Some layout questions

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 12:01

I’m going to have a lot of questions and I may not always take the advice, but will certainly consider it.

A couple of things to know: I am not interested in a generator, air conditioning, a microwave or refrigerator. We use fresh water for washing hands and maybe a quick cleaning of the deck or some plates. Would like to have a fresh water head, either now or in the future. Most importantly my slip does not have shore power and I leave the boat in the water all year long.

So my question relates to the shelf outboard the engines, the companionway between the engines and below decks in the center of the cabin.

I need to fit in batteries, holding tank & freshwater tank, engine seacocks with crash valves, a mid ship bilge pump and 3 transducers plus a thru hull for the saltwater pump. One airmar LH chirp and a pair of side scan medium chirp.

Putting the batteries between the engines will be tight, it will also be wet.

1. If I pull the freshwater tank I can put the batteries just ahead of the bulkhead where it will be dry. Move the water tank forward of that and holding tank to the engine compartment. Or even a freshwater tank in the port engine compartment.

2. Put the batteries outside the engines and move the holding tank fwd of the freshwater and leave the companionway for my thruhulls and inhulls.

3. I also plan on keeping my teak deck and I’m not married to moving the exhaust outboard for fish boxes. I could potentially move both the freshwater and holding tanks under the deck. Put my transducers ahead of the cabin bulkhead and fit the seacocks and batteries in the companionway.

I guess there is a million ways to skin a cat, obviously weight back, centered and evenly distributed is the key. But I’m really concerned with closing off the bilge to the cabin and having my batteries there while the boat is in the water all winter. I’ve also had enough of oily fish gut bilge water under the cabin.

I’ve also thought about putting my thru hull for the SW washdown at the transom. Not sure that will work with a bigger tank. But the idea of putting it at the transom would make it easy if I wanted to add a sea chest and livewell down the road. It also would make it convenient to have a fitting at the transom to run my portable livewell on the swim platform.

trace elements · Post by **trace elements** » Sep 8th, '21, 13:11

Pete,

Many here like to put the batteries in the center bilge. When I rewired, I went against the grain and put my batteries on the shelves outboard of the engines. Two group 27 starting batteries and 2 group 31 house batteries. I had the same thought process as you. My transducer and seacocks are in the center bilge, and I am also going to add two crash pumps in this area. I am going to put my holding tank and freshwater tank under the salon floor.

I did not like the batteries at the lowest point in the bilge because in the event of a serious flooding situation, the batteries are the first thing completely submerged, and now your pumps, radios, and electronics are out of commission. Having the batteries high and dry is well worth the actual sacrifice in stability having them outboard of the engines, (having your fuel tank full vs empty makes a much bigger difference for comparison) These 31s have such a low center of gravity relative to 99% of other boats in its class, you would be hard-pressed to notice the difference wither way.

I plan to move my exhausts outboard in the interest of gaining underdeck storage space. Whether or not I add fish boxes, I will have hatches to easily access the entire exhaust. I have always tried to keep all of the underwater hull penetrations (seacocks, transducers) in the same compartment in the interest of not running around the boat looking for a leak.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Sep 8th, '21, 14:39

Sounds like your fresh water needs are minimal, say, no more than 100 liters?
If that is the case seriously consider a bladder. You can put it anywhere really and it does NOT need a breather as it deflates as the water is used. If you don't like where you put it, just move it elsewhere! I have 3 of those, 9 years now, without an issue.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 8th, '21, 14:51

I believe batteries need to be vented to fresh air as they expel hydrogen gas when charging or overcharging. My boats vented a bit too well so would not be an issue placed anywhere.
But if thinking of sealing the compartment area...it may be something to consider running past a professional and not just my "belief".

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 15:51

Yes I am also considering going against the grain. I’m not sure I love having the holding tank under the cabin sole either. It’s certainly easier to keep the freshwater tank where it is and put the batteries on the shelves.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Sep 8th, '21, 15:59

Hi Peter,

I am a highly visual thinker - I personally need to see things in order to logically analyze where they need to go.

My go to is to do a very crude drawing of the stuff that has to be where it is (ie engines and bulkheads) in something like MSpaint, then print off a bunch of copies and manually draw in all the things you want to add. Make a bunch of variations and then think it out......... once I find what I like I would then spend more time to do the drawing in an software. I don't think it is a requirement to make a full electronic copy as the hand drawings are probably good enough.

here's one of my crude drawings
I found a line pic of a B25 drawing
https://photos.app.goo.gl/CGvKtM573YcfZVm68
final
https://photos.app.goo.gl/6J6PvKyNGRTQ274m6

I've seen some here do the whole thing a lot more precise in google sketchup but there's a learning curve to that software, but it does allow you to get to exact scale. I did that for my doghouse and it took me a bunch of time to figure out
https://photos.app.goo.gl/LJ83SkkkgnH6XcnU6

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 17:13

That’s a great idea, thank you.

