How much is too much? $$$$$

[Ironworker]

I know this is the wrong group to ask how much money is TOO much money to put into a rebuilding a B31? I'm very interested in everyone's opinions. I know its a highly variable answer but what it yours?

I ask simply because I'm most likely crossing the line in the refurb of my B31. A repower with the recent Cummins price increases is now pushing 80 to 90K just for engines and gear boxes. Add in the other stuff associated with the repower and you're into another $40K. Paint, accessories, fiberglass work can add substantial $$$. Electronics is another 10 to 20K. Then if a fellow is trying to keep up with Earley or Lico in the pretty boat category then he needs have pro athlete $.

So where is the line....200K, 250K, 300K or just spend it all?

[Carl]

Good question Rick.

You also got the answer right on the nose, it is subjective.


For me, I’d start with what would you pay for a new boat you would buy in the same category. So what is that an Henriques, Cabo or maybe a Bertram 35? So that is the 400k starting range. At that point I’d say sure go crazy with a total Bertram 31 refurbish.

Or do I go comparable used boat…maybe that falls in the 1-200k range. At that point maybe motors and some paint to bring up the condition of your 31.


For me, it’s a boat that needed to be dependable, reliable and stay within my budget. I also refused to take out a loan for a boat at this time…which was an option, just not really for me. That meant running takeouts and me doing all the work myself…well most a mechanic friend helped by doing the wiring for me. I’ll spruce up the interior and maybe work on paint and windows in another year or two. Me, my need is just to go out and come back, not impress. At least not yet.

[scenarioL113]

It comes down to what people can afford or actually layout.

In Bobs case his Phoenix is always a work in progress. He is continuing to upgrade and make her better. I can not speak for him but I believe it is a labor of love.

In my case when it comes to projects it is always one step at a time. Get it to a point and then use it and next season go a bit further. I am on the fence right now weighing my options on a B31 project.

It also depends on what you are capable of doing yourself. If you are well off you can pay someone to do it and if not you better be knowledgeable in marine mechanics. I am the latter but am no master.

Snipe has a nice project going on right now and I am pretty sure he is in it for a lot less than the numbers you posted. Yes he is well above average in the skill level and his fiberglass work is off the charts!
Thankfully he has documented and shared pictures of the progress like the Hatteras project on this site.

300K plus is realistic to do a boat soup to nuts with everything brand new but like Carl said RTO's and a boatload of sweat and blood can go a long way to get a great performing and reliable boat.

I think a solid pair of RTOs with gears can be had for 30K if you get lucky, add 10K for shafts props and basic electrical work can go a long way on an old B31, add another 2500 for electronics and try to salvage everything else that comes with the boat that you can put off for a few years to make her look pretty... IMO that is a nice foundation on one of these boats for a "regular guy" to afford.

[Tony Meola]

Whatever you decide to spend, you have to be aware that you might not ever come close to recovering your money. Same can be said for buying a 400,000 dollar boat.

Walk through a boat show and you will find a brand new 30 foot center console selling for over 300,000. Now would you want that kind of boat. If the answer is yes then don't rebuild your 31, buy the center consol. But ask yourself this, are you ok spending a night offshore on that center consol and are you ok slugging it home 100 miles through 6 foot seas in that same boat.

Then decide can I afford to put 150 to 300 Into the 31.

So think about how you are hoping to use the boat then decide if the boat meets your needs.

[Snipe]

This is a good question for sure. In Bobs case I know when I spoke with him one time he said the boat will stay in the family. If that is the case with anybody putting lots of money into their rebuild then there are hopefully years of enjoyment ahead and memories to be made this will take the sting out of spending all of that money. In my case I am doing it slowly and paying for things as I go. I have lots of connections and save lots of money along the way and can still see that this is an expensive investment for sure. Figure out what you think you will spend and triple it lol! The market for a diesel powered 31 is kinda all over the place depending on fit and finish. As far as a new built boat these are priced crazy and still are not the iconic BERTRAM 31 !!! It also depends on what’s a good fit for you. If rebuilt I feel one could go another 50+ years easily. I have a son and hopefully one day he will take the reigns and keep our 31 going strong. We have had one in the family for 30 years already.

