Anchor winches and bow roller decisions

[Amberjack]

Tony, it is a Lewmar windlass. I talked with Good which was highly recommended but they had no West Coast presence or service availability. Lewmar has the market out here. I figured others had done their research, bought one for myself and have been happy with it. Reasonably priced, looks fine and works like its supposed to.

I can't find the mfr name for the bow roller. We brought in a Lewmar bow roller plus the one I eventually installed, bolted the windlass and both rollers to the workbench and tried them. The Lewmar bow roller was a bit flimsy and tended to torque. The other one was rock solid so on the bow it went.

We also tried both Rocna and Fortress anchors. The Fortress anchor seated beautifully in the bow roller while the Rocna moved around a bit in the stowed position so I went with the Fortress even though it doesn't look quite as streamlined as a plow anchor. Both Rocna and Fortress are considered third generation anchors and highly recommended. The Fortress has worked well which it should with 90' of chain behind it.

Yannis, your question caused me to look at the bow roller with fresh eyes. It originally came with a hoop, lets call it a "retainer" bolted on the nose. I didn't like it because it looked flimsy and not fit for intended function so I took it off. It turns out the second roller performs the same function if the ground tackle is led underneath it. Probably not its intended function. I now think it is there for boats that want the ability to deploy the ground tackle from the bridge. In that case the ground tackle would be led above the roller so the anchor would be poised at an upward angle and would drop as soon as the windlass was released. Carrying the anchor with the stock stowed horizontally as I do requires someone forward to manhandle it until enough weight is forward of the front roller to let gravity take over.

[Yannis]

Doug,

Very few are the times that you can avoid visiting the bow to let the anchor out enough so it can be then manipulated from the bridge, as you have to undo the security harness/shackle anyway...
I can’t even imagine cruising with an anchor not secured, so he who will go forward to undo it, might as well give it some slack for gravity to do the rest.
When the chain jumps over the gypsy and allows the unsecured anchor to start free falling while cruising, you can start kissing parts of the boat goodbye...

[Amberjack]

Yannis, you know that and I know that but I have read some charter boats move from place to place and deploy the anchor frequently to hold position. Some windlasses have a free fall option to facilitate the process. Perhaps someone on the board can confirm or refute this.

[Tony Meola]

Doug

The Good windless does free fall and according to good you do not need to have a security line to hold the anchor in place. I am not sure if I would want to let the anchor hang out there without a security line. Hit one good wave and who knows when that will let go.

Well if I am going to install one, I have to reinforce the deck, and I was thinking about glassing in 1/2-inch fiberglass plates that McMaster Car sells. I would have to relocate the cleats and install chocks for the line when at the dock.

I was hoping to go to the AC boat show this weekend, but a family function has come up so that is out. I visited Good's facility back in September, but was hoping to take another look at them.

He uses starboard as a backing plate as well as on the deck. I am not sure I like the ideas of that as a backing plate. On the deck, I am iffy about it. He carries it far enough back and mounts the winch to it. He claims that is so the line pulls in a straight line. Usually I have seen the winch sitting on the pulpit, but I see you have yours mounted directly to the deck.

I know the deck has a bow to it, how did it mount over that raised area?

[Yannis]

Doug,

That free falling function is very practical, especially when it is windy, but still, someone has to go there with a rod to unwind the gypsy for the anchor to fall. So they might as well undo the harness and provide the slack necessary for bridge handling.

There has to be a clarification here:
Like Tony says, there is always the risk that a big wave can trigger the anchor to free fall causing havoc, the point is that the anchor can free fall NOT ONLY because the gypsy suddenly came loose and lost the friction necessary so it started turning, the issue is that a big wave can displace the anchor rings altogether to jump over and out of the gypsy, so the anchor can free fall with the gypsy being snug and still. That is why the security harness is compulsory.

As for the charters that deploy the anchor too often, you don't HAVE to bring the anchor ALL THE WAY up if you plan to move a few meters to find a better position in a bay or a cleaner bottom for it to grip. You can let it hang a little so that you can deploy it from the bridge without additional help at the bow. The anchor up and secure is for when you cruise.

Tony,

The windlass secures itself on the deck with (usually) four bolts. You can reinforce the deck either with a rectangular piece of 2cm plywood that you can glass under the deck where the windlass will be positioned, or, fabricate a SS rectangular ring with pre opened bolt holes that will serve as a backing plate. I’ve seen on this site real overkills I deem unnecessary, either the wood being extremely large or extremely thick or both.

The unevenness of the deck at the bow (a step, a rim) can be overcome like Doug did, or I did, by glassing on the deck a piece of ply to even out the difference in height. You only need a dimension that is within the footprint of the stainless roller assembly, you don't need a pulpit or anything magnanimous. You may also want to go underneath, remove the forward bulkhead and glass the deck to the hull for 60-70 cm on either side. This will provide further rigidity AND watertightness.

