Model Year Mystery - 1961 B25s???

[HotSpot]

Hi all,

From picking up bits and pieces of Bertram history over the years on the forums, it appears that the documented vintage of my 25 Sport Convertible may be incorrect.

The boat is titled as a '63, but the hull number tag of 25-109 indicates that it's a very early build for the 25s (assuming that 25-101 was hull #1.)

So that got me thinking... when were the earliest 25s built?

It seems there is a lot of debate on when the 25s actually started production. The Bertram site mentions 1963 was when the new facility started making 20s and 25s, however there are a lot of references of 62s and even some 61s out there. Did Bertram start making 25s at the old site before the new facility was finished?

Here are some examples:
This mentions a 62 with a higher hull tag, for example 25-151.
http://www.bertram31.com/bb/bbs.cgi?noframes;read=72532

Here's another post on the THT site where its debated (by our very own Cam) that 25s started production in 1961.
https://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-fo ... ost6708621

I'm not sure what it really matters too much, but I guess it would be good to know from a historical perspective. Plus, I suppose I owe it something special at it's 60th birthday that may be coming up sooner than I think.

Anyone on here know for sure?

[Tommy]

HotSpot,

The head engineer at Bertram in the 60s and 70s was Lee Dana, and he confirmed to me that the hull numbers at that time began with the boat length followed by the hull #; and that the first production hull of each model was # 101. The original wooden Bertram hull named Moppie won the 1960 Miami-Nassau Race in April, 1960. The first fiberglass Bertam 31 (hull # 101) was "Glass Moppie" that won the 1961 Miami-Nassau Race. Jim Wynne entered the 1961 race with a Bertram 24 (the predecessor of the 25) powered by his new Volvo stern-drive invention. The earliest ad I could find showing the Bertram 25 appeared in the July, 1962, issue of Motor Boating Magazine, so my guess is that was the introduction year. I found a Popular Science article dated January, 1963, showing a test of the Bertram 25, and the lead paragraph states: "These Bertram boats are now made in three hull sizes - 25', 31' and 38". My guess is that your hull was popped out of the mold in late 1962 but was delivered late enough in the year that they titled it as a 1963 (not unlike the auto industry does today).

[Tommy]

Oops, just found an old ad in Yachting Magazine dated October, 1961, with a picture of a 25' Bertram and a 31 footer with the following copy: "The revolutionary new Bertrams will be on display at major boat shows. Top dealers will gladly demonstrate the Bertram 25 or 31 to qualified prospects". So this settles the question for sure: the Bertram 25 was introduced and was available in late 1961.

[CamB25]

My hull tag includes a date - 5/29/1963, below the hull number 25-437. I consider that the "born on" date.

[HotSpot]

Oops, just found an old ad in Yachting Magazine dated October, 1961, with a picture of a 25' Bertram and a 31 footer with the following copy: "The revolutionary new Bertrams will be on display at major boat shows. Top dealers will gladly demonstrate the Bertram 25 or 31 to qualified prospects". So this settles the question for sure: the Bertram 25 was introduced and was available in late 1961.

THE MYSTERY DEEPENS!


Great research
Advertising style from that era was something special. I recall diving through the rabbit hole of microfiche from old 50s and 60s Road and Track magazines in the university library (say late 90's) when I should have been studying. Loved looking at the advertisements. They were more entertaining than the articles.

"...Top dealers will gladly demonstrate the Bertram 25 or 31 to qualified prospects".

I wonder how well the word spread about Bertrams to the point where they were desirable over contemporaries of the day. Obviously the winning races would garner some acclaim, but how many people were into watching the Miami-Nassau and other boat racing? Was it big enough that casual boaters would know about it? More popular than today?

[HotSpot]

My hull tag includes a date - 5/29/1963, below the hull number 25-437. I consider that the "born on" date.

A born on date... now that's convenient!

