Hot day cold start issue

[QUOTA2]

Hope a gasser guy can help. Mercruisers with Quadrajets having hard starts after 3 days plus of not running. Next day no problem 1st turn and they will fire up, carbs rebuilt 2 -3 years ago, new plugs and caps and rotors, gas filters. Was thinking replacing anti-siphon valves?. Marina calling it evaporation no gas left in the carbs, time to replace carbs?. Tried different starting with throttles no luck. Gas additive?. Thought about shuting off gas valves after running?. Running out of options. Appreciate any thoughts.

[Tooeez]

Marina is probably right--I have the same thing happen after a week or so. It's easy to check: let it sit a few days, and then before you do anything take off the flame arrestor and look down the carb while pumping the throttle. If the bowl is empty little or no gas will shoot into the carb from the accelerator pump.
If you have electric fuel pumps, and they are wired correctly, you can do what I do: if it's been sitting for a while before I start I put each engine in gear and then hold the starter switch. The motor doesn't crank because of the neutral safety switch, but the pump runs until the bowl is full. Then back into neutral, 2 pumps of the throttle and fires right up. I have floscans, so it is easy to see what is happening--when the pump starts running the floscan pointer jumps up as the fuel flows into the carb, then falls back to zero when the bowl is full.

[Donmystic1]

Had the same problem with the port motor on my 33 sportfish.
If the boat sat for more than two days it was hard starting.
Knowing this I would shoot a small amount of hot start in the flame arrest or.
Fired right off every time.

[Carl]

I'm pretty sure for me it was not evaporation, but similar problem of hard starting over extended periods.

Reason I say not evaporation is the Flow Scan registered no flow for a couple extended cranks, no way fuel is evaporating that far down. I figured fuel pump was allowing fuel to slowly make its way back to tank. That or one of the lines, but I changed all those. I'd have changed the fuel pump but once started it ran flawless and heard those pumps on the 440's can be a pain if the lever was this way or that way...in retrospect I should have just changed them, or at least one of them.

Anyway...if motor did not run for over a week, starting wasn't going to be just hit the start button. So if it was awhile since boat last ran...I'd get to boat, do my startup check, sniff test then let crank 10 sec or so. Put some stuff away, if going fishing, start bring stuff out, after a few minutes I let it crank another few seconds...usually by now the flowscan was registering fuel and wouldn't be long before starting. Once one started, I let run a few seconds, try to knock off the choke, then go to the other which was right at the point of starting...did the same. If weather was cold or it was a several weeks...it might be 3 or 4 times cranking before fuel came up.

If I knew I wasn't going to use the boat for awhile...vacation, big job, bad weather etc...I'd shut the fuel valves at the tank before leaving. Then it could be multiple weeks of not running, open valves, hit the starter and the motors cranked right up immediately like I was between drift passes.

My problem was I always thought I was coming down tomorrow or the day after to use so didn't shut the valves and a week or two would pass...

[QUOTA2]

Thanks for the input, one guy at the marina told me he has been adding Marvel Mystery oil to his gas and thinks it has made a difference. Hey Carl, have you tried the shut offs just before the fuel pumps or just at the tank?. TY again.

[CamB25]

primer bulb!

My carb'd Yamadog 115 will not start after sitting for a couple of days without priming

[Carl]

Thanks for the input, one guy at the marina told me he has been adding Marvel Mystery oil to his gas and thinks it has made a difference. Hey Carl, have you tried the shut offs just before the fuel pumps or just at the tank?. TY again.

I had shut offs at the tank already...so tried once to see if it made a difference, it did.


As to putting shut off by the fuel pump...


For me to reach the area just before the fuel pump- -

- I'd have:
- to unbolt and remove pedestal helm chair.
- remove two top hatches
- stand on motor to lift engine box up a hair,
- slide it over a hair
- then lift back end up and onto the deck
- then get off engine
- stand behind the motor box facing towards the bow
- reach forward to one of the hatch openings
- pull back lifting motor box up on its end

- - so I had access to the side of motor with fuel pump and shut the valve.

