Marine Power mount problem
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
Marine Power mount problem
Got a call from a customer the other day on a 28 Bertram I repowered a little over a year ago with Marine Power 5.7 MPI's.
There was a bad metal sound I needed to check.
Well upon arrival at the boat, this is what I found.
After checking with my supplier for MP, Jerry's Marine in Ft Lauderdale as to WTF!, I was told that Marine Power contracted with the Chinese to build mounts for them.
Well like toothpaste, dog food and most all the other crap we get from cheap ass companies who are more concerned with a few more bucks in their pockets than putting out a quality product, this is the result.
The frigging mount rubber just came apart and the engine jumped about 4" foward screwing up a bunch of stuff including grinding the prop hub into the strut.
They sent me replacement mounts, identical this time made in the USA, installed okay.
Anyone who bought MP engines in the last few years check your mounts or call your dealer and have them check your serial number with MP to see if you have the Chinese mounts.
Don't wait till they fail, complain now.
There was a bad metal sound I needed to check.
Well upon arrival at the boat, this is what I found.
After checking with my supplier for MP, Jerry's Marine in Ft Lauderdale as to WTF!, I was told that Marine Power contracted with the Chinese to build mounts for them.
Well like toothpaste, dog food and most all the other crap we get from cheap ass companies who are more concerned with a few more bucks in their pockets than putting out a quality product, this is the result.
The frigging mount rubber just came apart and the engine jumped about 4" foward screwing up a bunch of stuff including grinding the prop hub into the strut.
They sent me replacement mounts, identical this time made in the USA, installed okay.
Anyone who bought MP engines in the last few years check your mounts or call your dealer and have them check your serial number with MP to see if you have the Chinese mounts.
Don't wait till they fail, complain now.
Last edited by Bruce on Jul 6th, '07, 05:12, edited 1 time in total.
- CaptPatrick
- Founder/Admin
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- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
JP,
Yer' pissing in the wrong direction... The pissoff belongs entirely on industries, and management, out-sourcing to KNOWN crap producers... Ya' gets what ya' gets by choosing the lowest bidder.
It's one thing to buy Chinese, knowing it's Chinese, but to buy "Made in USA" should't mean "Made in USA (with Chinese Crap)"
Br,
Patrick
Yer' pissing in the wrong direction... The pissoff belongs entirely on industries, and management, out-sourcing to KNOWN crap producers... Ya' gets what ya' gets by choosing the lowest bidder.
It's one thing to buy Chinese, knowing it's Chinese, but to buy "Made in USA" should't mean "Made in USA (with Chinese Crap)"
Br,
Patrick
Br,
Patrick
Molon labe
Patrick
Molon labe
Bought a pair of Marine Power 5.7 liters last summer before I got smart. Had the first one installed and it was all good. The second one arrived a month later and had some inconsistancies with build process. They were built about six months apart according to the stamp on the engines. One of them had polished pullies while the other had painted pullies. The counter rotating engine used different ignition system to make the engine work, IE you have two different motors. That is normal. What I did not like is the wire harnesses were totally different, including the black box and the connection port. Just a total abortion when it came to wiring. I think there were some other issues with paint and valve covers being differnent. The weather covers were two totally different styles. I was very upset with the quality and the differences and to make a long story short, they told me they could give me the updated weather cover. One engine built before Katrina and the other built after Katrina according the to build dates and you try to tell the customer you have not changed anything!!!
I have a set of year 1999 marine power 5.7's i got dirt cheap. They were submerged. Anyways when I rebuilt them i found out the bottem ends were 98 model year while the top end was 95. I had to get two different gasket sets to build one engine. Other than that they are ok and i replaced their mounts. I also know katrina did mess them up a bit they are based in louisiana.
I had a customer here locally in Great Neck NY, that used to ship out 3/4 of a truckload of air mattresses that they manufactured, twice a week, to a major medical supplier. About 2 months ago, I stopped getting the assignment to pick them up. Last week, I had a delivery for their next door neighbor, so I rang their bell to ask if we had lost the account to another carrier(which is typical in my industry). The shipper told me her boss was buying the fabric from China and it turned out to have a 90% failure ratio. Needless to say the medical supplier found another company to manufacture the mattresses and now this company is on the verge of shutting down.CaptPatrick wrote:JP,
Yer' pissing in the wrong direction... The pissoff belongs entirely on industries, and management, out-sourcing to KNOWN crap producers... Ya' gets what ya' gets by choosing the lowest bidder.
It's one thing to buy Chinese, knowing it's Chinese, but to buy "Made in USA" should't mean "Made in USA (with Chinese Crap)"
Br,
Patrick
Harv
I think alot of the crap we get from China is our own fault. We want cheap, cheaper and cheapest yet still expect quality.
Granted some of the items may be inferior but is it because China just makes inferior products or is it the manufactures who go to China wanting rock bottom pricing and are willing to cut corners to get the lowest cost.
Granted some of the items may be inferior but is it because China just makes inferior products or is it the manufactures who go to China wanting rock bottom pricing and are willing to cut corners to get the lowest cost.
Ya gets what ya pay for.
The bottom line and probably the major player in the game of cheap is Wally World. Walmart dictates to it's manufacturers the bottom line it will pay for it's products. In order for manufacturers to meet this bottom line, they either have to cut corners or flat out make an inferior product, or they can stop dealing with Walmart altogether, just as Toro did about 2 years ago. Toro refused to cut back on their quality in order to meet Walmart's pricing demands. Walmart is also probably the biggest importer of Chinese goods in the world. Unfortunately, some of the companies that compete with Walmart have to resort to the same tactics in order to survive.