This one has only the hull number marked on the center stringer near the cabin access hatch. It's repeated on the back side of the plywood cockpit side coverings and (I think) the cabin headliner as well, but no dates on the hull!

There is one additional piece of evidence that could indicate that it is older than '63. The single 45 gallon fuel tank tag is stamped with date of mfg of 1961. That could indicate that it is older, but it's also possible tanks could have been created in batches and sat on a shelf for a while. I regretfully can't find a picture of that at the moment, but here's the hull tag...




So, how many of these did they make in a year? Maybe it's possible to work backwards from Cam's 437... Ian Upton's was 151 and he believes it to be a 62.

[Craig Mac]

I have posted this before, perhaps some new members may know.

I have seen old ads (1961?) for 25's that show two configurations---twin I/O and twin straight inboards with motor boxes just like a 31.

I have come across one with the straight inboards----has anybody know of one?

[CamB25]

Single 45 gal tank? Never seen that before. I thought all the early boats had twin 40 gallon tanks. Any pictures?

[ktm_2000]

my B25 has a similar born on date, found under the hatch in the floor of the cabin. The same hull number was written in foot tall font on the inside of the hull underneath the carpet in the cabin.

All the documentation on my boat has it as a 1964 but the born on date is almost 6 months prior.

25-455
6-20-63
https://photos.app.goo.gl/d3FPbjWcxyBZpUAt7

[Joseph Fikentscher]

I have yet to find any labeling on my 1968. except for the ID Tag on the bulkhead near the berth door.

[Tommy]

Since we know Cam’s 25 was the 336th hull popped and it’s birthdate is 5/29/63, and Jim Wynne’s Bertram25 (although referred to as a 24) ran the April, 1961, race, we have roughly a 24 month time differential. Assuming a steady production flow (I know, not likely), approximately 14 hulls per month were produced. Since Hotspot’s hull was the 9th one produced based on hull #, it has to be a 1961. Assuming 14 hulls per month for the final 6 months of the year, there could be upwards of 84 1961 B-25s built. Yes, a lot of assumptions here, but one way to reconstruct history. And yes, I have way too much time on my hands...

[HotSpot]

Single 45 gal tank? Never seen that before. I thought all the early boats had twin 40 gallon tanks. Any pictures?

Just after delivery, before it was cleaned up.



I also have an image from some undated marketing that mentions that the 25 came with a 45 gal fuel capacity.

Are we allowed to post that sort of thing, or is it copyrighted?

[HotSpot]

I have posted this before, perhaps some new members may know.

I have seen old ads (1961?) for 25's that show two configurations---twin I/O and twin straight inboards with motor boxes just like a 31.

I have come across one with the straight inboards----has anybody know of one?

Take a look at Joseph F's facebook site link a couple posts above. Is that what you are referring to?

[Tony Meola]

I am sure it was copyrighted, but I have seen ads posted here before. That was so long ago, and several owners later, I do not think it would be an issue. By the way, the first 31 hit the public at the NY Boat show in 61. That show was held mid January, so I would say if that tank says 61 on it, it was built in 61. Worst case assumption is your boat was born on the last day of the year but I doubt it. I would think they easily had 9 or more orders walking out of that NY show.

By the way, back then offshore racing was a big thing. Just as the auto manufactures used the tracks to test out their new stuff, Bertram used the offshore races in the early days to test the new improvements in propulsion and hull design.

One of the big offshore races was held every summer in Point Pleasant NJ, sponsored by Benihana restaurants. Rocki Aioki was the owner and a huge offshore racer in his early days. Offshore racing tailed off in the late 80's to early 90's.

[Tony Meola]

https://www.soundingsonline.com/boats/b ... 25-express

This article says the 25 express was introduced in 1961 with a fuel capacity of 80 gallons. If you only have 40 then a tank might have been removed.

[HotSpot]

https://www.soundingsonline.com/boats/b ... 25-express

This article says the 25 express was introduced in 1961 with a fuel capacity of 80 gallons. If you only have 40 then a tank might have been removed.