Snipe · Post by **Snipe** » Sep 8th, '21, 18:23

Pete I am keeping the boat very simple as you have said no generator. I will have a sink with fresh water using a bladder as yannis said they work great and are simple. I moved my batteries into the center bilge. To flood the battery box you would need like 13 inches of water in there. I installed seacocks with the option of crash valve. I also closed off the main cabin from the aft bilge. I will have three 2000 gah bilge pumps with high water alarms on all three.

EarleyBird · Post by **EarleyBird** » Sep 8th, '21, 18:57

Pete, excuse me for calling you Carl regarding the fuel tank question…my mistake. Though you say you have no interest in a generator, if you plan on fishing offshore it certainly has its place. Cooking and lights. Quickly, on EarleyBird the Generator is to port on a platform, batteries to starboard on a platform. Perko 2” Sea Strainers are between motors also on a platform fixed horizontally and will act as an emergency bilge pump (crash valve) if ever, hopefully never needed. To function that way open strainer basket cover. If you would like some pics, just ask. EarleyBird

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Sep 8th, '21, 19:49

EarleyBird wrote: ↑Sep 8th, '21, 18:57 Pete, excuse me for calling you Carl regarding the fuel tank question…my mistake. Though you say you have no interest in a generator, if you plan on fishing offshore it certainly has its place. Cooking and lights. Quickly, on EarleyBird the Generator is to port on a platform, batteries to starboard on a platform. Perko 2” Sea Strainers are between motors also on a platform fixed horizontally and will act as an emergency bilge pump (crash valve) if ever, hopefully never needed. To function that way open strainer basket cover. If you would like some pics, just ask. EarleyBird

Jim,

I'd like for you to post some pics of your crash valves and their location.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 20:26

Earleybird,

I don’t see myself doing overnight canyon trips. My days of all-nighters and coming off a lobster pot in the middle of the night are behind me. I have all LEDs which is plenty of light for early morning departures or returning in the dark.

While a microwave or electric skillet are nice conveniences to have and we’ve used them while camping on shore power. I’m okay packing cold food and sandwiches and not have that space taken up and have to service a generator. If I have a generator then I’d want reverse cycle AC.

I reserve the right to change my mind in the future.

Thankfully we’ve had a number of years with a decent tuna jigging bite. I’d like to try my hand at chasing white Marlin and bounce around looking for mahi.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 20:29

Ironworker wrote: ↑Sep 8th, '21, 19:49 Jim,

I'd like for you to post some pics of your crash valves and their location.

Bob Higgins has a nice set up on Resolute. I also want to set mine for an easy way to run antifreeze for winterization.

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.ph ... ves#p96091

Ironworker · Post by **Ironworker** » Sep 8th, '21, 20:35

Peter,

It sounds like you need to come on down to the Bahamas. My "run" to the tuna grounds is 6 miles. Although I admit it's a bitch getting up at 8:30 am to go fishing some mornings. It just doesn't feel right if we don't leave the dock by 9 or 9:30. We try hard to be back at the dock by 1 or 2 in the afternoon at the latest.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 20:56

Rick say the word and we are there. Took the family to Cabo the last two winters, precovid. Trolling for tuna at the mouth of the harbor and striped Marlin 3-4 miles off the beach. But it takes an entire day and just to fly over there.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Sep 8th, '21, 20:59

Peter

If you eliminate the internal strainers and use the Groco screens on the hull you can pick up some room between the engines.

I have two Group 31's spinning each engine. So that is 4 31's then a house battery all sitting on the two outboard shelves. I also have a 9 gallon holding tank on the outboard shelf.

I have a salt water wash down that shares a 3/4 inch thru hole for the toilet. I just T'd off the fitting.

Now if you want 120 volts you can always add an invertor for that pot of coffee or even the microwave. With that said I still have the original 18 gallon water tank and if I wanted I could add an additional flexible tank up front. The section with the holding tank also has a 3/4 inch intake for the toilet and washdown pump as well an 11/2 which was the original discharge point for the head.

