Gas Water Heater

[Yannis]

Some of you may find it absurd, but during early June and after the 20th of August the shower water gets crispy.
To avoid having to sing all the opera pieces I know while taking a shower, I installed today a gas water heater.
I put a protective metal "cage" all around, so as to be on the safe side.
I have to go get all the bits and pieces to connect it properly, but I already feel ...upgraded !!

[Navatech]

Absurd?!... I don't think so... We all like our creature comforts... Also, AFAIK, marinas in Greece aren't known for having great communal shower facilities... Also, AFAIK, you do a lot of anchoring for overnight stays...

One thing though... Gas is VERY explosive... AFAIK the domestic gas used in Greece is LPG which is heavier than air... IIRC the recommended install is to have the tank outside of the cabin with a low vent overboard... Please tell me you had the gas parts professionally installed...

In any case, if you only use this for showers consider shutting off the tank whenever it's not in use...

[Yannis]

Nav, thanks.

By the way there isn't much to it. I already bought all connectors and hoses and I'll get to it myself; I've done similar connections in the past with a lot of success !!
What had me puzzled for a while was to get the correct splitter so that with one bombola I could supply both the water heater and my galley stove, the problem being that there are now 2 types of regulators; the old one that you secure with a spanner with a left thread and the new one, which I have, that you just press on the bombola and it secures with a click. Anyway this is all taken care of now.
I need to talk to you, yet better skype if you can, so that I can get some info about living in Holland. Stef will most probably go to Leiden and I would wish some advice, could you please send me your skype coordinates? Thanks.

[Navatech]

What had me puzzled for a while was to get the correct splitter so that with one bombola I could supply both the water heater and my galley stove, the problem being that there are now 2 types of regulators; the old one that you secure with a spanner with a left thread and the new one, which I have, that you just press on the bombola and it secures with a click. Anyway this is all taken care of now.

FYI, "bombola" is "tank" in English... <grin>

Talking about the tank, PLEASE tell me it's NOT in the cabin!...

I need to talk to you, yet better skype if you can, so that I can get some info about living in Holland. Stef will most probably go to Leiden and I would wish some advice, could you please send me your skype coordinates? Thanks.

Check your PM...

[Yannis]

Thanks! I knew bombola was a Brit term which I learned from an Irish friend in an era long gone...

Of course its not in the cabin; its under the bathroom sink...

I will check, thanks.

[Navatech]

Thanks! I knew bombola was a Brit term which I learned from an Irish friend in an era long gone...

Yeah... Right... And I'll go to an Italian friend to teach me Greek?!... Bombola is NOT a British term...

Of course its not in the cabin; its under the bathroom sink...

I hope you're kidding because that's NOT a good place!...

[Yannis]

Bombola is NOT a British term...

Sure, it might not be, but she was calling it like this so I assumed it would be English of some sort!!

I hope you're kidding because that's NOT a good place!...

I know, but it's the best I can do.
LPG smells like rotten meat and you can almost immediately tell if there is a leak.
I check on it everytime before use and...I am a born optimist!

[Navatech]

I know, but it's the best I can do.
LPG smells like rotten meat and you can almost immediately tell if there is a leak.
I check on it everytime before use and...I am a born optimist!

First thing first, LPG doesn't actually smell... Neither do propane or NG... The rotten egg smell is an additive so that people would know they have a gas leak... However, there have been cases where the additive wasn't mixed well or not enough was used and people ended up with non-smelly gas... The thing is that LPG is heavier than air and it will accumulate in your bilge... The best place would actually be under that new mermaid resting place you were having made a while ago... Out in the open and with an overboard scupper hole in close proximity...

[Yannis]

Nav,

You're right. My chosen place is NOT the correct one. I knew that from the beginning.

The two reasons that made me put it there (except for the obvious practical ones) are, first, that INSIDE my boat in the summer it is almost always like a tornado scene. All windows open, the wind blowing quasi permanently, I have pictures showing the galley towel falling off its hook from the wind. This, in my mind, minimizes (although it does not rule out) the possibility that the concentration of leaked gas will be so faint that it will no longer be combustible.
Second, we ALWAYS had gas tanks for cooking in our home as kids, and it was almost always me who did the connection. Therefore I'm particularly trained to sort of make sure that the connection is OK and thoroughly carried out. This, together with my testing, for every new tank, that it smells like rotten egg alright, assures me that even in the extremely improbable event of a leak, I will smell it. Combine this with the fact that I always shut the valve when it's not in use, further minimizes the risk.
I know, shit happens, but like I said, in my mind this is such a low risk that I'm willing to take it.

IF I had gas engines, I would NEVER carry gas tanks either inside or outside. The reason I changed boats, from my Whaler to this one, was exactly this. I could NEVER come to grips with the idea of having an open flame (for cooking or for any other reason), over 500 liters of gasoline under my feet. I was particularly afraid, NOT so much of the LPG tank leaking, rather I feared the gasoline tank leaking...THAT would be a guarantee for a trip to the moon...