Thanks for the link, Tony.

Here's the links to the advertisement that I mentioned earlier... The last one has the specs regarding the 45 gallon fuel capacity... Unfortunately, there's no date, but the model does have the rounded side glass of the earlier years. In fact, this model is pretty much exactly as mine is. Port side helm, sky blue hull (originally), with blue cockpit side coverings, and miles of woodgrain formica.

The THT thread where the pics are hosted: https://www.thehulltruth.com/boats-sale ... ation.html







Maybe the Moppies were thought of more as runabouts, and due to the nature of use, they only fitted a single 45? There's no evidence of any fiberglass work where the other tank would have been, nor is there any patchwork on the gunwale where the port side filler would have been.

[CamB25]

That single tank must have been in the early, early boats. Mine had twin tanks. Starboard helm. twin 110 volvos.

Do have just one fuel fill and vent?

[Craig Mac]

Joseph Fikentsche' s facebook page shows a twin inboard boat with v-drives and a single motor box.

In some early ads (1961?) they show a twin-engine straight shaft model with two separate motor boxes just like a 31.

[Tony Meola]

Cam

I would think, just like the 31`, they originally had the smaller tanks. Florida boats, then they realized us guys up North needed more fuel.

[ktm_2000]

That single tank looks exactly like one of the twin 46 gallon tanks my boat came with, maybe there was something wrong with the other side and it was removed?

[HotSpot]

That single tank looks exactly like one of the twin 46 gallon tanks my boat came with, maybe there was something wrong with the other side and it was removed?

There's no evidence of a missing tank. The unpainted fiberglass in the bilge where a tank would have been mounted shows no indication of modification/grinding/rework. There is also no indication of a previous fuel filler or vent on the port side. The glass under the port gunwale is one continuous piece, with no patches where a fuel filler could've been covered up. So, I'm almost certain that it never had a second tank. As the saying on this site goes, this boat is largely "unmolested".

According to that brochure, they did come with a 45 gallon capacity. So, it seems that hull 25-109 had that configuration.

Agreeing with Tony's thought... Unless Bertram planned for these 25 to be used for offshore fishing, 45 seems adequate for most day-boat uses. However, it does limit its versatility, which may have been a consideration in later builds, especially the heavier configurations, or larger engine options that came later. That brochure doesn't mention any other available configurations at all, so maybe at first they only offered the sport convertible model with a default volvo sterndrive engine package and the 45 gallon tank. Once they started offering additional configurations, additional fuel capacity was introduced.

[Tooeez]

In the early 70's, when I was in high school, I worked for a little marina that was a volvo dealer. There were still a few of those early type outdrives with the external boot around, and I think that those early 4 cylinder engines were rated at 80hp. The picture shows a single carb, and I seem to remember that the 110hp motors had dual carbs, and the 6 cylinder's had three. Anyway, if they were 80's they probably thought that they didn't need more than 45 gallons.

[HotSpot]

I just happened on this old thread while searching Bertram stuff on Google... Reminded me that I snapped a pic of the fuel tank tag earlier last season.

Here's the single tank's tag that shows a 45 gal capacity, and the tank mfg date of 11/3/61.





It does make sense that fitted with smallish 4cylinders, 45 gallons would be enough for most day boat uses. Currently, we have only slightly larger (2.3L) Volvo Pentas fitted. The range is enough for local boating, but we couldn't do any serious traveling without a larger tank.

[ktm_2000]

I'm guessing that fuel tanks and the grid system under the deck were improved as time went on. The pic you shared of your single tank looked an awful lot like my pic of the "46 gallon" fiberglass tanks that were in my boat.

Here's a pic of the grid system with the tanks out - https://photos.app.goo.gl/S8WEVk8qBxLsPuLx5

I deleted pics of my fuel tank off google, I have some old external drives that I backed up stuff on, I will look to see what pics I can find.