The bottom line and probably the major player in the game of cheap is Wally World. Walmart dictates to it's manufacturers the bottom line it will pay for it's products. In order for manufacturers to meet this bottom line, they either have to cut corners or flat out make an inferior product, or they can stop dealing with Walmart altogether, just as Toro did about 2 years ago. Toro refused to cut back on their quality in order to meet Walmart's pricing demands. Walmart is also probably the biggest importer of Chinese goods in the world. Unfortunately, some of the companies that compete with Walmart have to resort to the same tactics in order to survive.
Harv
Well I'm just happy to be pissin at any rate..... gettin older you know not the simple task it used to be.
I agree half the problem is the Purchasing groups at these companies, they are buying on a spec. If the lowest bidder promises to meet that spec why buy anything else. They provide a kick ass sample and cheapen it up for distribution.
This is the U.S. we want to make a profit, if China is cheaper and appears to be equal we buy China.
I've seen the same issues in bearings, wire harnesses and now engine mounts.
My grandfather used to say "Cheap Jap crap" I think the phrase remains the same but the country has shifted a little west.
It's amazing the Japs can build the coolest stuff and the Chinese just suck ass trying to copy what the rest of world has done.
I agree half the problem is the Purchasing groups at these companies, they are buying on a spec. If the lowest bidder promises to meet that spec why buy anything else. They provide a kick ass sample and cheapen it up for distribution.
This is the U.S. we want to make a profit, if China is cheaper and appears to be equal we buy China.
I've seen the same issues in bearings, wire harnesses and now engine mounts.
My grandfather used to say "Cheap Jap crap" I think the phrase remains the same but the country has shifted a little west.
It's amazing the Japs can build the coolest stuff and the Chinese just suck ass trying to copy what the rest of world has done.
KR
JP
1977 RLDT "CHIMERA"
JP
1977 RLDT "CHIMERA"
- Doug Crowther
- Senior Member
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- Location: Beaufort NC & Concord,Va
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As a guy who's family runs a three generation manufacturing company that makes 99% of it's own stuff right here in the good old USA, sees the challenges and benefits first hand, and fights the pacific rim on a seemingly daily basis, all I have to say is Don't Get Me Started...
On the flip side, there are times the chinese product is appropriate. Then there are the times where I just scratch my head and ask the question "how the hell do they do it so inexpensively!" I understand when the quality is not there, but there are things that are made that are heavy, and therefore expensive to ship (right Harv?). Those are supposed to be more difficult to make competitively. But it happens. And the quality can be there too.
It is a wild, flat world out there. You have to keep moving or you will get shot. It is never simple, and the answers are not easy to find sometimes, as it is always a different problem. But you need to determine what you are good at (also always moving!), do it well, and don't give into temptations to try to do it way, way better overnight. As Vic says, the enemy of good is better. On the other hand invest in the business to always get more efficient, automate, and maintain and improve.
And be lucky.
Just one young'un's opinion. That's all it is.
Dug
On the flip side, there are times the chinese product is appropriate. Then there are the times where I just scratch my head and ask the question "how the hell do they do it so inexpensively!" I understand when the quality is not there, but there are things that are made that are heavy, and therefore expensive to ship (right Harv?). Those are supposed to be more difficult to make competitively. But it happens. And the quality can be there too.
It is a wild, flat world out there. You have to keep moving or you will get shot. It is never simple, and the answers are not easy to find sometimes, as it is always a different problem. But you need to determine what you are good at (also always moving!), do it well, and don't give into temptations to try to do it way, way better overnight. As Vic says, the enemy of good is better. On the other hand invest in the business to always get more efficient, automate, and maintain and improve.
And be lucky.
Just one young'un's opinion. That's all it is.
Dug
- thuddddddd
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1028
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 07:42
- Location: N. east Ma, home of fat teddy
{rant/on}
Dug,
They do it by paying wages that in this country wouldn't buy a carton of eggs and a gallon of milk at the end of a 15 hr day/7 day week.
You have a government that for centuries has their people being glad that they are allowed to live another day. Living in squalid conditions means nothing to a people who don't know any better which is why these dictator governments don't want their people to have access to the internet so they see how well others live and start a revolution to overthrow said dictator.
By buying overseas products, the american population whether they like it or not contributes to the enslavement of mass groups people who are just looking for a few morsels of food to survive.
Being seperated from it for thousands of miles and the lack of media coverage and the extra money it puts in our pockets makes most of the public detached and unconcerned of their plight.
Only when American has an interest in a lands resources does it get involved. Iraq anyone?
People wonder why we don't help out the genocide on the African continent. It's because they don't have anything we want.
And for all the gun control advocates out there, the way the dictator goverments get away with this is because they have disarmed their population so they are left fighting guns with pitchforks and shovels.
When you shop Walmart or any such place and buy overseas produced goods to save a few bucks, you put the American blue collar worker out of a job and contribute to the enslavement of a lands people.
{rant off}
Dug,
They do it by paying wages that in this country wouldn't buy a carton of eggs and a gallon of milk at the end of a 15 hr day/7 day week.
You have a government that for centuries has their people being glad that they are allowed to live another day. Living in squalid conditions means nothing to a people who don't know any better which is why these dictator governments don't want their people to have access to the internet so they see how well others live and start a revolution to overthrow said dictator.
By buying overseas products, the american population whether they like it or not contributes to the enslavement of mass groups people who are just looking for a few morsels of food to survive.
Being seperated from it for thousands of miles and the lack of media coverage and the extra money it puts in our pockets makes most of the public detached and unconcerned of their plight.
Only when American has an interest in a lands resources does it get involved. Iraq anyone?
People wonder why we don't help out the genocide on the African continent. It's because they don't have anything we want.
And for all the gun control advocates out there, the way the dictator goverments get away with this is because they have disarmed their population so they are left fighting guns with pitchforks and shovels.
When you shop Walmart or any such place and buy overseas produced goods to save a few bucks, you put the American blue collar worker out of a job and contribute to the enslavement of a lands people.
