this snapped on permanently.
I also have a triangular canvas attached over the bow area so that there is air flow under it.
Even with these, the frame is untouchable...

There has to be an insulation material of some sort glued or velcroed directly on the frame.
The sun here is merciless.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Jul 27th, '23, 11:10

Yannis wrote: ↑Jul 27th, '23, 10:28 Raybo, Carl,

I already have this snapped on permanently.

Even with these, the frame is untouchable...

There has to be an insulation material of some sort glued or velcroed directly on the frame.

If this product is not stopping enough of the suns rays at 50% blockage, bump it up a step to solid fabric covering the frame with the perf fabric just covering the windows.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Jul 27th, '23, 14:25

is the fabric white or light colored?
is the aluminum anodized, black, white?

maybe try putting some white stripe vinyl over the frame to see if it helps or solid fabric strip?

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Jul 27th, '23, 16:30

Carl, Raybo, thank you for your proposals.

Aluminum is the best heat conductor.
Even if the sun rays NEVER hit it, it manages to absorb all the surrounding heat from the environment.
As an example, I have two lounge chairs on the deck that have an aluminum frame. The deck is protected from direct sunlight, yet, when you seat on them you feel almost uncomfortable from the heat they give off.

Similarly, the aluminum window frames, protected as they are from this perforated material, plus the additional awning that is suspended over the bow area, are absorbing so much heat that are so hot you can barely touch from the inside for a second or two, before you start screaming.

My understanding is that the alu frame has to be completely insulated, not only from direct sunlight - that part is easy to understand - but also from the heat of the atmosphere.
There has to be a material that will stick directly on the frame so as to completely seal off the surrounding heat, let alone the direct sun. And all this, without turning a classic boat into an aesthetically ridiculous make up.

The canvas, or fabric, or vinyl might stop the direct sun rays, but once these materials will heat up they will automatically transmit their heat to the adjacent alu frame with the known result.

The alu frame is the stock 28 window frame, silver in color and probably anodized.

Maybe somebody from Florida or a similarly hot environment could have a solution....

PS: I have two thermometers in the cabin, one away from the windows and another close to the front window. They are 7oC apart at any given time, if this is telling you something...

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Jul 28th, '23, 23:36

Amberjack wrote: ↑Jul 26th, '23, 17:42 View through the solid glass side window

Corner window frame cut. The machine screws go into a custom bracket that secures the corner.

Doug

I take that back, got to the boat today and there is a seam there with 4 screws in the frame. My seam seems much tighter than yours so they may have used that point to get the glass out.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Aug 6th, '23, 13:05

This is what we use on hot sunny days when the sun comes at us from the side. It’s an all or nothing device but it makes a substantial difference when we deploy it. Most of the time it lives under the forward berth.

Yannis, when it was up a couple days ago I did a bare hand temperature check. The frame was cool but the screen itself was warm. Without it we would have been driven out of the cabin.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 7th, '23, 20:39

Doug

Also it acts as a privacy screen when you docked up with other boats on the Port and Starboard. Good idea.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 10th, '23, 00:27

Doug,

Thanks. I also have a permanent sheet of this material on the rear (non opening) starboard window, as this is the window exposed to the west in most places I visit.

However, the problem area is the front window’s thick frames, especially that part between the top (permanent) and lower (opening) section. This part gets real hot and contributes to the heat inside the cabin.

Any solution to this problem has to tackle the frame itself and not the total window surface, as it would block daylight and the view which I need...

Im not sure if it has to be applied on the outside or the inside, I tend to believe the inside might be more effective.
I cant believe that nobody in Florida has ever experienced the heat that this frame gives off...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 10th, '23, 06:31

Yannis-

I am sure Floridians are familiar with the heat and tackle with AC, windshield coverings or removal.

My guess is frames need to be shielded from the suns rays from the outside.

Alum is a fantastic heat conductor...heat the outside frame in the Suns Rays, it will get hotter than the surrounding air. Now that heat passes to the inside. Your aluminum frames are basically working as a Heat Sink. Think electronics, like the CPU in your computer, it will have an alum block mounted to it with fins and a fan off the back to pull the heat away from the circuitry.
https://directmacro.com/hp-719556-001.h ... 78ab6f4db6

The other thing is alum transfers heat very well...I'll go in the other direction. Pick up a piece of wood at 0 degrees in the winter, it will feel kinda like everything else, cold. Now pick up a chunk of Alum, it will feel colder as the alum sucks the heat out of your hands. In your boat. the alum frames transfer all the heat to your hand once you touch it very quickly making it feel hotter than it actually is...which can be very hot.

