fuel tank

[ford351c594]

So for the last 8 months boat has been hemmed up getting new motors installed and was ready for big sea trial yesterday and we made it all of 100 yards..... fuel tank apparently is delaminating and clogged the new quad fuel filters. Or something of that sort is happening.

So my question is who out there has done this before on a B28? How expensive was it, and did you go with aluminium or something else? Custom made or does someone make them?


I am not a fiberglass guy. So while I can be very involved in the mechanical and paint and electrical aspect, this is something that is going to cost me unfortunately.


One last thing... it appears as though the rear floor is going to have to be cut out.... has anyone made it removable like the front half after this process? Is it strong enough to do so?

Thanks for the help

Ryan

[Yannis]

Ryan,

What rear floor? Are you talking about the lower part of the deck? If so, the whole deck is removable anyway.
Please specify. Thanks.

[ford351c594]

yes the back half of the floor. only my front half over the engines is screwed in and then the screws are covered by the engine covers and the fire extinguisher.

the back half of the floor over the fuel tank appears to be one solid piece.

I suppose it would be easier if the boat was here and not at the shop for me to go look at it.

[Navatech]

the back half of the floor over the fuel tank appears to be one solid piece

It's logically going to look like one solid piece... Look for screws around the edges... My whole cockpit deck comes out when a few screws are loosened and the caulking is cut...

[ford351c594]

ok so drove out to the shop and took a look at it. It does screw just screw in. Next question. The original fuel tank.... after floor is removed how does it come out? fiber glassed formed in and has to be cut out, just sits in place, or is it epoxied in? I assume aluminium is the best replacement? I also assume at this time I can upgrade over the stock 160 gallon? Thanks for the help again.

[Tony Meola]

http://bertram31.com/newbb/viewtopic.ph ... val#p30287

Ford do a search for fuel tank removal. Go to the last page and work back. I found this for a 28, there are others.

[ford351c594]

thanks that was most informative. I have a 160 gallon tank now and I am glad to know I can move up in size as the last few times I used a fuel bladder on the bow to get home...... not pretty at all........

Also good to hear it is not the end of the world and sounds like something I can do.

However, the price for that tank is scary high. I have a few local highly reputable guys that are quoting in the 600 to 1000 range for aluminium with a coated inside. ( not sold on the coating part yet)


Is there some hidden advantage to using a fiber glass other than originality?

[Tony Meola]

Fiberglass is not a cheap tank. If you are putting gas in it, it needs to be able to withstand at a minimum E15 gas and E20 would be better. If you can do it, it will then last forever if done right.

Aluminum has a lifespan if there is any type of water held against it. Lets call it 10 to 15 years. If you go aluminum, I would get it powder coated and then make sure the install is done right. I might even coat the bottom with something like Rhino liner. Then you probably could get 20 years or more.

The reason for coating the inside would be to protect it against the ethanol fuel causing water to form in the tank speeding up corrosion.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[Yannis]

In our boats, and more specifically the 28 that I know, there is absolutely no way you can keep the tank from salt water contact on the outside, be it the top or the bottom or even the sides.
If anyone can guarantee a dry tank, this is a breakthrough and please let me know how its done.

Ryan, $ 600 to 1000 for a tank isnt all that expensive I should think. The question is HOW much bigger can you go beyond the 160 gallons without blocking your way to the rear bilge pump and ram and rudder shelves...

[Waytooslow]

Figure an aluminum tank will run about $10 per gallon to build. Shipping coatings and installation is of course extra.

[Tooeez]

Yannis, when I replaced the tank in my 28 I left the bottom 8 inches of the glass tank in place, and had the aluminum tank made to fit just inside it. I then foamed it, and ran fiberglass tape around the edge of the glass tank to the aluminum tank to prevent water from running down the sides. It gives me a glass "tub" that protects the aluminum from the bilge water. Condensation does gather between the tanks, but that is fresh water and is sucked out from time to time through a small access port I left at the front end, between the tanks.

[mike ohlstein]

Aluminum tanks should be coated with coal tar epoxy prior to installation. Properly prepare the metal so you get good adhesion.