{rant off}
How do they do it... Govenment gets behind the Chinese companies pushing them foward, instead of on top of them holding them down like we do here in the Good ole US of A.
Toss in the below par wages paid to Chinese workers and they can under cut our prices even with shipping costs tacked on. Add to the mix the Chinese worker is just glad to work, where our work force just wants money and avoids the work, especially the manual stuff.
The mind set seems to be skip the whole learning process where one starts at the bottom and works their way up, no our new work force believes they should just start at the top, who cares if they produce.
Guess I am a bit touchy here because I have a daily issue with finding and keeping this particuliar work force. Lost a guy recently to the city, saw him last week and he was telling me how board he is at work, how good the money is and how in 20yrs he is out with pension, benefits etc.
Toss in the below par wages paid to Chinese workers and they can under cut our prices even with shipping costs tacked on. Add to the mix the Chinese worker is just glad to work, where our work force just wants money and avoids the work, especially the manual stuff.
The mind set seems to be skip the whole learning process where one starts at the bottom and works their way up, no our new work force believes they should just start at the top, who cares if they produce.
Guess I am a bit touchy here because I have a daily issue with finding and keeping this particuliar work force. Lost a guy recently to the city, saw him last week and he was telling me how board he is at work, how good the money is and how in 20yrs he is out with pension, benefits etc.
- thuddddddd
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 07:42
- Location: N. east Ma, home of fat teddy
- Capt. Mike Holmes
- Senior Member
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- Location: Freeport, Texas
- Contact:
China
And also American and Multi-national coprorations locate facilities in China because of the cheap labor, no environmental restrictions, etc. This includes builders of lareg yachts, like Marlowe.
"There is nothing quite so satisfying, as simply messing around in boats."
Bruce, Sim, so on, you have it right on the nose.
While I have not been to China (yet...) these are the stories I have been told.
The reality is that they are where we were a long time ago. Can anyone say industrial revolution???
At this time I believe that there will be change when things like the yuan revalues, etc., but that may or may not happen. Sooner, later, who knows.
In the meantime we are challenged by the workforce realities (though we are fortunate to have a good strong core force of knowledgeable hard working dedicated employees) and we are good at what we do overall.
Still, amazingly cheap wages, strong government subsidies, and a whole different world of living expectations make it pretty tough to compete!
And on this end if you break wind you need a permit, etc. On the flip side, or water is cleaner, our air is cleaner, and we were there once...
Never simple.
While I have not been to China (yet...) these are the stories I have been told.
The reality is that they are where we were a long time ago. Can anyone say industrial revolution???
At this time I believe that there will be change when things like the yuan revalues, etc., but that may or may not happen. Sooner, later, who knows.
In the meantime we are challenged by the workforce realities (though we are fortunate to have a good strong core force of knowledgeable hard working dedicated employees) and we are good at what we do overall.
Still, amazingly cheap wages, strong government subsidies, and a whole different world of living expectations make it pretty tough to compete!
And on this end if you break wind you need a permit, etc. On the flip side, or water is cleaner, our air is cleaner, and we were there once...
Never simple.
- scot
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Oct 3rd, '06, 09:47
- Location: Hurricane Alley, Texas
- Contact:
As a guy in the oil & gas industry I can tell you guys that it's China and India that have us all paying $2.75-$3.00 bucks a gallon for gas.
Fellows there's a global economic war coming to determine who gets the black gold. Everyone in these countries are starting to get scooters and cars...both need gasoline. At the recent OTC (Offshore Technology Conference) it was completely full of Chinese visitors and exibitors. They need oil and they need it badly.
It is predicted that "if" China can obtain the living standard of Mexico they will require 30% of the entire planets oil.
Sell stuff to America~~~make some money~~~~buy something to get around with that uses gas. It ain't rocket science.
It has nothing to do with actually runnning out of oil and everything to do with no enough global capacity to get it out of the ground and refined. Currently in our area (Texas Gulf Coast) over 10 Billion (with a B) is being spent to increase domestic refining capacity (does someone know something we don't?)
Here's my favorite part: Current NO exploration and or drilling/production is allowed in the following areas...
1) The entire East Coast of North America
2) The entire West Coast of North America
3) The West or East Coast of Florida
4) Most of Alaska
True indeed that we are THE ONLY industrialized nation on the planet who's domsetic oil production capacity has DECREASED in the last 10 years!....even France has increased their domestic capacity???
Energy independance anyone? Basically we have become so politically correct and green that in the coming years WE will be the ones out begging (and or fighting) for enough oil to keep our Bertrams running.
Hope we all ejoy our new Chinese built Mopeds....because that's all we will be able to afford at this pace of insanity.
Fellows there's a global economic war coming to determine who gets the black gold. Everyone in these countries are starting to get scooters and cars...both need gasoline. At the recent OTC (Offshore Technology Conference) it was completely full of Chinese visitors and exibitors. They need oil and they need it badly.
It is predicted that "if" China can obtain the living standard of Mexico they will require 30% of the entire planets oil.
Sell stuff to America~~~make some money~~~~buy something to get around with that uses gas. It ain't rocket science.
It has nothing to do with actually runnning out of oil and everything to do with no enough global capacity to get it out of the ground and refined. Currently in our area (Texas Gulf Coast) over 10 Billion (with a B) is being spent to increase domestic refining capacity (does someone know something we don't?)
Here's my favorite part: Current NO exploration and or drilling/production is allowed in the following areas...
1) The entire East Coast of North America
2) The entire West Coast of North America
3) The West or East Coast of Florida
4) Most of Alaska
True indeed that we are THE ONLY industrialized nation on the planet who's domsetic oil production capacity has DECREASED in the last 10 years!....even France has increased their domestic capacity???
Energy independance anyone? Basically we have become so politically correct and green that in the coming years WE will be the ones out begging (and or fighting) for enough oil to keep our Bertrams running.