Even if it wasn't such a pain to remove the boxs I'd have changed the fuel pump before adding another shut off valve.

It was something that slowly developed over the years...got used to it, knew what to do to get motors started after a long sit...then never was an issue after.
Having a boat for so many years when little things come up slowly and find a quick work around with no other issues...well kinda go with it.

That and I convinced myself cranking a bit was good as it got some oil to the top end. Not sure if a 10 sec crank once or twice did that or not....didn't notice on gauge...but I convinced myself it was a good thing.

[QUOTA2]

Thanks Carl, I have easy access to the shut offs just before the fuel pumps that's why I asked about them as opposed to the tank shut offs and wondered if one or the other made a difference. I'll try both separately.

[Carl]

I'm guessing, but having two shut offs will help isolate where problem lies even better.

I kind of made the assumption the ethanol was deteriorating the diaphragm in the pump...it's around the time I had an issue with ethanol. My gasoline/ alcohol rated lines turned hard and replaced those. But The problem slowly got worse...then kinda stayed at the same point for years.
When using the boat, it's a non issue...
When not using the boat...I don't have the time to stop and fix something that's not quite broke,

[Tony Meola]

primer bulb! My carb'd Yamadog 115 will not start after sitting for a couple of days without priming

Cam

Primer bulb on an inboard is a no go. Insurance would not be happy with that one. In fact, I know a lot of guys put them on diesels especially if using Tony Athens fuel set up, but I have heard a couple of guys ran into survey issues with them. I guess even on diesels they can fall into question.

[CamB25]

Yup, not a good suggestion. Replacing the mechanical fuel pump with an electric version would probably solve the problem:
https://www.holley.com/products/marine_ ... /712-801-1

[QUOTA2]

Cam, I think I asked the marina about installing electric pumps but for some reason they told me it was a no go can't remember why I'll revisit it.

[Carl]

Cam, I think I asked the marina about installing electric pumps but for some reason they told me it was a no go can't remember why I'll revisit it.

Just a guess- -


Fine?

Lawsuit?


It may fall into the category of yes it works...but when hose lets loose or...
boat fill with fuel and dumps it overboard...who put the electrical fuel pump in there without a______.

...dumping or something worse.

[Tooeez]

Probably because it's a PIA to do it right. You have to install a two terminal pressure safety switch next to your oil pressure sender. The hot feed wire to the pump goes through the normally open terminal, so that when the engine is running the switch is closed and the pump runs. If the engine stalls the oil pressure drops, the switch opens and the fuel flow stops. Without such a switch just what Carl said can happen: the engine stops but the fuel keeps pumping. The normally closed terminal is wired to the line side of the starter switch, so that when you engage the starter the pump will supply fuel to get the engine started.
Chevy small blocks made in the last ten years or so no longer have the casting in the block to mount a mechanical pump, so if you ever repower you'll have to go to electrics. I switched mine over to electric a few years before I did the engines so that I had one less thing to worry about when I pulled the engines. I have Carter pumps from Michigan Motorz that have worked well for me.

[Tooeez]

Wait!! My bad--the wire from the starter switch has to be wired from the LOAD side of the switch to the normally closed side of the pressure switch. If you put it on the line side it would defeat the purpose of having the safety switch.

[CamB25]

Interestingly complicated!

Another random thought is to run the electric pump in parallel with the mechanical fuel pump to act as a "primer", with a momentary switch.

[Carl]

Probably because it's a PIA to do it right.

PIA and alot of yard mechanics haven't a clue how to do it the right way.
I haven't really thought about it...but I didn't know.

MUCH better for a yard to just say no then trust so of the guys they call mechanics.

Across the oil pressure switch...Good idea sorta kinda.
I never like having boat shut down if oil pressure drops...I'd rather risk ruining a motor to get out of a busy ship channel or similar then have is shut down.
Give me a buzzer, a flashing light with a choice to shut down.

