click, click no start

[offshore31]

Ok, i've tried some things and am baffled, so i'm coming to the mountain for guidance. What started out as an intermittent problem, seems to be full time now. I've got 1998 cummins 330hp diamonds. last year i had trouble occaisionally starting the stbd engine. Read the reports here, and cleaned up all ground connections etc. Didn't go away. Port occasionally did the same thing, so probably not engine related. Batt's were ~6 yrs old, so i replaced them beginning of this season. Right after replacing them, it started fine. Next trip, same problem. Yesterday, the port took 2 tries then fired. Stbd, took about 10 min of playing then fired. Makes no diff if i parallel the batts or not.

Grounds all are clean, 2 new batts, and even replaced the ignition switches (were old and cnx were crap). Could there be a common solenoid up by the starter switches? Or is it possible that they're not charging so i'm running off the batts all day? Guages show 13.5sh v at cruise. Not sure where/how to diagnose this problem.

I've gotta solve this, because if my boat's not running, Thudd'll force me into working on the tub. And unless that work entails a gas can and flare gun, i'm not looking forward to it.
Any suggestions?
Joe

[Harry Babb]

My best guess without getting in the bildge with a screw driver would be the relay solenoid or the starter solenoid.

Mounted on the starter is a "Starter solenoid" When the engines fail to start open the hatch and try touching a screw driver to the little wire on the starter solenoid and the battery cable on the starter solenoid at the same time.
This should make the starter engage and crank the engine. (Make sure that no one has their hand on the alternator belt and that the trans is in neutral)

This will by pass the entire starter circuit (Ign switch, relay and wiring harnass)

If the starter engages and spins the engine then I would immediately look for and test the relay solenoid.

The ignition switch will have to be in the "ON" position for the engine to start.

Harry Babb

[captbone]

When it try's to start, does it just crank or does it not crank all they way over?

I would jump the batteries right at the starter and see if it cranks over fine.

I would then jump the solenoid and see if it cranks fine.

It maybe the wiring to the solenoid, the solenoid itself or bad starters. Work your way backward.

Good Luck.

[thuddddddd]

First I'd buy enough gas and flares that after the tubb was taken care of, there would be enough to take care of your little bertram wannabe

[Bruce]

On the Diamond there are two solenoids(there are when new).

One on the starter is the main solenoid that switches the battery current.

Then there is a smaller one that they use to operate the solenoid on the starter. They do this because then they don't have to use a heavy wire in the harnass from the key sw. to operate the starter solenoid.

The smaller one is on a plate with other electrical stuff and is mounted on the side of the engine low just above the pan and there lies the problem.

First thing to do is grab a meter.

Ground the black lead well. Put the red lead on the start terminal( not battery) of the starter solenoid. Meter set to read 12vdc and have some one try and start.

If you read good voltage and the starter solenoid is clicking then all is well up to there. If your sure all battery cables and connections are good, a check with the meter on the main battery terminal connection will confirm, then pull starter and have checked to make sure wheather its the solenoid or the starter.

Try and report back with results.

BTW if your experiencing the same problem in both engines, the chances of it being electrical go way up.

[offshore31]

Thanks for the tips guys. All i get is a click, doesn't turn over or anything. Just click, like a dead battery. and it's happening to both, that's why i suspect electrical. and when i try to start, the voltage drops down. i also noticed that the low volt light goes off and i have to reset the start swicth... when it does start, the low voltage light stays on as it starts, and then goes off as it starts to charge. they've got 2100hrs on them. it's hard to believe that both engines have a problem at the same time. another reason i think it's electrical.

i'll get down and give your suggestions a shot this week and let you know how it goes.

thanks again
Joe

[Doug Crowther]

I had the same problem with two fully charged 8d's. It was the starter solenoid as identified above.

[offshore31]

went down yesterday to try some of the suggestions. Before i did anything, i tried both engines. Neither would turn. Both gave me the click and nada. I pulled out the vom, an inherited but beautiful old unit, but am not sure it's working right. Grounded it where the batt grounds to the engine, and put the positive on the large post on what i think is the starter solenoid. Had my wife try it from the bridge, and think i measured 12.7v. Also can plainly hear the solenoid go click. I was following the do no harm first rule, so i didn't try to jump the starter. Not positive which poles/wires to jump where. While i was upside down in the bilge, i changed the ams. Bruce, is that what you were referring to

"The smaller one is on a plate with other electrical stuff and is mounted on the side of the engine low just above the pan and there lies the problem"

The old one looked beat, but it didn't make a difference. Feels like either a battery problem, or both starters are going. I changed 1 batt end of last season, and the other went in 3 weeks ago. when i changed it 3 weeks ago, it started immediatly. but the following week i had a little trouble. and last weekend, we trolled all day. if the alternators aren't charging, it's possible that i ran them down. But it has been on a charger, and i could see/hear the batts bubbling, so i kinda doubt it's the batts. how long does a starter last? they're 1998's, and i've got 2100hrs on these, so it's possible. how can i test the starter without pulling them?

Thanks
Joe

[Dug]

Joe,

I would think it was unlikely that both starters would go at the same time... Stranger things have happened, but the odds are steep.

If your boat is on the Mystic River still, maybe it is the river water. I have a friend who owns a 32' Albemarle flybridge called Got Rum at Noank Shipyard. Same type of problem... He has a battery eating things.

Scary to me, as I can't figure out where the power is going...

He is on the cusp of a new charger, batteries, switches and a bunch of wiring. Sucks...