Hope we all ejoy our new Chinese built Mopeds....because that's all we will be able to afford at this pace of insanity.
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
It is our shortsightedness.
China, India and others are state owned money chasing the oil. Ours is privately owned oil companies.
If you ask me, tax breaks to provide moneys for wind turbines and solar panels. I have thousands of square feet under roof, and if that were lined with solar panels, it would generate a ton of power. Yes they are expensive. Not yet efficient enough to compete with oil or gas. But give us subsidies! Enable it to be efficient. How about tax breaks or rebates for energy efficient windows. For us to put new windows in our buildings would be a huge benefit, cutting costs to heat etc., but huge money up front. You want to cut national dependence on oil? That is one way to help. Or help me to bear the financial brunt of building a new facility! There are brownfields here in Worcester. There are ways. You do it for the hospitals, what about us? How about windmills down the centerstrips of highways? Free airspace, plenty of wind most of the time. Cut it out with trying to put up wind turbines in cape cod bay or vineyard sound. How about all the interstate highways??????
There are ways, but to me the answer is to work on enabling some of the alternative energy supplies or possibilities to be more cost possible, and to enable less oil or gas usage.
AS long as we are that hungry for it, there will be competition for it. And you are right, it is a tough market!
China, India and others are state owned money chasing the oil. Ours is privately owned oil companies.
If you ask me, tax breaks to provide moneys for wind turbines and solar panels. I have thousands of square feet under roof, and if that were lined with solar panels, it would generate a ton of power. Yes they are expensive. Not yet efficient enough to compete with oil or gas. But give us subsidies! Enable it to be efficient. How about tax breaks or rebates for energy efficient windows. For us to put new windows in our buildings would be a huge benefit, cutting costs to heat etc., but huge money up front. You want to cut national dependence on oil? That is one way to help. Or help me to bear the financial brunt of building a new facility! There are brownfields here in Worcester. There are ways. You do it for the hospitals, what about us? How about windmills down the centerstrips of highways? Free airspace, plenty of wind most of the time. Cut it out with trying to put up wind turbines in cape cod bay or vineyard sound. How about all the interstate highways??????
There are ways, but to me the answer is to work on enabling some of the alternative energy supplies or possibilities to be more cost possible, and to enable less oil or gas usage.
AS long as we are that hungry for it, there will be competition for it. And you are right, it is a tough market!
Everyone who still thinks we're in Iraq to free the people raise your hand.......................
Dug,
heard a story out of NJ the other day about a guy by the shore who got a permit to install a wind generator. Got it up and the neighbors complained, local goverment yanked his permit after the fact. Was supplying 1/4 of his electric use.
Until you get the self centered nose in the air jackasses in this country to remove their heads from their asses and see whats comming down the road, alternative engergy sources will be nixed.
Unless of course its products like ethanol.
Something that the intelligent people of this country realize is 10 steps backwards.
Never understood the proclivity for this country to take 10 steps backwards, then two steps forward when addressing problems.
Dug,
heard a story out of NJ the other day about a guy by the shore who got a permit to install a wind generator. Got it up and the neighbors complained, local goverment yanked his permit after the fact. Was supplying 1/4 of his electric use.
Until you get the self centered nose in the air jackasses in this country to remove their heads from their asses and see whats comming down the road, alternative engergy sources will be nixed.
Unless of course its products like ethanol.
Something that the intelligent people of this country realize is 10 steps backwards.
Never understood the proclivity for this country to take 10 steps backwards, then two steps forward when addressing problems.
An interesting article pertaining to our discussion.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19650857/site/newsweek/
By Melinda Liu
Newsweek International
July 16, 2007 issue - Wang Hai's mobile phone keeps buzzing with calls from clients. He's China's most famous crusader against fraudulent, shoddy and dangerous goods. The business consultant targets counterfeiters, helps duped consumers and protects whistle-blowers, many of whom face harassment or worse. "A good system for guaranteeing quality control simply doesn't exist in China," says Wang, who's been on the consumer-rights warpath for more than a decade. "Even confidential informants who report to authorities about someone selling fraudulent goods can wind up dead, under suspicious circumstances."
All of that ensures Wang is extremely busy these days. Over the past few months, a number of dramatic product-safety scandals have rocked China—and horrified the world. The U.S. media have exposed one badly made Chinese export after another, from poisonous pet food to toxic toothpaste to tires so poorly made they litter American highways with shredded treads. These revelations have raised serious questions about China's rise as factory to the world. It may seem hard to remember now, but just a few years ago, pundits and the global press were marveling at how quickly China had come on as a major manufacturing export power able, or so the thinking went, to build just about anything fast, cheap and well.
Now the true picture is emerging, and it isn't pretty. Far from the disciplined and tightly controlled economy China was thought to have, the ongoing scandals have revealed an often chaotic system with lax standards, where the government's economic authority has been weakened by rapid reforms. This sorry state is not unprecedented—other economies, such as South Korea's and Japan's, experienced similar growing pains decades ago. The difference, and the danger, is one of scale, since Chinese goods now dominate the world in so many sectors. Unless Beijing can improve its image fast and turn "Made in China" into a prestigious—or at least reliable—brand, consumers will remain at risk and the country's export-driven economic miracle could face serious trouble.
China today resembles nothing so much as the United States a century ago, when robber barons, gangsterism and raw capitalism held sway. Now as then, powerful vested interests are profiting from murky regulations, shoddy enforcement, rampant corruption and a lack of consumer awareness. In the United States during the early 20th century, public outrage over bogus drugs and contaminated foodstuffs, fueled by graphic accounts such as Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," finally prompted passage of the landmark Pure Food and Drug Act. China needs a similar revolution today if it is to protect its competitiveness and its consumers.