[Tooeez]

The idea behind the safety switch is not to stop the engine in case of a loss of oil pressure--it's to stop the fuel pump in case a fuel line breaks causing the engine to stall. With the pump just wired to the ignition switch as long as the switch is on, engine running or not, the pump has juice--if the fuel line to the carb is open because of a break it just keeps pumping fuel into the bilge.
If the engine just lost oil pressure it would keep running as long as the fuel in the carb bowl lasted, which might be long enough to do real damage. That's what's nice about having two engines--it's not likely that both stop running at the same time!

[Tony Meola]

Tooeez

Check your fuel line plumbing. If you break a fuel line, you are loosing both engines. The way they plumbed them from the factory, a break in one line causes you to loose the vacum in both lines and the fuel drains back into the tank and the second engine can not pull the fuel.

We found that out the hard way.

[Carl]

The idea behind the safety switch is not to stop the engine in case of a loss of oil pressure--it's to stop the fuel pump in case a fuel line breaks causing the engine to stall. With the pump just wired to the ignition switch as long as the switch is on, engine running or not, the pump has juice--if the fuel line to the carb is open because of a break it just keeps pumping fuel into the bilge.
If the engine just lost oil pressure it would keep running as long as the fuel in the carb bowl lasted, which might be long enough to do real damage. That's what's nice about having two engines--it's not likely that both stop running at the same time!

Yes I understand the need for the fuel pump to shut off when motor is Not running, as in the case of a ruptured fuel line.
I understand the oil pressure switch idea is when oil pressure is lost to the motor the switch can alert operator by way of alarms the pressure has dropped, that I am 100% for.
In some boats the loss of oil pressure was wired to turn off the motor...to me that is a huge issue and I am against a boat being setup that way.

If fuel pump shuts off when oil pressure drops...in essence your shutting down the motor, fuel in bowl will last a second or two at cruise.
A sending unit goes bad, wiring, contacts, oil filter bypass kicks in or an oil filter burst...all cause a big pressure drop stopping engine.

No, I do not have an answer as to a better way..aside from maybe a fuel pressure switch...but kinda the same thing, only different.

This is all one reason I was so content with my 440's for years. Old mechanical stuff tends to have issue creep up, give you a chance to diagnose and fix..in a pinch jury rig. These new electronic ones...your running 100%, then your not running. Buddies 454's had high pressure pump crap out, computer, module to name a few. Run great...not running and not much to play with...but lots of time to think coming home on one motor.



Yes two engines are great...last year a bud was cruising around on his new to him boat as he enters channel for harbor he pulls down the throttles, both engines immediately die. Being the guy he is...he figured out to toss the anchor sometime after he drifting onto the beach...on an outgoing tide. In his defense, beach is only 150' or so...
Getting off track, sorry...

A New to him boat the fuel gauge had hung up and running on plane had all the fuel in the back by the pickups...coming off plane the fuel leveled out below the staggered pickups causing both motors to die.

We have a single tank in our boat...bad fuel can kill both motors. Or do something like what my boats prior owner did...use silicone to seal the plates on the top of tank. He told me he was cruising along and motors started sputtering then died. He said the fuel was loaded with little beads of silicone...or whatever sealant he used.

And of course a good hit wiping out both sets of running gear...or a rope is darn good at that too.

Yes...two motors can be good and better then one, but far from a fail safe.

[QUOTA2]

Thanks for all the help, a separate note anyone have a recommendation for re-power in NJ.

[Tony Meola]

Thanks for all the help, a separate note anyone have a recommendation for re-power in NJ.

Where are you and what engines are you interested in?

[Carl]

Sorry we got off topic abit...kinda happens.

How did you go from hard starting after extended periods to re-power?

Seems to be alot of middle ground?


Fuel not getting to motor isn't a change the motor issue in my mind...
You'll get lots of info here, but we are not at the boat to actually see whats happening...or not happening.

