300 hp cummins, trolling speeds? JP, Bob Lico?

[CHolgerson]

Hello Everyone,

Dad's 31 went in the water yesterday without incident. The boat is a 31 bahia mar, that is heavier than most weighing approximately 16,000lbs. 300 hp cummins. She is turning 4 blade DQX wheels I forget the specifics. I believe it is a 2:1 gear.

The boat currently gets 3000 rpm at WOT, turning 30 knots. With one motor in gear at idle the boat is too fast for striped bass trolling. I think with different props the boat will get a better cruise and WOT speeds but the dockside handling would be very aggressive.

How is everyone getting their trolling speeds down without hampering your cruise and wot speeds while spinning these big wheels? Trolling valves are not an option for us?

This was not an issue with the previous 31 because the yanmars had 1.5:1 gears and spun smaller diameter props. we could cruise 30 knots and had a reasonable trolling speed for striped bass. WOT was almost 34 knots.

[Charlie J]

trow a couple of 5 gal buckets over the back

[bob lico]

i am not going to bombard you with questions however it is important to establish the engine specifications before giving any advice. when dealing with Cummins 6BTA engine we must concern ourselves with three criteria, engines produced before 1992 (Cpl. 970) they were rated at 300hp and 250,210. this was Cummins entry into the small diesel world with a totally new design as opposed to antique 505/555/904 (mooring anchors). not much help for the early years or i should say not cost effective to bring to today's standards. next big year is 1994 we have the "diamond series" a big step forward namely fuel injectors size (eliminated overheating cylinder head) and Bosch fuel injection.2006 and above is the "storm block" Cummins 6BTA-M3 became the best diesel in the world.i don`t want to advise anybody with 2005 and older Cummins in 330, or 370 HP. 210/220/250/270hp i can help you.2 to 1 gear is the wrong ratio for Cummins /ZF IRM in a 31 Bertram. hard to work around that fact. every prop design i suggest is going to have a faster idle speed than you want. we can reduce wot speed and increase maximum fuel economy cruise speed, hopefully, these are not vintage 1989/90 300 hp CPL 970 engines.

[CHolgerson]

Hi Bob,

They are 1990 6bta 300 hp cummins. Now I am wondering if they are in fact 2:1 gears.

[CHolgerson]

Hi Charlie,

I hope all is well. We never tried the bucket trick to slow down. We only use that one to wake someone up when trolling for tuna.

[bob lico]

the gear ratio could be 1.75 but the use of a ZF 220- IRM with a 2.0 ratio would indicate the PO. purchased a used engine out of another boat and just used the gears that were on it like a 38' or larger or heavier.

[EarleyBird]

Trolling Valves. I believe are likely the realistic way to effectively slow your boat for Striped Bass trolling if your looking for 3 knots give or take a few tenths. As stated a few previous times I have 270HP Cummins in the EarleyBird, with ZF220A 1.53:1 reduction with over 4000hrs. We spin 20”X 22” 4 blades with a medium cup. At idle (600rpmz) both motors she’s over 5 knots. On one she’s 4 or better. Flat calm days we put one in neutral/or shut off, the other in gear with the trolling valve engaged. I can then dial in 3 knots, again plus or minus a few tenths. Crank up the wind or current, same scenario, one neutral, one in gear just add a little juice,ie RPM. Works well trolling tubes, spoons, or umbrella rigs....but that’s another story
Jim EarleyBird

[Carl]

It is not so much the wheel size, but the pitch.

Overly Simplistic way of thinking about it:

12" pitch, boat goes 1' every time the wheel makes 1 rotation.
24" pitch, boat goes 2' every time the wheel makes 1 rotation.

Your high gear reduction slows down the rotation of the wheel...so when you want to go fast you need more pitch, which in turn increases your idle speed.

One option is to reduce the pitch on your wheels which will both slow your idle speed and your top speed, BUT then add cup to the wheel.
Cup does nothing at low speed so you keep the lower idle speed but as you spin the wheel faster the Cup kinda acts like increased pitch. That will allow you to get back some of your higher speed performance. Remember the word "some".
I know Bob has some other wheel tricks to get more performance...but thats out of my wheel house.