The problem is especially pressing at home. Bad as the export scandals have been, conditions are even worse inside China. Factories that produce domestic goods often have far lower standards than those that produce and export clothes, consumer electronics or microchips. Zhou Qing is the author of "What Kind of God," an exposé whose sense of social mission could easily be compared to Sinclair's epic. In it, Zhou spins one hair-raising tale after another. There's seafood laced with additives that lower men's sperm counts, soy sauce bulked up with arsenic-tainted human hair swept up from the barbershop floor and hormone-infused fast food that prompts 6-year-old boys to sprout facial hair and 7-year-old girls to grow breasts.
In writing his book, Zhou had plenty of material to choose from. While the export scandals are new, Chinese consumers have had it so bad for so long that their casualty count is staggering. Bogus antibiotics produced in Anhui were blamed for six deaths and 80 people falling ill in 2006. In 2004, unsafe infant formula killed at least 50 babies and left another 200 severely malnourished, according to media reports. Virtually every product category is affected, from candy that has choked children to killer fireworks to toxic face cream. At least 300 million Chinese citizens—roughly the same number as the entire U.S. population—suffer from food-borne diseases annually, according to a recent report by the Asian Development Bank and World Health Organization.
To be fair, Beijing has made some attempts to limit the damage. Officials implicated in consumer-product scandals are starting to face severe punishment. In May, a court sentenced to death Zheng Xiaoyu, first leader of China's State Food and Drug Administration, for approving fake medicines in exchange for bribes. Officials from the factory that produced the melamine linked to at least 16 U.S. pet deaths have been detained. Last week, as U.S. media reported on pesticide runoff and drugs affecting farm-raised catfish bound for U.S. markets, Chinese authorities released a survey taken earlier this year that showed that less than 1 percent of food sold for export—and 20 percent of the products made for the domestic market—was substandard or tainted.
Yet it's far too soon to conclude that China is starting to clean up its act the way the United States once did. In part that's because politics here remains a different and dangerous game. When "What Kind of God" was released in China at the beginning of this year, its state-owned publisher edited the text heavily and distributed few copies with scant publicity, ensuring that the public reaction would be minor compared with that which greeted Sinclair's book. Although Politburo members initially praised Zhou's work, Zhou contends his status as an '80s dissident led to subsequent efforts to downplay its importance. Zhou spent almost three years in prison following the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests.
Indeed, in China, muckrakers like Zhou must still tread carefully, especially if their work negatively affects the bottom line of provincial czars. That's a lesson Zheng Qi, a whistle-blower in Jiangsu and one of Wang Hai's clients, learned the hard way. Trained as a quality-control technician at a military hospital, he reported to authorities in 2004 that the Peng Yao Pharmaceutical Factory near Wuxi was exporting bogus pills to Africa. (Zheng had once worked at the plant, but was fired after trying to expose a similar case in the '90s; he asked to use a pseudonym because he fears for his safety.) According to Zheng, the factory claimed the pills would fight insect-borne diseases such as malaria. But he says this wasn't true, and that Africans may have died as a result.
No sooner had he made his claim than Zheng began to suffer harassment, and in a recent unsolved accident, he was hit by a car with fake license plates. "I believe I'm followed and monitored everywhere. The traffic accident was done on purpose," he says. Zheng blames factory head Zhang Guoqing for his persecution, alleging Zhang's connections to local party and government officials have shielded his plant, which continues to operate. (Zhang declined to respond to allegations.)
Fortunately, Beijing will find it harder to resist international economic pressure than it has domestic critics. The embarrassment and controversy over shoddy exports—including diethylene glycol added to cough syrup, which has killed at least 93 Panamanians since July 2006—are being used by some Beijing authorities to prod other bureaucrats into action. "Just as the Chinese leadership used WTO entry as leverage to push domestic reform agendas, it will use [this] international pressure to improve public-health and food-safety issues," says Wenran Jiang, a Sinologist at the University of Alberta. Zhou, the author, notes that China's former FDA head Zheng Xiaoyu was sentenced to death in May "because of America's dogs and Panama's cough syrup."
Yet Beijing is finding it harder to wield the kind of power over the provinces that it once did, making the cleanup that much more difficult. "There are clear indications that Beijing cannot effectively control the rest of the country," says Jiang. "The regime is particularly weak at regulating a cutthroat market economy with millions of private enterprises." Three decades ago, all of China's big manufacturers were state-owned enterprises, and the government could guarantee quality control. Now, however, many manufacturing companies, including formerly state-owned enterprises, have slipped into the loosely regulated private sector. These big businesses often get preferential treatment from local officials who are supposed to monitor them. And companies commonly bribe local police forces, even paying cops' individual salaries. Then there's the problem of regulations themselves. Experts say China should adopt an EU-style Basic Food Law and streamline its overlapping rules and jurisdictions. For the time being, different agencies still issue and follow different guidelines.
China also lacks a system for properly recording quality complaints, which makes it easy for authorities to later deny knowledge of a transgression. And according to Zhang Bing of the consulting firm AT Kearney, China has little means for tracking defective goods back to the source after they are distributed.
As a result of such gaps, China's many lapses are undermining the country's reputation as a juggernaut that will soon compete head-to-head with the likes of Germany and Japan in the most sophisticated sectors of industrial manufacturing. China's high-end exports are more comparable with those of South Korea and Taiwan, says Oded Shenkar, a professor at Ohio State University's Fisher College of Business. In other words, they rank somewhere between Mexico's and Japan's. And the Chinese government must figure out how to improve quality if it hopes to keep the economy humming. The recent U.S. recall of defective Chinese-made car tires suggests more such discoveries may be forthcoming, which would further tarnish mainland brands and dent their overseas ambitions. For example, the Chinese manufacturer Chery Automobile, in cooperation with Chrysler, plans to start exporting small and subcompact vehicles to the United States in less than a year. But a scandal there could prove crippling. Other Chinese automakers, such as Geely, have already postponed plans to export to the West because ensuring safety and performance standards has proved so difficult. The Chinese-made Landwind SUV recently received the worst crash rating a German auto club had awarded in two decades.