[Ironworker]

I originally posted the question as a general one that affects all of us. However, in my case, my initial investment in my boat was $0 as it was a project in progress and a gift from a good friend. I've got about $35K in the boat currently along with a alot of manhours, but now facing some substantial $$$ with a repower. I could go cheaper if I invested some time finding a couple of runouts and had them OHd. In fact, I've got a lead on a single Cummins thats been OHd but I'd need a twin. My issue is the boat will be used in the Bahamas where service and parts are few and far between. Reliability is important to me.

[Stephan]

I believe one of the greatest falsehoods is believing you know where the $$$ will end once you get started.
For the rest of us:
"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride... and if it occasionally gets a littel heavier than what you had in mind, well... maybe chalk it off to forced consciousness expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
- Hunter S. Thompson

[PeterPalmieri]

If your not worried about resale value and you want a great boat I think the sky is the limit. Especially if the other option is a new anything.

[John F.]

Recognize going in that it's not a financial investment that'll pay off. You're not going to get your money out of it when you go to sell--just like almost every other boat. So, decide how much you have, how much you're willing to lose, how much you want a B31 and what's important to you, and spend from there. I love my B31.

[Bruce]

I started with airplanes, then 29 years and hundreds of repowers and refits of boats and yachts, now I'm going on 8 years of higher end custom car building and I will tell you the one thing I have told all my customers over the years when they have voiced the same concerns as you have and that is if your worried about resale value or recouping your investment, stop now.

Pat and I did a complete rebuild of a 31 diesel conversion that cost over 300k back in the day. It sold years later for around 100k if I remember correctly.

I started in the car biz by building a 66 Mustang fastback for my brother, all new from the ground up including body with Coyote engine modified and dyno'd at 550hp with custom leather interior painted Good Wood green which is a 1967 Corvette color. Cost was 230k. It's worth 125k in the retail market, he didn't care cause he'll be buried in it.

I also built a 69 Camaro with a ZL1 drive train, custom corvette chassis with corvette front and rear suspension. Tricked out to the 9's. Had 375k in the car.
Got 78k for it at auction.

Car people are crazier than boat people.

You can't take it with you and if you save it, your ungrateful kids will get it from you one way or another. So enjoy!

[Ironworker]

Airplanes are my other vice. A guy can burn through some dough with a plane. Although I must say a 380 HP Cummins marine recon diesel is more expensive than an IO550B for my Bonanza. Something is seriously FUd with our economy in the US today.

[Carl]

The answer may be as simple as it's too much when you and yours stop smiling.

[jrmoro]

There have been a lot of good answers so far to this question. I would like to share my view & experience. I have owned my 1969 31' for 5 years. It had gas engines but was in good shape. I was getting a little annoyed with the nickel / dime breakdowns & was nervous when looking under the deck at years of patching form several owners. This year I decided to go all in & do a complete overhaul.

Unfortunately I do not have the skill or talent as some on this board. I live in the same area as Snipe & have been fortunate enough to go see his work in person. The pictures he post are great but she looks even better in person.

I am putting in new Cummins QSB's & am waiting on new deck & bait well from Hightide Marine. I know my refit we be in the 200k + area. I looked into purchasing another boat or even another 31. When I weighed the options it was obvious ( to me) that when my boat is done I will have the perfect boat for me & my family & I would not have been able to touch anything else for less than double the price.

As many have said, if you are looking at it from a resale side do not bother. I am looking at from the same camp that Bob has mention, my boat will be passed to my son one day.

I will post some pictures of my refit in the next few weeks.

[scenarioL113]

I started with airplanes, then 29 years and hundreds of repowers and refits of boats and yachts, now I'm going on 8 years of higher end custom car building and I will tell you the one thing I have told all my customers over the years when they have voiced the same concerns as you have and that is if your worried about resale value or recouping your investment, stop now.

Pat and I did a complete rebuild of a 31 diesel conversion that cost over 300k back in the day. It sold years later for around 100k if I remember correctly.