[Carl]

I have propane for BBQ and Forklifts...I have had found bad connections on both...one had a bad valve so it couldn't shut again, slowed, but not shut. Guess that's why they say not to open with a wrench... What is interesting, trying to figure out how far away is far enough away, in a somewhat crowded area.
That is the bad part about doing tank swaps...you get to deal with other peoples messes. Rental pickup guy, told him and he said he'd mark tank, but my bet is it goes back into rotation.

[mike ohlstein]

What had me puzzled for a while was to get the correct splitter so that with one bombola I could supply both the water heater and my galley stove, the problem being that there are now 2 types of regulators; the old one that you secure with a spanner with a left thread and the new one, which I have, that you just press on the bombola and it secures with a click.

You cant spell bombola without BOMB.........

[Navatech]

we ALWAYS had gas tanks for cooking in our home as kids

Right... And I'm willing to bet you 1/1000 odds that those tanks were outside and that except for the last yard (meter) or so it was a rigid copper pipe... There's a reason for those precautions...

I know, shit happens, but like I said, in my mind this is such a low risk that I'm willing to take it.

I'm assuming your boat is insured... What risk is your insurance willing to take?!... Should the brown stuff hit the oscillating thingy they're going to be looking for ANY reason not to pay out!...

I would NEVER carry gas tanks either inside or outside.

I very much share your dislike of gasoline on board but, having said that, LPG, Propane and/or NG are far worse to have on a boat... There's a reason why there are very explicit gas installation regulations for boats!...

As Mike points out, you can't spell "bombola" without spelling "bomb"... And bombs go BOOM!... Anyway, you're an adult so I'm not going to argue anymore about this... You have been presented with the facts and now it's your decision... I'm nobody's nanny...

[Yannis]

Alright.

Nav,
During the very early years (about 10) our home's gas tank was in a cupboard right next to the stove, inside the kitchen. Big kitchen. That was in the 70's.
Then (as my parents got probably more sensitive to danger) we made a hole in the wall and passed the tube outside, but there was never a copper "last meter" connection.
As a matter of fact I do not know of anybody having a last meter copper connection in Greece.Not even restaurants which use pure propane (pure propane you are not allowed to have for house use in Greece). Yet, the gas disasters are almost non-existent.
You can regulate everything, just for the sake of regulating, what it ALL boils down to is that you make your life more difficult.
Here in Europe, for example, we DO NOT have to specify that something dangerous shown on TV is not to be " repeated at home". Nobody will sue you for showing something dangerous. You should have common sense, period.

Then, the insurance has to find your remnants. What's the use of an insurance if you're not around anymore !

Mike said that a bombola booms. He probably meant that gas is dangerous. Which we all agree on. Take ALL the precautions you want, it still booms!

Carl,
I explicitly mentioned that I do my own connections. I know things can go wrong sometimes, but you can certainly minimize the risk by being present and being on top of things.
What you're saying about rotation... I know very well, though. It's common practice here. Caveat emptor ! (Latin, for "buyer beware").

Mike,
I would make exactly the same comment to add some flare to to the discussion! I like it !

Overall: There are places in this world where NOTHING is regulated. There are others, where people think that by regulating EVERYTHING it's the solution to all problems.
Still, there are others where many, but not all, things are regulated. Where YOU decide if you put 1, 2 or 3 clamps around your exhaust tube so that it doesn't come apart and you drown, or, how you make your gas connection. I love these places; or else I would have to live in Switzerland...where the extreme happens. You drive fast, beyond the speed limit, and the guy IN THE CAR driving beside you calls the police because you break the law and presumably you put his life in danger. And the police act as if THEY caught you speeding! Based on the word of a citizen. Nice...

[Terry Frank]

Can get speeding tickets in Germany also based on the word of anther driver. Not right.

[Yannis]

Terry, what a world !!

I thought of this additional thing:

In Greece, but also in a great number of countries, I don't know about the US, the house appliances stores sell PERFECTLY legally these gas heaters (or however else they are called).
These are the size of a medium size dishwasher, whereby the front is the heating element usually made by a whitish ceramic surface with a lot of little holes, and just behind it, inside this appliance, rests a 10 kg or so gas tank. To operate it, you turn on the flow switch and press the piezoelectric button. Gas escapes then through those little holes, it ignites and the whitish ceramic surface becomes red and emits heat that heats up your room.
Question: How on earth can you settle with the idea that, first, the gas tank is INSIDE your room, probably 1 or 2 meters away from where you sit, second, that this tank rests just 20cm behind an OPEN flame, third, that ALL connections are rubber tube,....., and still be legal!

There are quite a few deaths from the operation of this kind of heaters EVERY year. But, guess what....NOT from a gas tank explosion ! Rather, they are caused by a wind current that put the flame out and the gas continued to flow inside the room, killing by poisoning the people who usually are asleep (nice peaceful death by the way !!).
Later models are now equipped with a security valve that stops the flow of gas when the flame is accidentally put out. STILL, though, the old models are operating (I repeat) perfectly legally and it rests with the owner to decide if they are safe or not safe to use.
Now lets see, why a gas tank on a boat can be considered ILLEGAL, because it's inside the cabin. Enough with regulation.