The real problem may be that some parts of the Chinese bureaucracy have become so used to quality problems at home that they are waking up too slowly to the damage these lapses do to their reputation in Europe, the United States and Japan. The mind-set of the demanding consumer society has not yet taken hold. When U.S. officials tried to raise the product-safety issue during a recent session of the Sino-U.S. strategic dialogue, held in Washington, D.C., in late June, Chinese delegates seemed caught flat-footed and asked to defer discussion until the next round.
Fortunately, history suggests that once Beijing gets serious it will make rapid progress. Many other Asian economies experienced similar teething problems at parallel stages in their development. Tech analyst Dan Heyler of Merrill Lynch in Hong Kong recalls that Taiwan used to have a reputation for slipshod products, before figuring out how to turn things around. "The learning curve begins with reverse engineering to kick-start a lucrative export trade," Heyler explains. The next stage is, "Let's cut corners so we can make more money," he says. "But that doesn't work. China is in the next part of the learning curve, which is [guaranteeing] quality." Like other Asian forerunners, Chinese firms will face a powerful imperative: raise safety and quality standards or get shut out of foreign markets. Still, it may take them longer to adapt than did companies in countries with stronger laws and regulations.
This is worrisome, since China is already so big and globalized. The mainland's mushrooming road system, for example, makes it easier for Chinese eels and wheels to travel from East to West. "All of those farmers at the end of all those brand-new highways are suddenly connected to the rest of China—which is now connected to all of us," says Drew Thompson, China studies director at the Nixon Center in Washington, D.C. "But getting all those farmers up to international standards is a Herculean task." To accomplish it will require a clear-eyed recognition of the problem, not a stifling of Chinese critics following in the footsteps of Upton Sinclair.
With Jonathan Adams and Jonathan Ansfield in Beijing
© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19650857/site/newsweek/
By Melinda Liu
Newsweek International
July 16, 2007 issue - Wang Hai's mobile phone keeps buzzing with calls from clients. He's China's most famous crusader against fraudulent, shoddy and dangerous goods. The business consultant targets counterfeiters, helps duped consumers and protects whistle-blowers, many of whom face harassment or worse. "A good system for guaranteeing quality control simply doesn't exist in China," says Wang, who's been on the consumer-rights warpath for more than a decade. "Even confidential informants who report to authorities about someone selling fraudulent goods can wind up dead, under suspicious circumstances."
All of that ensures Wang is extremely busy these days. Over the past few months, a number of dramatic product-safety scandals have rocked China—and horrified the world. The U.S. media have exposed one badly made Chinese export after another, from poisonous pet food to toxic toothpaste to tires so poorly made they litter American highways with shredded treads. These revelations have raised serious questions about China's rise as factory to the world. It may seem hard to remember now, but just a few years ago, pundits and the global press were marveling at how quickly China had come on as a major manufacturing export power able, or so the thinking went, to build just about anything fast, cheap and well.
Now the true picture is emerging, and it isn't pretty. Far from the disciplined and tightly controlled economy China was thought to have, the ongoing scandals have revealed an often chaotic system with lax standards, where the government's economic authority has been weakened by rapid reforms. This sorry state is not unprecedented—other economies, such as South Korea's and Japan's, experienced similar growing pains decades ago. The difference, and the danger, is one of scale, since Chinese goods now dominate the world in so many sectors. Unless Beijing can improve its image fast and turn "Made in China" into a prestigious—or at least reliable—brand, consumers will remain at risk and the country's export-driven economic miracle could face serious trouble.
China today resembles nothing so much as the United States a century ago, when robber barons, gangsterism and raw capitalism held sway. Now as then, powerful vested interests are profiting from murky regulations, shoddy enforcement, rampant corruption and a lack of consumer awareness. In the United States during the early 20th century, public outrage over bogus drugs and contaminated foodstuffs, fueled by graphic accounts such as Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," finally prompted passage of the landmark Pure Food and Drug Act. China needs a similar revolution today if it is to protect its competitiveness and its consumers.
The problem is especially pressing at home. Bad as the export scandals have been, conditions are even worse inside China. Factories that produce domestic goods often have far lower standards than those that produce and export clothes, consumer electronics or microchips. Zhou Qing is the author of "What Kind of God," an exposé whose sense of social mission could easily be compared to Sinclair's epic. In it, Zhou spins one hair-raising tale after another. There's seafood laced with additives that lower men's sperm counts, soy sauce bulked up with arsenic-tainted human hair swept up from the barbershop floor and hormone-infused fast food that prompts 6-year-old boys to sprout facial hair and 7-year-old girls to grow breasts.
In writing his book, Zhou had plenty of material to choose from. While the export scandals are new, Chinese consumers have had it so bad for so long that their casualty count is staggering. Bogus antibiotics produced in Anhui were blamed for six deaths and 80 people falling ill in 2006. In 2004, unsafe infant formula killed at least 50 babies and left another 200 severely malnourished, according to media reports. Virtually every product category is affected, from candy that has choked children to killer fireworks to toxic face cream. At least 300 million Chinese citizens—roughly the same number as the entire U.S. population—suffer from food-borne diseases annually, according to a recent report by the Asian Development Bank and World Health Organization.
To be fair, Beijing has made some attempts to limit the damage. Officials implicated in consumer-product scandals are starting to face severe punishment. In May, a court sentenced to death Zheng Xiaoyu, first leader of China's State Food and Drug Administration, for approving fake medicines in exchange for bribes. Officials from the factory that produced the melamine linked to at least 16 U.S. pet deaths have been detained. Last week, as U.S. media reported on pesticide runoff and drugs affecting farm-raised catfish bound for U.S. markets, Chinese authorities released a survey taken earlier this year that showed that less than 1 percent of food sold for export—and 20 percent of the products made for the domestic market—was substandard or tainted.