I started in the car biz by building a 66 Mustang fastback for my brother, all new from the ground up including body with Coyote engine modified and dyno'd at 550hp with custom leather interior painted Good Wood green which is a 1967 Corvette color. Cost was 230k. It's worth 125k in the retail market, he didn't care cause he'll be buried in it.

I also built a 69 Camaro with a ZL1 drive train, custom corvette chassis with corvette front and rear suspension. Tricked out to the 9's. Had 375k in the car.
Got 78k for it at auction.

Car people are crazier than boat people.

You can't take it with you and if you save it, your ungrateful kids will get it from you one way or another. So enjoy!

Everything Bruce said is 100% dead on balls accurate!

Many of us have similar interests (Old Cars, Old Boats, Guns, Diesels...and anything that is fun). This is why we know the numbers, market, and reality...

[Tommy]

I echo Frank's comment that Bruce's post is spot on. But the real answer is when you combine Bruce's real world facts with Carl's post: "it's too much when you stop smiling". The two posts sum it up perfectly: is it a "business" equation or is it a labor and passion of love.

[ktm_2000]

When complete I doubt my boat would be worth on the open market any more than the cost of the new motor and electronics, so the value of all my labor and other parts are lost if I were to want to sell it. I've owned the boat for 18 years and have no plans on selling so that isn't an issue to me.

I will end up with every component new inside the boat except the hull, and the parts to rebuild my boat are a little less than 1/3 the cost of a comparable new boat.

I'm not putting a $ figure on my labor because it would make me mentally ill if I calculated it - aka the other 2/3 cost of a comparable new boat.

Since I can do most of the work myself, like the challenge to learn and do different work than my day gig as well as get to put in my labor when I have the ability to do so thus spreading out the cost of the project, rebuilding my rig is an attractive proposition to me.

[bob lico]

there are two factors i see in the underlining of these post and that is if you thinking of selling make sure he is a boat savvy person . i can take a huge chirp transducer and put a hole in the bottom of the boat and a little 5200 and walk away or i can take just the transducer itself and make a reverse mold then cut the keel line exactly to the mold (2" thick) and recess the transducer then lay up layer after layer of biaxle and epoxy. one method is two hours the other a week of labor. does the buyer know what the hell he looking at ,probably not so building a 31 Bertram for yourself is strictly a personnel thing.my son has helped me from day one with the 31 Bertram and his favorite car we built the 71 corvette. i gave him the car and will leave him the boat, with this in mind i can throw hundreds of hours into making a revolutionary new rudder concept and not feel bad . the key here is once you repower the boat then take one project every winter and complete it.enjoy the following summer and plan and gather parts to start the next project.second factor planning does not cost a penny. the engine ,gears, shafts,struts, are one piece disregard shaft log completely and make your own.

[Ironworker]

Bob,

That's sage advice but where I live every day is summer!

[bob lico]

even better you don't have to heat the interior of the boat to work. great advantage to have a warm boat when doing fiberglass lay-ups .best of luck contact me for any advise.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

I guess we just all should have said the age old adage

"You know what Boat stands for. Break out another thousand."

What has been said here is true. But like Carl said you are fine as long as you keep smiling. It is amazing at how fast the dollars add up. I just started out with a diesel repower, did not go to the extent of others and after a point I stopped counting. God knows how much I spent in screws, nuts and bolts. I can say this more than I ever thought.

Then as I have said before, there is the well I might as well fix this while I am here.

At the end of the day what we are all basically doing to some degree is building a boat.

[DanielM]

Tony,

I had to laugh when I read “God knows how much I spent in screws, nuts and bolts”. When I redid my CC years ago, the little thing that seemed to really bug me more than it should have was my many, many trips to the local fastener company for SS hardware. Not a big thing, but d*mn they were proud of all those shiny little screws.

That and Imron paint. And filler, primer, & associated paint supplies. Our 40 year ‘mom and pop’ auto paint company closed up shop and retired shortly after I finished my boat. I joked with my buddy that their retirement was on my dime.

It adds up, even if you’re doing the work yourself. But if you like piddling around boats there isn’t much that fills that void.

Rick,

Good luck with the boat. She’ll be nice when you’re done, and ready for many years of service with those Cummins engines.