His boat hasn't left the slip since August of last year except to be hauled for the winter. Now it is back in, and still sitting...

[offshore31]

Dug

Not in the river anymore. Got tired of the 2 1/2 hr car ride down there, so i moved it back up here end of may. 45 min from the house and work. it's nice again to get down and use it anytime i want.

the stbd has been showing this problem intermittently the past 2 years. my batts were 6yrs old, so i replaced them thinking that was the problem. no change, and actually now it's gotten worse. was thinking it might be the starters because if there's a dead spot, it'll act like that also. Doug Crowther had similar symptoms and it was the starter solenoid. gotta figure out how to find and test the solenoid. haven't done it before, so i'm being paranoid. i don't want to cross the wrong wires and smoke something like my wiring harness.

Joe

[Doug Crowther]

Joe,
My solenoids (two of them) were both replaced at the same time. I wasn't sure which was fuel and which was the starter. The engine was dead (no click or anything)when I turned the key and hit the starter button. After replacing the solenoids it started instantly.I had the yard put the boat in and we started it up while still suspended in the slings. She ran for about 10 mins and the stbd engine cut off again. At this point I had no clue. There was a diesel mechanic in the yard who came over and immediately suspected the new fuel relay. He made a jumper wire and she started right back up and stayed running. Relay's are by design expendable parts. They are basically swithces with a magnetic coil in them. The fact that your problem went away for a short period of time after replacing the one battery sounds exactly like my problem. You in effect increased the amperage available to energize the coil within the relay and close the switch (typical problem as a relay dies). I luckly hadn't throw the old ones away, we tested both and put the old fuel relay back on the boat. I was on the verge of having my massive stbd starter rebuilt and it was a $40 relay. Not sure about both of yours acting up at the same time. Have you checked your battery or parallel switches ?

[Mikey]

Joe,
How old is the wiring? Original? Have you tried the Judge's magic potion on all connections? This may sound terribly elementary but I have always been the great diagnostician in my group because I start with the most basic of items. Connections may look sound and still be corroded underneath. Test each with a squirt of potion and a wiggle with wrench or screwdriver as the case may be. Include your battery switches and check them with an ohm meter.
Just a thought from a guy running on Sweet Virginia (100 degree) Breeze.

[offshore31]

Mikey,

I spent the day yesterday taking every connection i could find apart, checking the wiring, wire brushing everything etc. lots looked good, and a few were dirty but solid. Didn't make a difference. Batts are new also. The main wiring harness is original, but the engine harness and batt cables are probably only 9-10yrs old. Done when they repowered to diesels. Good idea about checking the batt switch with the vom. i'll do that next time i'm down there.

Doug

It does sound similar to your problem, but different. After going thru all the wiring i could yesterday, i did some experiments. I noticed that it eventually will kick if i keep tapping the starter button.

The port does it only occaisionally, and once it warms up it starts on first press of the start button. The stbd takes 5-10 kicks of the starter button before it catches. once it warms up, it will usually take 3-5 hits on the starter buttone before starting. occaisionally it will start on the first try. Kinda feels like a the starter(s) are going. But before i change them, i want to eliminate all electrical possibilities. I'll see if i can test the starter and fuel solenoids.

Thanks for the ideas guys. frustrating because there's a good tuna bite going on and i'm dockside... hopefully i'll figure this out this week and get back into it.

thanks again
Joe

[Mikey]

Joe,
Short out the starter buttons. Could it be that simple?

[offshore31]

mikey,

that's next on the list. just not sure how to do it. can i just attach a mechanics remote starter to the pos and neg on the starter solenoid?

Joe

[Bruce]

If you get a click at the engine when you push the start buttons, then chances are its not the start buttons as they are making connection to operate the solenoid.

Solenoids use copper contacts inside on engines. Real good ones are silver or nickle plated but your standard run of the mill solenoid uses copper.

These copper contacts corrode after a while and burn at the point of contact. When you hear a click, the relay coil is energizing and pulling the contacts together but due to the corrosion/burning they may not make actual electrical contact.

By hitting the start button over and over again your working the contacts together till they make and the starter engages.

This will only get worse till they contact no more.

Anyone who ever had a mercruiser outdrive has experienced this on the solenoids merc used on the outdrive ram pumps and on the engine.

This is easy enough checked with a voltmeter but will take two people. One at the engine, the other working the start buttons.

Check for voltage on the solenoid coil +.
If you have it, then check across the contact points. Both terminals should be hot. If one is and one is not with the solenoid clicking, there's your problem.

[offshore31]

bruce

is it worth trying to jumper the pos and neg on the starter solenoid to see if anything happens? i hope to head down tomorrow with the vom and see what i measure.

Thanks
Joe

[Doug Crowther]

Joe-
Pick up a relay and start by replacing the one on your hard to start engine. Cole Hersey is the brand available @ most boating stores-even West Marine stocks them. Takes 5 mins to switch one out. Think you will find it fixes what ails you. Get to the tuna bite ! Mine behaved exactly as you described.

[Bruce]

There are two positives on every solenoid.

One is the coil the other is the feed for the load.

If your going to jump something, jump the feed to the load. This is what is switched by the contacts.

Probably no need to mess with the ground if the solenoid is clicking.
There is only a ground on the coil, not the load and if it is clicking, then the ground is okay.

And I'm sure you already know but to state the obvious don't jump the positive and neg together.

[offshore31]

bruce et. al. thanks for all the tips. after trying just about everything i could, i replaced the starter and i'm all set.

thanks again everyone.
Joe