The 9 gallon holding tank is iffy but that is all I can fit. Did not want a holding tank in the cabin. I would add a valve so that if you are offshore you can pump straight out, which is allowed beyond 3 miles.

Now if you doing this I would suggest one other thing that JR Haszard and I discussed the other day. Depending on what you do to the cabin, if you can cut an access port in the bulkhead for the engines. This way you can get at the fresh water intake pump from in the cabin without pulling the engine. Remove a couple of screws and bingo access to the front of the engine. On the other side you can do the same thing in the head. A little more work but you would need to remove the toilet, the Fiberglass dress plate behind the toilet and bingo access to the front of the engine.

Just some things to think about. Take your time and lay it out. You will see what works for you.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 8th, '21, 21:44

Any thoughts on a Raritan electro scan and eliminating a holding tank?

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 9th, '21, 16:41

battery placement statement incorrect will not be tight and not be wet -------i through we went over this battery placement a long time ago. mine are in place 15 years and still perfect without a hint of corrosion. weight must be down the centerline of the keel with no exceptions.i have my original batteries from 2005 so they are in the boat 16 years and still perfect and of course AGM batteries do not breath. BTW my front compartment is sealed at the main bulkhead and if the water goes over the battery boxes and four bilge pumps failed and at high throttle with crash valves also failed (i don't see how that is possible ) it means i am going into the life raft . a floating piling wet right thru the hull below the water line or i hit a mine. either way mathematically calculating the salt water level even with top of the battery boxes and level with cabin floor she going under.that you can take to the bank-----------abandon ship

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 9th, '21, 16:50

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 9th, '21, 16:52

photo is without battery box covers. i know Carl has his thinking cap on -----------------your are absolutely correct and a smart man the reality of the salt water coming over the level of the cabin floor (the height of the top of battery box) is rather mute because that would also indicate the main battery conection to the starter motor is 6" under salt water!!!!!!! unless you have 3126 cats.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 9th, '21, 18:33

bob lico wrote: ↑Sep 9th, '21, 16:41 …and of course AGM batteries do not breath.

True, they do not breathe, but they are vented with a one way valve to prevent bursting if overcharged. They are still a lead acid battery that creates hydrogen gas.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 9th, '21, 19:13

never saw that vent in a fiberglass mat battery.made by Odyssey. they appears to be sealed. i had one upside down in a box (not knowing) for a week with no leakage.so they must be a one way valve . venting is not even a through in the companion way of a 31 Bertram . every damm leaf or debris ends up going thru those seams around the deck insert.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 9th, '21, 19:21

the step into the companion way is on a piano hinge lift step and engine thru hulls, valves and crash valves are easily accesed to run fresh water flush thru engines or salt away flush and anti- freeze at end of the season

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 9th, '21, 20:22

The step in my companion isn’t stock. I have a flat deck from the engine bulkhead to the cabin bulkhead. I have a step floating above that which tied into the engine side panels. Makes my layout a bit different and an even better place to trap leaves.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 10th, '21, 06:16

Yes a one-way valve on your batteries and yes plenty of ventilation in the companionway. I have my batteries there too, although just regular ol lead acid starting batteries with a deep cycle in the middle for the house.

I mentioned as I thought I heard about putting them in a sealed compartment "inside" the cabin. I have no idea how much gas can be produced nor how much an area it can fill before becoming dangerous..or if it's even possible to be dangerous.
Thinking back to the vette, it had the battery right behind my seat in a pretty tight interior...but if I recall there was a knockout opening in the battery compartment.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 10th, '21, 13:03

Separate layout question as we rewire I’m looking to create a raised panel in the headliner to have easy access to the wiring.

I mocked up with some scrap a cut out that is 28”x48”. The inside would be an oblong Inverted V. The backside being 21”x48” the access panel to the back of the bridge and the front side 16”x48 would be my electric panel that would also be hinged fo access to the backside. Creating a simple 90 degree angle at the top of the V.

It would seem to me having the electric panel up in the headliner would create an easier, simpler, more accessible wiring layout then keeping it in the Vberth.

It also seems to make sense to mount a 16”x48” panel to the backside of the bridge for buss bars, fuses and black box items keeping everything neat and in one place.

The rewiring I did a few seasons back was a bit of a hack job so not concerned with using the existing panel and starting over.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 10th, '21, 13:31

the main electrical panel goes in the bulkhead wall of the starboard side of the V-birth . WHY because there is a 2" pvc. conduit from that point in the v-birth across the back of galley to the top (under the gunnel ) in the starboard engine compartment so any electrical circuitry going to the bridge goes right up the starboard pillar into the bridge area- and any electrical circuitry going to the deck area rides under the gunnel ------simple . i used a SS piano hinge so the electrical panel folds down for easy access.this area of the boat is really free space.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 10th, '21, 13:41

pull handle on top of electrical panel the panel folds down and bingo all wiring is at your fingertips and this location also is a straight run for your dock side electrical input on wall just in back of starboard engine box .