Another option is go back to small boat days and "Ski" Props.
Normally you wanted to zip around at a fast cruise but then didn't have the power to pull a skier out of the water quickly...so you put your reduced pitch "Ski Prop" on. Now you could pull that skier up instantly.

Done with skiing and tired of loping along with the motor screaming, you switch back to your cruise wheel.

That was a long drawn out way of saying "Trolling" or "Bass" wheels.
Have a set of wheels that you put on at the end of the season for the Fall run of Bass, these will be reduced pitch wheels so you can troll slow for Stripers, but you'll be running back to the dock at a slow speed with motors cranked up; leave those wheels on for the Spring Bass run.
When your done with bass fishing and ready to run Offshore or make a trip to a Bertram Rendezvous you put on your Cruising wheels, they are setup to get you where you want to go fast...wheels should be just fine for offshore trolling as those guys need a bit more spunk.

Aside from that its a Trolling Valve, bump motor in and out of gear, change the trans ratio or put tabs down and drag some gear behind you.

[CHolgerson]

Thank you for all of your input. It is greatly appreciated. Hope to see you out there soon.

Regards,
Chris

[bob lico]

you have to establish the Cummins engines you have however if they are indeed vintage 1990 CPL 970 we have to treat them as 250 hp max! never exceed 2600 rpm. i will teach you a step by step procedure on how to reduce the engine idle.number two putting a 5 gallon off the transom is totally useless I tried two 7 gallon chemical buckets ---- nothing. I tried a 4' drogue off the starboard while fishing off the port side. then went for trolling valves @ $2500.00 with my labor of course. in the full engage position, the boat slowed to 4 knots with one engine running. the good news is (with large rudders) you can troll all day on one engine at 5 knots for tuna and the fuel gauge will not move. you know all about that Son of A bitch Sir Issac Newton and his laws of relativity well when you make all kinds of prop. performance improvements then you throw 1583 pounds of torque into gear a bucket won`t do a thing SO we reduce the idle, and run on one engine then the good news i zig-zag and in and out of gear for bass makes the Mojo, lures, bunker spoon drop to bottom then rise over and over to keep away from bluefish overhead.BTW if they are indeed 1990 vintage you should have Nippondenso fuel pumps check and get back to me.

[PeterPalmieri]

There is nothing I loath more then pulling wire except maybe not fishing. that being said I do own a couple of wire line rods and occasionally have broken my own rule. Even with 454s it is tough to get down below 3 kts, especially if you've got current or wind to your back. I tend to put one motor in gear for about 5 seconds and then coast in neutral for about 10 seconds and then repeat with the other motor. This process over the course of an hour is way worse then it sounds, but is effective.

I know a guy who'd probably sell you a couple of wire line rods for a good deal.

After Bob's engineering marvel, I still think he found a decent fish finder and a well stocked tackle bag can get you just as good results. And he's bagged some nice fish over the past couple years.

[Carl]

There is nothing I loath more then pulling wire except maybe not fishing.

Funny, I find trolling wire comfortably satisfying.

The way I see it is just about anybody can put a fishes real dinner under their nose and entice them to bite...

...but to get a fish to bite a Big Chunk of Steel you punched out, bent and tweaked to swim just right; to have it towed behind a boat on heavy wire line at just the right speed while at depth by reading the poles action; to get spoon to swim just off the bottom, yet not connect with bottom nor ride too high over the fishs head...now that is a challenge. A couple guys at the club stopped using Mojos as it was just too easy, they likened it to bait fishing.


Yeah I know...fighting words or a stirring of the pot.


Sunny all day, just getting ready to head to boat early get the next set of beds in...walked outside to find out its raining.



Bob-

Guess I'll find out in next installments...but how low can you get the idle?

AND whats the deal with low speed idle running and the 6bt's. Manual says to avoid long periods of idling at all costs.