I have no idea about your yard or your yard mechanics...while some of them can be incredible, others work at a marina yard because they can't get a job as a mechanic anyplace else...or a job in general. And just because they don't know what they are doing...doesn't mean they won't give it a shot or offer an uneducated opinion.

I say that having been around marina's for years as a boat owner and a machinist/supplier of underwater hardware dealing directly with the "mechanics" and what I have heard at times boggles the mind. And what boggles it even more is why some people continue to use them...they are all that's available, only person that showed...the cheapest.

If the people your using are drawing a blank...consider finding someone else.




Not sure if this was brought up...but fuel lines, even ones marked for ethanol can deteriorate. I had "fairly" new lines that were rated for ethanol that turned hard. They lost the seal at the barbed clamped fittings and no matter how many times I cut back and re-clamped I could not pull fuel. I was ready to change fuel pump when a buddy came by and said...change the hose. I argued for a bit, then pulled a piece I keep in the spare parts hatch, bypassed the filter and flow scan right to the fuel pump. A couple cranks and it started.

[QUOTA2]

Tony, I'm in Baywood Marina Brick. Carl, I will be changing out the hoses next season been in for about 5 seasons.

[Tooeez]

Tony, I never thought about it, but you're right: the original setup, with both lines going to one fitting on top of the tank, would allow a break in one line to kill the suction in the other. Anyway, when I replaced the tank I had two separate fittings made, each with its' own pickup. The only thing now common to both engines is the fuel itself.

Carl, can't argue with anything you say. And while I have had one engine get me home at times, I have also lost both at once a few times (including from a line in both wheels!) I agree 100% about the old mechanical stuff--if you pay attention, it will almost always tell you a problem is coming early enough to do something about it. And that reminds me, I need to start a new thread . . . .

[Tony Meola]

If you are going diesel, then contact John Lane at Forked River Diesel. One of the best Diesel Mechanics around. The only issue he is busy. So if he tells you 6 months figure on 9. He handles Cummins, Yanmars and Volvos. So pick your poison. He does not do gas.

Ray Belanger just had his boat repowered by John. Check with Ray to get his opinion.

[QUOTA2]

I would stay with gassers

[QUOTA2]

Took carbs apart found the std side with water in it. Separators clear not sure how water could have gotten in. Port side had water laying on top of the flame arrestor but the ladder sits over it so I got some washers to hopefully keep the water out can't figure out the stb side with no openings...GREMLINS!

[Tony Meola]

Do you have Racors as the primary and secondary spin on filters? If you have secondary filters, take them off and check them. Re set the bolts for the ladder with silicone.

[Carl]

Water can do it...


I used to keep a rebuild kit/gasket set for my carbs on the boat for years...No way for water and dirt to get in...but at least once a year I had to pull carb and clean...or pull, turn upside down over a bucket and shake (not proud of it...but worked maybe 25% of the time) Anyway...one day for whatever reason we had those disposable, aluminum pie plates on the boat when I was rebuilding the carb.
I got to thinking and after carb was back on and running...I grabbed a pie plate, inverted and placed over the flame arrestor...gave a little squish adjustment and that was the last time I ever rebuilt the carbs..I did have to get the occasional new pie dish. Yes I was laughed at about the pie plates...but then again as my coolant overflow I had a Bartel and James Wine Cooler bottle nested in between a couple hoses. Motors are sitting outside my shop and that bottle still sits where it has been for over twenty years. I did it as a dig to my buddy who had just special ordered two coolant overflow tanks and took a couple hours to make room to mount them. While he did that I kept the girls happy feeding them drinks all day as I gave my motors a tune up. When he was done he came over, he was so happy...best money I spent...no coolant in bilge...at that moment his wife took the last sip of her wine cooler...(remember how popular those were...) I looked at bottle, asked if I could have...pulled the overflow hose up, into the bottle and pushing it down into a little space. Yeah, your right, good idea, no more coolant in bilge.
Hope you found your issue...would be nice!