...just my best guess and trying to explain what I think to myself, openly. I guess this is just a way of covering my hindquarters if I'm wrong. But my seat of the pants thought is it would be best not to allow the alum frame to heat up in the first place, and also reduce the sun rays on the windows so they do not heat up and transfer heat.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 10th, '23, 19:22

Carl,

It’s NOT only the sun rays, this frame absorbs heat from the environment even when it’s not even exposed to the sun...
Like I said before, this thing is untouchable while already covered by this perforated shade PLUS an awning suspended over the bow area (with a bungy rope system envied by ...NASA) !

As I was looking around the boat, I found a roll of this foamy surface that campers place under their sleeping bags for insulation and comfort. It is made out of a green foam of approx. 1cm thick and on one side it is covered by a very thin shiny film that is supposed to repel heat or cold.
I will cut a stripe the size of the frame and experiment, Im not sure which side of the frame I should place it on as well as which side of the foam should stick on the frame and which should be visible. Also I wonder what type of glue to use so that I could remove it if I change my mind. Sicaflex is out of the question, perhaps some transparent silicone or even a spray glue that children use when sticking cardboard...oh well...

Also, if I had AC I wouldn’t need to bother with all this, would I? Also I wouldn't bother if I didn't have a boat, haha!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 10th, '23, 21:26

It does not need to be sunny n clear to get a sunburn. Direct, reflected or through a haze you can get a good sunburn. Same goes for the frame.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 10th, '23, 21:50

Yannis

I have seen Isenglass covers for the front windows. There would be a base of a material like Sunbrella that could be designed to cover the frame on the outside, with the Isenglass allowing you to see out.

Not going to be cheap, but if you own a boat you already know that.

DanielM · Post by **DanielM** » Aug 10th, '23, 23:03

Yannis,

I would think you would want to affix any insulating material to the outside to prevent heat from initially entering the aluminum heat sink Carl mentioned.

I would guess that if you have the insulation material on the inside you would just slow the dissipation from the hot aluminum. Better to not let that aluminum heat sink accumulate the BTUs.

However, I may be all wet... it might be six of one and half a dozen of the other. But I would focus on the outside.

Also there are companies that make heat insulating paint, but IDK if there would be a product that would be good in a marine environment and adhere to aluminum.

As your window frames are rectangular, perhaps find someone who could manufacture new frames out of a material that doesn’t conduct heat as well. $$$ I was also going to say fiberglass the front windows in, but you need the light and view.

And lastly, I think the odds on favorite in Florida is copious amounts of A/C. A lot of insulation short comings are managed by adding BTU capacity in the A/C.

Good luck.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 11th, '23, 02:22

Thank you Gents.

Tony, good idea but I have a sunbrella like cover already...

Danny, thanks for the insight. I will start like you propose, with that foam insulation on the outside, with the metallic film visible. I believe that it might be better with the shiny side up so as to repel the sun and the heat.
One good thing is that this metallic surface resembles a lot the existing aluminum silver color and will not be immediately visible, let alone the fact that, like I said, the whole front window is already covered with a buttoned down perforated screen which will hide the addition of the foam almost entirely.

I may additionally affix this material on the inside also.
Who knows, with this simple solution I might remove a few degrees of heat from the cabin!

For some unknown reason, the side frames are not getting all that hot; possibly because they are interrupted by the sliding windows and the window trim around them that acts as an insulator.

I have also heard of insulating paints, a friend has painted a whole roof and witnessed significant temp improvement in the rooms below. It appears to be very strong as it is even “walk on” grade. The color he chose is beige, but I guess it might also exist in silver or transparent...I’ll inquire into that too.

Off I go to find my cutter and the foam roll!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 11th, '23, 06:15

DanielM wrote: ↑Aug 10th, '23, 23:03 I would guess that if you have the insulation material on the inside you would just slow the dissipation from the hot aluminum. Better to not let that aluminum heat sink accumulate the BTUs.