If you plan on carrying a length of (usually for our boats) 8mm thick chain, which to be meaningful has to be at least 20m long, thus heavy, (I carry 60m), rest assured that the numerous screws that secure the forward bulkhead in place WILL give way in rough weather and the chain will move onto the cabin sole. That is why you will need to make a true chain compartment all around and NOT rely on the existing bulkhead. On the other hand, if you only need 2-3 meters of chain and then rope, you shouldn't need to create and reinforce the compartment.

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

Thanks. I was thinking of just a local backing plate as you described, but I don't think it is too much trouble to reinforce the whole deck.

I really don't need to reinforce the anchor locker. We use rope with about 10 to 15 feet of chain. Only more chain would be called for if you were going to try and hold bottom in a Hurricane.

[Amberjack]

Tony-I did pretty much the same as Yannis for the bow roller which is to glass up a mount to support the aft end. The front end doesn't extend far over the bow so it is self supporting, a reason I went with the sturdier one. No pulpit necessary and I've never had an issue with the anchor hitting the boat as long as I pay attention.

I felt the under deck structure was plenty strong without glassing in additional support. The windlass isn't supposed to pull that hard and when it does I can hear the limiter kick in which tells me I'm abusing the system. Any strain at anchor is taken by the cleats which are located where they always were.

As for chain against the bulkhead Yannis, I can see that could be an issue. My chain falls far enough forward that it doesn't lean against the bulkhead and it just sits there in a pile. I've never noticed that it has moved even after a passage. Possibly my foredeck is a touch longer than on your boat so the chain falls just a bit further forward.

[Yannis]

Doug,

The under the deck reinforcement seems to have been there already!
Add to this the aluminum backing plate and you're king.
Im not sure from the pics if these are self locking nuts, there is enough vibration to justify their existence.

The chain in the 28 sits higher in the locker, thus leaning on the bulkhead ....also I carry 60m of 8mm chain, a heavy load indeed.
How long is your chain, it looks like 6mm but I cant be sure, how many watts is that Lewmar?
A piece of art compared to my “soviet” looking windlass!
Usually that type of Lewmars are vertical, good for you that this is horizontal (and feeds the chain vertically), much less jams that require somebody’s presence at the bow.
I have up and down controls at the bow, except the bridge, very very useful.

[Tony Meola]

Doug

The owner of Good Windless also does installations. If I go this route I would install it myself, it is not rocket science. What he does is build up the roller so it does not sit directly on the fiberglass toe rail. That would put the Windless slightly lover than the roller, and then the Windless would not pull straight, so he raises it so everything is level and in line.

Not sure yet how I would proceed, I will start looking at in a couple of weeks when we uncover and start getting ready for spring prep. Going to be a great year to get work done on the boat. I am thinking that by July we will be at $5.00 a gallon and heading north if we do not do something fast. I don't see many long excursions, but since she sat on the hard last year, I really am not going to let her linger for another summer. I missed all the inshore Tuna last year.

[Yannis]

Tony,

Either the windlass has to sit higher than the roller so that when you launch the anchor it can start falling by gravity, or, the underside of the anchor itself, the surface that sits on the roller, has to be sloped so that when you initiate the launch the anchor moves forward by itself, keeping a constant tension on the chain. Remember, the windlass does not PUSH the anchor forward, it just unwinds the chain; gravity lets the anchor fall.
Otherwise, the chain will create a "U" type of slack between the windlass and the roller, and then somebody has to go forward to push the anchor out.

PS: I would love to have a new shiny windlass, it's nice to look at it when driving from the fb, however my 1000w Lofrans Kobra does the job and I cannot spare €1500-2000 just to... improve the pleasure to my eyes.

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

Higher. I would have thought yes the anchor has to sit lower but when the shank of the anchor is up, the anchor rode and the windless and the shank should be in a straight line.

[Yannis]

Tony,

Look at the shank, right under the name "Delta".
As you launch the anchor, the tension is released.
The weight of the anchor makes the anchor move forward BECAUSE THE SHANK is sloped to allow this forward movement.

If the anchor is NOT designed like this (the danforths and the fortresses are NOT like this), then you have to CREATE this slope by placing the windlass a tad higher than the roller, so that when you release the tension the anchor slides forward by gravity.

If neither the anchor is designed like this, nor the gypsy sits higher than the roller, then, upon release of the tension, the rear end of the shank, the one which is tied to the chain, will simply sit on the deck and will not budge, you'll have to go out there and push it out yourself!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/191620136 ... 0297179978

[Amberjack]

Tony, I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about installation except that the deck must be strong enough to support it and the rode needs about a 90 degree contact patch with the gypsy to get a good grip on the chain and line. All the rest is personal preference. The Goode guy has his way, Yannis has his and I did mine. We all think we did it the right way.