[EarleyBird]

Quick reply Carl. Trolling spoons on wire, old Reliable style spoons is an art. Many probable never heard of this place the Shrewsbury Rocks or Red Church off NJ. You had better have a good sounder and quick crew. Many a rig has been hung up there. But like you said it’s fun. 3 knots!

[Carl]

Shrewsbury Rocks...that is about as far as I'll travel for Stripers.

I like between the houses..between Romer Shoals and Westbank Light houses...great little patch between the channels.

Most times I am my crew, but this boats pretty easy to fish short handed, grab pole and bring back to helm to check, let out.

[CHolgerson]

We have caught our fair share of trophy sized striped bass dragging wire. I am the one with the canyon tuna fishing disease but Dad likes nothing more than dragging spoons along the beach. He is really good at it. I think he is just humoring me when we run the 31 to the canyon.

[JP Dalik]

The old 31 swung a 20 x25 four blade Michigan wheel with a number 5 cup; only in extreme conditions could we troll that boat for bass without the trolling valves engaged the engines were 2001 330hp Cummins with 1.5:1 zf220 gears. 5.8kts in gear both engines 4+ with one.
You can just troll mojos on braid or plugs and be fine around four knots or invest in valves and pressure gauges and get really frustrated adjusting them for up sea down sea blah blah blah.
I know the Bahia moon is a 270 boat and trolls fine on one with no valves but I think he is s 20x22 wheel.

Hope this helps

[bob lico]

trolling for bass is a very small part of the fishing season.i cannot get myself frustrated as to the minimum speed of my boat.thanks to peter, charlie i started to learn livelining for big bass. during the season i go out and look for the idiots in the center consoles chasing the active pods of bunker with cocktail bluefish usually on top .i place my boat 1/4 to 1/2 mile from were the bunker went thru, engine off drifting with no boat traffic and set up two liveline rods one with the bunker dorsal fin cut off .this is how we tagged three 48 to 51 pound bass last year. i troll with bunker spoon or Mojo and sometimes umbrella rig when i have invited guess or fares and we have to produce multiple keepers. one very odd scenario occurred last year and that is a part of fire island beach extends the sand into the Atlantic ocean for 3/4 mile and produces sandworms. they hatch in November each year. the Furuno computer/chirp can tell you the bottom material as you travel over it, so you can actually see the mud changed to sand underwater and no kidding the chirp actually shows the sandworms hatching. obviously, the big bass goes wild with the easy food, so we match the hatch and jig right among the big guys. i am not in the arena with Peter and Charlie j but i am learning.you have to take the good with the bad and that is the boat has a perfect troll speed for tuna with 9 rods out and running on one or two engines in idle depending on with or against waves and current. huge rudders carry the boat perfectly straight so Chris the first question aside from the engine specifications do you have extended rudders to hold her straight running on one engine?

[pschauss]

After all of the references to trolling valves in this thread I looked up to see how they work. If I understand the description correctly, they work by effectively letting the clutch in the transmission slip. Doesn't that put premature wear on the system?

[bob lico]

not only premature wear but you could actually burn out the transmission if you raise the rpm of the engine as to go on plane or most likely forget you have trolling valves engaged. most installers use a red light above the pull/push cable to indicate trolling valve engaged.

[CHolgerson]

The boat has oversized rudders. And it is well rigged to troll for tuna. The previous owner was a very accomplished canyon fisherman. The first fish this boat killed was 600lb plus mako winning the Oakland shark tournament.

[CHolgerson]

I am still fishing predominantly out of Shinnecock NY, while the boat is in Delaware with my father. I will be splitting my time between a 2018 50' Henriques and a 60' Ocean. We have run up to 16 rod spreadson the big boats when in the canyon.

[bob lico]

600 pounds wow that is over the "top".real hard to be humble after fishing a 2018 Henriques 50'

[CHolgerson]

This will be my third season on the Henriques, making it a 2017. It is one hell of a boat with c18 cats. Wot speed is over 40 knots and it has a gyro. I still enjoy fishing on the bertram and spent a lot of time out there roughing it with Brewster back in the day. He taught me a lot and made me a better fisherman and introduced me to the shinnecock crowd. I am a lucky man, but still consider myself a humble man.