<a href="https://app.photobucket.com/u/BobLico/p ... ent&page=1" target="_blank"><img src="https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/ ... fit=bounds" border="0" alt="wiring"/></a>

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Sep 10th, '21, 13:48

dockside electrical in cockpit goes straight to main electrical panel in conduit.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 10th, '21, 17:09

Here is the mock up just laid in place

https://imgur.com/a/cdYIvsG

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 11th, '21, 05:45

Bob,

We have two lights in the V berth, two 110 outlets in the cabin and the fwd bilge pump. That is all the wiring that runs through the cabin. All other electric is either up under the bridge or aft of the cabin bulkhead.

The space above the headliner is currently unused, while the ares where the electric panel currently is could be usable storage space for family items and safety gear. That’s why I’m considering this.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Sep 11th, '21, 06:28

Peter,

You know your boat and how you and the family want to use it so I have little opinion on your layout. But just thinking instead o relocating what you have…is the space under the headliner conducive to storage and safety items? Thinking overhead bin on airplane for quick access.

Then again, I have my electric panel behind my door which is a pain as I always have that door open and hooked, access is slow and the lighting bad…having a panel front and center would be nice. Not to mention a panel without an extended safety cover is prone to having switch’s hit. Buddy had that on his Luhrs…open electric panel in salon, someone tossed a bag or it fell and flipped a breaker. I forgot if it was no electric to bridge or engine wouldn’t crank, but it was a few minutes of unneeded “oh crap” as we where out on the water when it happened.
By the next trip I cut a Lexan sheet with standoffs so it stood proud of the panel with holes in front so you could get a finger in to flip switch’s

Looks like Conversion project is underway…

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 11th, '21, 07:40

Carl,

Thanks for the advice, I throw my thoughts out there and sometimes there is a fine line between design/layout choices and dumb decisions. I have 8 offshore life vests taking up most of my galley storage and most of the v berth taken up by an anchor ball, bumpers and other safety gear. We tend to not keep personal items on the boat so the vberth is generally loaded up with bags when we go out. I don’t love climbing in there to check to see what’s on. I’m thinking you’ll see the electrical panel the moment you walk in the cabin, as well as the bilge switches and lights. It’s overhead so nobody will unintentionally touch it. Also want a VHF up there, if there is one thing my family knows how to do is hit that DSC switch.

The boat is blocked up as of yesterday and everything that’s not fixed in place has been removed. Our timeline is two weeks to rip everything we want out.

Snipe · Post by **Snipe** » Sep 11th, '21, 08:46

Pete I will be putting my panel right above the galley counter. Using blue sea systems 360 panel system. I am going to build it so it can be hinged so it can be easily accessed also I will be able to get to the legs of my hard top. Since there is limited wiring It won’t be big. The rest of the wiring will be on the fly bridge under the dash. I was planning on putting all the stuff I can fit in water tight electrical boxes.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 11th, '21, 12:07

Everything you’ve done so far is spot on.

CamB25 · Post by **CamB25** » Sep 11th, '21, 15:16

Love those cabinets!!!

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 11th, '21, 16:43

There is a reason all the 31s in Cabo and TSL. Glass in the windshield, move the head forward, strip all the fancy shit out and put the electric panel close to the aft bulkhead.

It’s simple, reliable and takes advantage of the lost window space up front. And when you come in from the cockpit you have a great view, easy access to food and seating while staying engaged in the action. Nobody needs windows on two sides when nature calls.

You don’t need every efficiency; simplicity and minimalism make the end of the day easy.

Jason is crushing it.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Sep 11th, '21, 17:02

I have two removable panels in the forward section of the headliner . These were in place when I bought the boat so I don't know if they are original.

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/307687/50966038

I added two access ports on either side of the rear of the cabin.

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/307687/50966036

Using these it is easy to run wires from either engine room up to the flying bridge without pulling down the entire overhead.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Sep 11th, '21, 17:53

Peter,

Someone cut access ports into the inside of my pilasters which wasn’t the prettiest way to do it but is functional. One way or the other a headliner won’t go back without an access panel. Regardless if I do or don’t move my electric panel.