I started with the windlass selection, then made anchor and bow roller choices (two each). Mixed and matched until I found a combination I liked. I see what Goode is trying to accomplish but in my case the Fortress won't self deploy anyway so it made sense to mount the windlass flush on the foredeck, a nice tidy installation. Not sure why Goode builds up the bow roller which seems to be what dictates building up the windlass.

Since someone needs to be on the foredeck to release the leash its easy enough to give the chain a foot of slack and kick the anchor forward to self deploy when the windlass is released. Not much different from an anchor that self deploys from the get go.

We run the windlass from the bridge. I go forward and hand signal my wife who runs the boat and the windlass. If single handing I would idle down, untie the leash and kick the anchor loose, then go back to the bridge to deploy.

By the way, be sure the Goode has a chain to rope gypsy. Mine works like a charm. I was a bit concerned about the straight rope to chain splice but it has work well for 3 years. I check it every year for wear but have seen none.

Over the years I have hand cranked a Simpson Lawerence 555 with 300' of chain, then hand pulled the B31 ground tackle. Now I have a windlass that does it all except I ease the anchor forward on the roller. Big deal, this is progress!!!

Anyway, get that boat back in the water. Inshore tuna sound like a lot of fun. You probably have stripers out there in the fall also. We don't have tuna or stripers or any salmon left for that matter so you're ahead of us already. If fuel goes up to $6 we'll just not extend as far into Canada but we'll still get up there. Enjoy the summer!

[Amberjack]

Usually I have seen the winch sitting on the pulpit, but I see you have yours mounted directly to the deck.

I know the deck has a bow to it, how did it mount over that raised area?

Tony--Not enough camber to be concerned about and it is likely the deck flattens out there. At any rate the base of the windlass is narrow enough that there were no significant gaps.

If installing yourself remember the gypsy not the centerline of the windlass needs to line up with the roller so the whole unit is offset slightly. The mfr should be able to provide installation instructions.

[Tony Meola]

Yannis

I see what you are saying.

Doug

Thanks. I see what you are saying. I uncover the boat in a couple of weeks, and I will take a better look at the deck before I decide what to do. My wife is on my case to get a windless. Like you and your wife, she runs the boat and then I handle the anchor. The windless would make life much easier and if diesel hits $6 a gallon, I can burn 150 gallons before it is costing more than sitting in the yard.

If the tuna come as close as they were last year a trip or two will be worth it. We had both Bluefin and Yellowfin within 20 miles of the beach at points in time last summer.

Ok now to decide if I stay with Good or move on to another brand.

[Yannis]

Doug,

You can also push the down button from the deck while the anchor is still on the leash.
That would create the necessary chain slack BEFORE you move down to the bow.
Then, when you unleash, the slack is already there and you don't need extra communication with your wife about when to launch.
Just saying...

As to how each chooses his own method, I see no differences between our two boats.
The roller assemblies are almost identical, they are both flush on the deck, without a pulpit, the only difference is the anchor type.

The reason I chose a Delta, which is INFERIOR than the Fortress in sand and mud, is its self deploying characteristics AND the fact that we do not always have sand. We have a lot of rocks too. So, the Fortress's mighty grab on a rock can become a real problem...either you have to make circles to "ungrab" it, or, you might destroy it if you pull too hard as it's made of softer aluminum. The latter wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't 4-5 times more expensive than the Delta!

Tony,

Opt for a horizontal windlass (like mine and Doug's) whose gypsy turns vertically onto the deck, as opposed to a vertical windlass whose gypsy turns horizontally on the deck. I know, the terminology here is misleading but that's how they call them.

This choice is far better if you despise chain jams. The vertical type is better looking as it's not that bulky, and it is preferred where height is an issue in confined spaces, like when it's hidden inside tight bow lockers (which is not the case in our boats). It looks smaller and sexier !! but the horizontal type is more practical in its use.

[Amberjack]

I can't find the mfr name for the bow roller. We brought in a Lewmar bow roller plus the one I eventually installed, bolted the windlass and both rollers to the workbench and tried them. The Lewmar bow roller was a bit flimsy and tended to torque. The other one was rock solid so on the bow it went.

Tony--I was on my hands 'n knees on the foredeck yesterday and saw right in front of my nose "Windline" faintly embossed on the bow roller. Further research on their website reveals it to be the Windline Bruce Medium. Mine looks a bit different now as I removed the aft roller and reinstalled it forward where they had originally located a pin which probably matched up to a tang on Bruce anchors and meant to secure them while underway. This arrangement works better for me by controlling the anchor when it lifts over the front roller and lets the stock sit lower on the roller when stowed. These Bertram owners, always tinkering..............

[Tony Meola]

Doug

Thank you. I will take a look at it. I appreciate that.