[Carl]

My understanding of trolling valves is that it does not allow the clutches to slip.
When using the trolling valves there is no drag / rubbing or wear taking place.

From what I understand is the trans is out of gear and the valve diverts the fluid to run past the clutch plates dragging them along, kind of like a turbine, but not really. A little fluid gives a little rotation, more fluid more rotation...depending on engine speed hydraulic pressure, temp and amount of valve opening dictates the speed of prop turning. It's why they have to be played with, as all that changes.

You can raise rpm of motors to a certain point with valves but beyond that the fluid is pushed out from between plates by centrifugal force and then the plates would come together, touching and wearing extremely fast.

[JP Dalik]

Your right Carl. ZF manual indicates you can safely operate the 220a up too 1100rpm with the valves engaged.

Guess you cod do that if you down sea at one setting and a little more throttle to go up sea. 1100 seems like allot but that was stated in their book

[Carl]

most installers use a red light above the pull/push cable to indicate trolling valve engaged.

Using only a Red light scares me, as the times I would forget the valves are engaged is the times I'm so distracted, in the middle of something that a light is not going to remind, that is till its too late.
Also a Red light always on becomes normal and not so much an indicator.
Just thinking how many times I have been trolling with one motor shut down, then tried to maneuver quick...usually a ship or passing boats wake. I know it is just gonna have us rock'n n roll'n, pick'n up stuff throughout the boat. So jump up on the helm, push throttles up, spin wheel only to get a funky motion...then "oh yeah" One motor is down. Luckily she responds pretty well on one motor...and luckily the other just needs a push of starter button to come alive.

For me, my plan is to go with a manual latch that gets flipped from trolling valve cable to throttle in order to engage the valve.

[bob lico]

carl on this one i have to say differant strokes for differant folks. those 1" diameter red lights above the cable are annoying as hell and you are constantly reminded the damm trolling valves are engages.keep in mind 783 pounds of insant torque is availuble when you hit one motor in a emergency that is the same as two of your 440 chrylers in addition to huge rudders no proplem she turns on a dime.i understand you 100% two weeks ago we observed a white spot in front of us at 45mph in the center console -------a full size refrigerator floating about 6" above water only in NY.

[bob lico]

BTW Carl one of the huge advantages of using Twin Scan gauges is as soon as you jump on bridge to move boat or do anything you cannot avoid seeing the twin Led lit indicators on the gauges showing one engine not running because gauge panel has power so alternator (voltage output) will be in default on the engine not running.trust me you will definitely know your on one engine!
i went up Hudson River for big bass and good GOD with all this rainfall we were zig-zaging in and out of floating debri and trees.

[Carl]

White Fridge floating low in the water. Is that out of the ordinary for you?

...zig zagging around debris in NY Harbor after a rainfall...really, say it isn't so?
It used to be like that all the time in the 80's

Wait till you try running in the Raritan and it looks like a lily patch as far as the eye can see, but instead of lilly pads it large pieces of debris.

Or the up and downers...those will lift the hairs on the back of your neck. Telephone poles floating vertically, just bobbing above the surface for a few seconds.

Heavy rainfall, high tides clears out everything up rivers. UP RIVERS...Rahway, Raritan and South River flow into the Kill Van Hull and the Hudson coming down, yes lots of debris...

That was the reason for the Tower on my Express. A reason fast is not paramount to me.

The area is tremendously better these days, but running here an eye must always be kept out for "stuff". And be careful as the small looking stuff can be real deceiving...till its too late.


I cannot say what it will be like when new motors and gauges go in, but running mine its second nature to step up and put a hand on controls, push them forward while looking back at riggs. Or try to maneuver quick without checking gauge panel.

Or to spew off instructions to Doreen when I'm in the cockpit tending to lines

Or a favorite...when fishing by myself and have a good one on, put motor in neutral. While fighting fish I want to jockey boat a bit so walk up to helm and push into gear...the motor that is not running. Then wonder why nothing is happening...till the "oh yeah"