Yet it's far too soon to conclude that China is starting to clean up its act the way the United States once did. In part that's because politics here remains a different and dangerous game. When "What Kind of God" was released in China at the beginning of this year, its state-owned publisher edited the text heavily and distributed few copies with scant publicity, ensuring that the public reaction would be minor compared with that which greeted Sinclair's book. Although Politburo members initially praised Zhou's work, Zhou contends his status as an '80s dissident led to subsequent efforts to downplay its importance. Zhou spent almost three years in prison following the 1989 Tiananmen democracy protests.
Indeed, in China, muckrakers like Zhou must still tread carefully, especially if their work negatively affects the bottom line of provincial czars. That's a lesson Zheng Qi, a whistle-blower in Jiangsu and one of Wang Hai's clients, learned the hard way. Trained as a quality-control technician at a military hospital, he reported to authorities in 2004 that the Peng Yao Pharmaceutical Factory near Wuxi was exporting bogus pills to Africa. (Zheng had once worked at the plant, but was fired after trying to expose a similar case in the '90s; he asked to use a pseudonym because he fears for his safety.) According to Zheng, the factory claimed the pills would fight insect-borne diseases such as malaria. But he says this wasn't true, and that Africans may have died as a result.
No sooner had he made his claim than Zheng began to suffer harassment, and in a recent unsolved accident, he was hit by a car with fake license plates. "I believe I'm followed and monitored everywhere. The traffic accident was done on purpose," he says. Zheng blames factory head Zhang Guoqing for his persecution, alleging Zhang's connections to local party and government officials have shielded his plant, which continues to operate. (Zhang declined to respond to allegations.)
Fortunately, Beijing will find it harder to resist international economic pressure than it has domestic critics. The embarrassment and controversy over shoddy exports—including diethylene glycol added to cough syrup, which has killed at least 93 Panamanians since July 2006—are being used by some Beijing authorities to prod other bureaucrats into action. "Just as the Chinese leadership used WTO entry as leverage to push domestic reform agendas, it will use [this] international pressure to improve public-health and food-safety issues," says Wenran Jiang, a Sinologist at the University of Alberta. Zhou, the author, notes that China's former FDA head Zheng Xiaoyu was sentenced to death in May "because of America's dogs and Panama's cough syrup."
Yet Beijing is finding it harder to wield the kind of power over the provinces that it once did, making the cleanup that much more difficult. "There are clear indications that Beijing cannot effectively control the rest of the country," says Jiang. "The regime is particularly weak at regulating a cutthroat market economy with millions of private enterprises." Three decades ago, all of China's big manufacturers were state-owned enterprises, and the government could guarantee quality control. Now, however, many manufacturing companies, including formerly state-owned enterprises, have slipped into the loosely regulated private sector. These big businesses often get preferential treatment from local officials who are supposed to monitor them. And companies commonly bribe local police forces, even paying cops' individual salaries. Then there's the problem of regulations themselves. Experts say China should adopt an EU-style Basic Food Law and streamline its overlapping rules and jurisdictions. For the time being, different agencies still issue and follow different guidelines.
China also lacks a system for properly recording quality complaints, which makes it easy for authorities to later deny knowledge of a transgression. And according to Zhang Bing of the consulting firm AT Kearney, China has little means for tracking defective goods back to the source after they are distributed.
As a result of such gaps, China's many lapses are undermining the country's reputation as a juggernaut that will soon compete head-to-head with the likes of Germany and Japan in the most sophisticated sectors of industrial manufacturing. China's high-end exports are more comparable with those of South Korea and Taiwan, says Oded Shenkar, a professor at Ohio State University's Fisher College of Business. In other words, they rank somewhere between Mexico's and Japan's. And the Chinese government must figure out how to improve quality if it hopes to keep the economy humming. The recent U.S. recall of defective Chinese-made car tires suggests more such discoveries may be forthcoming, which would further tarnish mainland brands and dent their overseas ambitions. For example, the Chinese manufacturer Chery Automobile, in cooperation with Chrysler, plans to start exporting small and subcompact vehicles to the United States in less than a year. But a scandal there could prove crippling. Other Chinese automakers, such as Geely, have already postponed plans to export to the West because ensuring safety and performance standards has proved so difficult. The Chinese-made Landwind SUV recently received the worst crash rating a German auto club had awarded in two decades.
The real problem may be that some parts of the Chinese bureaucracy have become so used to quality problems at home that they are waking up too slowly to the damage these lapses do to their reputation in Europe, the United States and Japan. The mind-set of the demanding consumer society has not yet taken hold. When U.S. officials tried to raise the product-safety issue during a recent session of the Sino-U.S. strategic dialogue, held in Washington, D.C., in late June, Chinese delegates seemed caught flat-footed and asked to defer discussion until the next round.
Fortunately, history suggests that once Beijing gets serious it will make rapid progress. Many other Asian economies experienced similar teething problems at parallel stages in their development. Tech analyst Dan Heyler of Merrill Lynch in Hong Kong recalls that Taiwan used to have a reputation for slipshod products, before figuring out how to turn things around. "The learning curve begins with reverse engineering to kick-start a lucrative export trade," Heyler explains. The next stage is, "Let's cut corners so we can make more money," he says. "But that doesn't work. China is in the next part of the learning curve, which is [guaranteeing] quality." Like other Asian forerunners, Chinese firms will face a powerful imperative: raise safety and quality standards or get shut out of foreign markets. Still, it may take them longer to adapt than did companies in countries with stronger laws and regulations.
This is worrisome, since China is already so big and globalized. The mainland's mushrooming road system, for example, makes it easier for Chinese eels and wheels to travel from East to West. "All of those farmers at the end of all those brand-new highways are suddenly connected to the rest of China—which is now connected to all of us," says Drew Thompson, China studies director at the Nixon Center in Washington, D.C. "But getting all those farmers up to international standards is a Herculean task." To accomplish it will require a clear-eyed recognition of the problem, not a stifling of Chinese critics following in the footsteps of Upton Sinclair.