Daniel said that very well.

Yannis wrote: ↑Aug 11th, '23, 02:22
Tony, good idea but I have a sunbrella like cover already...

...the whole front window is already covered with a buttoned down perforated screen

Yannis- does the perforated cover also cover the frames? OR do you have sold fabric covering the frames with the perforated stuff only on the windows?

Reason I am asking is that perforated stuff cuts down on the sun rays making it through, but it still lets the Rays through...looks like close to 50% of them.

I'll also mention this is nothing more than my best guess based on not a whole lot...

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Aug 11th, '23, 20:44

Yannis you have heat Issues outside my experience but it seems to me your best way forward is to intercept the sun energy before it reaches the aluminum frame. Something like an awning to shield the window from direct sun would be logical. Being separated from the window frame itself would allow ambient air to circulate. Of course if the ambient temperature is unbearable you are SOL.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 11th, '23, 21:55

I do, Doug, but it doesn't seem to be all that effective...

I will proceed with how I described already (with this foam insulation) and will see what happens.
Ill put up pics when I return home.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 15th, '23, 08:28

Bingo!

I touched the frame from the inside and was very hot. I decided that now is the time to run my test.

I cut a strip of the foam and placed it over the starboard front window middle part that gets the hottest, as it is exposed to the west.
I secured it in place with double sided tape, 5 vertical pieces of it, for a total length of 135 by 11 cm.
By the time I collected the little pieces of foam, the scissors etc and went back into the cabin, the frame was almost lukewarm.
Now, a few minutes later its even better!

PS I should have put the tape bits in shorter intervals as it now leaves some voids between the foam and the aluminum, but this I will do once I am back home with my ease, the point is that this little trick works.

Ill post pics in October when I’m back home...

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 15th, '23, 20:56

Yannis

Will the two-sided tape hold up to getting wet? I would doubt it unless you have some special tape. Be interested to see how long it holds up.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 15th, '23, 21:59

I was thinking about it, Tony, but only time will tell.

Water should only be the faucet water I rinse the dust off the fwd deck, but snug as this foam sits under the buttoned down perforated shade on the window I could imagine it should stay in place for the few weeks till the end of the summer. After that,I will fine tune it and place it better during the winter.

Needless to say of course that the 28 is no comparison to the 31 when it comes to defining a dry boat...LOL.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 16th, '23, 20:38

My boat is perfectly dry. I only take it out on Sunny days in flat calm seas. LOL

I wish that were true. LOL Sunday morning was a semi pucker day at Barnegat Inlet.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 17th, '23, 15:27

Tony,

When I want to frighten someone, I show them footage of yachts entering the Barnegat inlet...

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 17th, '23, 21:11

Yannis

It is not as bad as it was pre–South Jetty construction. It used to be pucker time almost all the time. Now it is only when I big swell is hitting the beach on an outgoing tide. The outer bar has is pretty shallow this year, which creates some of the fun.

Try showing your friends u tube videos of Haulover Inlet down in Florida. I still think Barnegat on a bad day will make Haulover look calm.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Aug 18th, '23, 03:04

Tony,

Type “capbreton” on you tube and enjoy.
There are also other inlets in France, some even worse than this, because there are shallows on their sides...

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Aug 18th, '23, 11:50

Yannis wrote: ↑Aug 17th, '23, 15:27 Tony,

When I want to frighten someone, I show them footage of yachts entering the Barnegat inlet...

Depoe Bay, OR. Its the only harbor on that long stretch coast so they have to use it but its an extremely tight blind dogleg entrance which always has ocean rollers. Columbia River bar gets all the coverage but Depoe Bay is much more dangerous. I thought about relocating there after retirement but decided I couldn't face the entrance as a regular diet.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 19th, '23, 00:11

Doug

That place is insane.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Aug 19th, '23, 13:37

Tony, you must have seen the clip of the USCG motor lifeboats shooting the entrance in bad weather. Yes, it is pretty crazy. If I had a marine insurance company I would never insure a boat with Depoe Bay written on the stern.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 19th, '23, 22:53

I have seen a number of videos.

Let's not give the insurance company's any ideas.