[Carl]

Yannis-
Legal, illegal or around here it would be against Coast Guard Regulations...that is one thing, something like that I'd share just so you know. Like we are driving and speed limit is 55, but go over that overpass--- limit drops to 35 and a cop sits just down the road waiting. If I'm in the car with you, I'll lean over and tell you. Do what you want with the info. We get stopped, we get stopped, we get through, we get through...all good with me.

If an Actual safety issue I truly believe is true...I'll be hounding you telling you every which way I can because I do not want to see a friend get hurt or killed...nor do I want them to have to live with the possibility that someone else got hurt. I believe that is the reason your hearing what you are hearing from me...us. 99% of the time all is well and good...that leaves 1 in a hundred having a problem.


In a home...gas leaking down low does not present a big issue most of the time...houses don't have bilges with automatic pumps, motor starters and such...so a leak just dissipate. It's different.




Now from my point of view...gasoline is fine in a boat provided the required precautions are taken. Many see a boat with 200 gallons of gasoline as a floating bomb. Gotta say, not me..,I'd love to go diesel, but safety is the last reason in all honesty for me to convert. In truth, I know of several boats that have caught fire....the only one that came out fine was my dads and he had a gas boat at the time and VERY GooD Friends...put out a Mayday one night while trolling and his boat was surrounded by a bunch of his fishing buddies jumping on board with fire extinguishers.

So moving on...I just put a unit very similar in my place of business. Used to have a large, gas hot water heater that went south(aka-died) I had a hard time getting to the room that had that water heater so bought a small 4 gallon electric...7 guys washing up does not require much water. Stuck it under sink and tied it in. Huge improvement and gained lots of space...that is IF I ever get that old heater out of that room.

[Yannis]

Carl, thank you.

I'm now concerned about an issue perhaps more important than gas tank positioning....
The fact that this water heater is made to burn american propane which is illegal over here, hence you cannot buy it.
Generally speaking, the warmer the climate, the lesser the % of propane in the tank. Actually, the mix in greek tanks is 80 butane 20 propane. I wonder if this different mix requires different nozzles (or whatever else) and if that is the case, I'm not sure I know what to do. One idea is go ask my gas guy but, assuming that his verdict be correct, any manipulation might render the guarantee obsolete.
I remember that I HAD to change the nozzles on my domestic gas range from LPG (the gas in tanks) to the LNG type, because we use natural gas at home (courtesy of Mr. Putin). You canNOT operate any device with the wrong nozzles because it would eventually be destroyed; I know of one such case that resulted in the destruction of the unit.
I wonder if the different mix in LPG requires the same nozzle substitution.

[Navatech]

Yes, different gases will require different nozzles... That's because different gases require different air mixes for perfect combustion... You should be able to find the correct nozzle in a hardware store... And replacing the nozzle shouldn't impact the warranty...

[Yannis]

Great news, thanks Nav !

[Navatech]

Great news, thanks Nav !

Always welcome... What I forgot to mention is that these nozzles are pretty much standardized... All you (or the person serving you) needs to know is the thread of the nozzle (can be measured off the existing one) and the nozzle hole size (determined by the gas used)... Just bring the one you have with you to the hardware (or gas appliances) store...

[Yannis]

Nav,

These are 3 pics of my water heater; the first shows the under side with the connectors and the other two show the guts of the beast.
Can you tell me WHERE to find and remove the nozzle to take to the gas shop to change into butane/propane specs?
Thanks !

[Navatech]

Nav,

These are 3 pics of my water heater; the first shows the under side with the connectors and the other two show the guts of the beast.
Can you tell me WHERE to find and remove the nozzle to take to the gas shop to change into butane/propane specs?
Thanks !

I'm really hesitant to give advice on this based on just a few pictures... I suggest you look at the manual... If you don't find the information there see if you can find a parts map specific to your model on the internet... Generally speaking it should be somewhere along the gas line after the main valve and before the burner... Otherwise, take the thing to your gas guy...

[Yannis]

Thanks,
I'll first take the pic to the gas guy !!

[Yannis]

Well, after a few tours around the city having visited various gas shops, trying to figure out what's what, I concluded that there are just two types of nozzles.
The nozzle compatible with Natural Gas and the nozzle compatible with LPG.
This latter, is good for BOTH pure propane and butane/propane mix. There are no different nozzles for varying LPG mix ratios.
Therefore, and while I keep my fingers crossed, the nozzles inside the water heater are good to go.
To verify the above, I will have to check that the flame is all blue and does not get orange/red in its tip.
Also, the regulator for my range is identical to that of the water heater, so no need for different pressure regulators either.
If you pay some attention, you will be able to hear my sigh of relief...

[RobinsBright2]

Space heaters also come in handy if you have a room in your home or office that lacks heating ductwork, is poorly insulated or is otherwise difficult to heat.