With Jonathan Adams and Jonathan Ansfield in Beijing
© 2007 Newsweek, Inc.
Thanks Bruce, spot on.
Yet she doesn't touch on the lack of recognition of copywright laws, the legal system's lack of protection for joint-venture partners over party connected investors and on and on. There will be tears.
Our goverments live with all this and support China's rise by enabling globalisation as Chinese manufacturing is one of the controlling factors of inflation in the western economies, our businesses large & small see nothing but commercial opportunity and we consumers ignored the human cost, ours and theirs, because we got affordable flat panel TVs and other cheap stuff, though most of it is landfill.
Yet the toothpaste, dogfood, antibiotics, cough syrup, tires (and engine mounts), not to mention slave-labor caught making official Olympics souvenirs, has given the press pause recently but they'll move on with good news again soon. I can't see Rupert and Wendi supporting a crusade.
I for one am not looking forward to the "Chinese Century".
I'm going fishing.
Nic
Yet she doesn't touch on the lack of recognition of copywright laws, the legal system's lack of protection for joint-venture partners over party connected investors and on and on. There will be tears.
Our goverments live with all this and support China's rise by enabling globalisation as Chinese manufacturing is one of the controlling factors of inflation in the western economies, our businesses large & small see nothing but commercial opportunity and we consumers ignored the human cost, ours and theirs, because we got affordable flat panel TVs and other cheap stuff, though most of it is landfill.
Yet the toothpaste, dogfood, antibiotics, cough syrup, tires (and engine mounts), not to mention slave-labor caught making official Olympics souvenirs, has given the press pause recently but they'll move on with good news again soon. I can't see Rupert and Wendi supporting a crusade.
I for one am not looking forward to the "Chinese Century".
I'm going fishing.
Nic
Hull No. 330 1963 SF "Tennessee"
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- Senior Member
- Posts: 7036
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 21:24
- Location: Hillsdale, New Jersey
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It has been interesting sourcing things in China.
I have been asked a couple of times to procure special parts. Typically bearings.
I usually cringe, because it is a price based question (reality can hurt...), but it is usually asked for a reason. But I cringe for two reasons.
First is that until you really dial in your supplier on that one part, it is possible that it will come in out of dimension, seals can fall out, zerks can be the wrong size, set screws wrong size, too close to the edge causing weakness, through hardened so prone to cracking, the list goes on. And it is funny, a supplier can make one part perfectly, and the next size is all wrong. So it is usually one size or part at a time. But that is for a wide range of reasons...
I also cringe because if it is a special, more often than not, the samples come in wrong, and then when I ask why they are not dimensioned to the print, I have actually been told, more than once that my print must be wrong, and the part was made right... Hmmmmm....
Now, american suppliers are vulnerable to mistakes as well, but that answer always bowls me over!
In the right application, it is great option to be able to supplement the product line with the involvement of the end customer.
But you have to keep your legs together and plan for the challenges. As I said, 99% proudly made here in the USA damned well.
I have been asked a couple of times to procure special parts. Typically bearings.
I usually cringe, because it is a price based question (reality can hurt...), but it is usually asked for a reason. But I cringe for two reasons.
First is that until you really dial in your supplier on that one part, it is possible that it will come in out of dimension, seals can fall out, zerks can be the wrong size, set screws wrong size, too close to the edge causing weakness, through hardened so prone to cracking, the list goes on. And it is funny, a supplier can make one part perfectly, and the next size is all wrong. So it is usually one size or part at a time. But that is for a wide range of reasons...
I also cringe because if it is a special, more often than not, the samples come in wrong, and then when I ask why they are not dimensioned to the print, I have actually been told, more than once that my print must be wrong, and the part was made right... Hmmmmm....
Now, american suppliers are vulnerable to mistakes as well, but that answer always bowls me over!
In the right application, it is great option to be able to supplement the product line with the involvement of the end customer.
But you have to keep your legs together and plan for the challenges. As I said, 99% proudly made here in the USA damned well.
- Capt. Mike Holmes
- Senior Member
- Posts: 610
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 20:58
- Location: Freeport, Texas
- Contact:
Chinee
A vendor installing a distillation column where I used to work told me that he had just installed one in China. It used a rachet wrench and socket to raise and lower the heavy kettle holding crude to be distilled. The Chinese called and said they had the correct wrench to raise the kettle, but couldn't find the one that lowered it!
"There is nothing quite so satisfying, as simply messing around in boats."
well.. here is one idea we might try using in this country to ensure the quality of the goods and services that are approved or at least allowed by our government!
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/china-exec ... 5109990001
http://news.aol.com/story/_a/china-exec ... 5109990001
- CaptPatrick
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- Location: 834 Scott Dr., LLANO, TX 78643 - 325.248.0809 bertram31@bertram31.com
Quality is like oats...
Good clean, fresh oats cost more,
but if you can settle for oats that have been through the horse,
well,,,,
they're a lot cheaper.
Good clean, fresh oats cost more,
but if you can settle for oats that have been through the horse,
well,,,,
they're a lot cheaper.
Last edited by CaptPatrick on Jul 10th, '07, 18:37, edited 1 time in total.
Br,
Patrick
Molon labe
Patrick
Molon labe
timmy...missed your question till now.....just off the top of my head id say no way on HP to weight....etype is much faster..240z....135HP...0-60 8 seconds..wheel base maybe ...but so what....lots of cars share that....my healey has more cubes...i'm thinkin its an inhouse design created to mine the lucrative American market for "gt" cars in the late 60's.........china is still a long way from being japan when it comes to ingenuity...cheap labor...no contest
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