[bertram 20]

removed my fuel tank a few years ago whole rear deck will come out in one piece and you will have plenty of access to the tank had to cut mine out even after all tabbing on sides was cut it would not budge ended up pumping out gas and filling with water while i cut off the top and then started cutting the sides in sections.a little bit of a pain in the ass but not that bad .If your getting prices of 600 to 1000 that is crazy because i was quoted twice that amount by people i knew to have one made.I also think Hightide marine in florida makes Ethanol safe fiberglass tanks but not sure if they still are but they are very expensive. You will def need to coat tank with the above mentioned things to help it last good luck

[Navatech]

However, the price for that tank is scary high. I have a few local highly reputable guys that are quoting in the 600 to 1000 range for aluminium with a coated inside. ( not sold on the coating part yet)

Actually, $600 - $1,000 for an aluminum tank is VERY cheap?!... Are these guys USCG certified for gas tanks?!... If they aren't and if the brown stuff ever hits the oscillating thingy you might have a problem with your insurance people... As for the inner coating, I wouldn't know... Never heard of it and I'm wondering what it is and how they justify it... One thing, make provisions for dual returns... If you (or a following) steward ever wants to convert to diesel...

Is there some hidden advantage to using a fiber glass other than originality?

I would think that the main advantage would be being immune to all kinds of corrosion... Having said that, making fiberglass gas tanks is a highly specialized skill... Standard resin is NOT totally impervious... Which is why fiberglass boats require a barrier coat... So a special tank resin has to be used...

[Yannis]

Tooeez,

I understand what you did, a tank in a tank, so to speak, at least partially. You probably left the old tank portion that is between the stringers.
Is the foam you put between the old and new tanks waterproof? I remember in my old Boston Whaler days, that a crack anywhere in the inner shell of the boat would eventually lead to a soaked foam.
What is the capacity of this new tank?
Thanks.

[ford351c594]

As for the inner coating, I wouldn't know... Never heard of it and I'm wondering what it is and how they justify it... One thing, make provisions for dual returns... If you (or a following) steward ever wants to convert to diesel...
.

The product is norther fuel tank coatings. I remember the stuff now from my days at Ford. It is purple. It was very commonly used in the aft tanks on 350's - 550's due to the road mist getting in the fuel tank. It is actually pretty good stuff but I am almost sure it was for steel tanks.........

Here is a link

https://www.northernfactory.com/SPECIAL ... R/RW0125-1

[ford351c594]

also as far as being certified that is a great question..... I'm down in the shrimping world of southern Louisiana and this is just the guy that everyone has used for like 60 years between him and his dad..... I suppose I should ask that.

[Tooeez]

Yannis, the foam is supposed to be waterproof--its' all sealed behind the glass now. Anyway, it's been 10 years with no issues so far. The tank holds 150 gallons.

[Yannis]

Thanks.
I cannot squeeze in more than 550 Lt. From bone dry to overfill. I wonder how you can do more than that 145.3 gl. Especially in a tank in a tank. Let alone 160 and 170 gl that others claim to carry. Beats me.

[ford351c594]

Has anyone used http://www.speedytanks.com/


They know the deminisions of our tanks and no questions asked. USCG approved and the tank comes coal tar epoxy dipped with their specialized Bertram install kit.

She even told me the easiest way to get the tank out is with a pressure washer. Cuts right threw the foam, she said the guys fight the hoses more than the foam.... unsure if it works, but I will let you all know.


Last question... she asked it I had 160 or 220 gallon tank... I have the 160, can the boats be upgraded to 220 or is that what is in the 31's?

[Yannis]

Ford,
I looked into your attachment where, at some point, it says that stainless tanks are NOT approved by USCG, for gas boats.

Last year, when I thought I had a problem with my flaking glass tank ( I have diesels) where also I had a gooey substance in the bottom and filters, I posted pics etc and asked info about a new tank. To my amazement, NOBODY could advise on an SS new tank because, as I just NOW realize, most have gas, therefore aluminum or glass tanks!
Here in Greece where almost everyone has diesels, they all have SS tanks. To the point that alu tanks are practically unknown. Not fabricated !

If anybody with Boston Whalers remembers, I think my old Revenge 26 (with two X 140 gas outboards) had a SS tank! Were the USCG rules changed since?

[ford351c594]

This is not SS its aluminum. They make SS for potable water. I wouldn't even think of a good reason to use SS unless your fuel tank was stored under water maybe???? I know SS when welded is prone to tension or flex cracking later on down the road.

[ford351c594]

also just looking around on the website.... Atlantic Coastal Marine is on our links page..... speedytanks.com is Atlantic Coastal Welding.... Atlantic Coastal Marine's website is also no longer viable..... possibly the new website????

[ford351c594]

so...took floor out today. Finally got boat back from the new engine installs. They look great but I still have to address the issue of the new risers being to tall. probably going to need to lift the engine cover section about 2 inches...

However up to this point I was under the assumption the tank was installed via foam... guess I am wrong or someone else fiber glassed it in? We all know what assumptions make of us.

Is that correct? They are fiber glassed in? If so thinking of just cutting top off and dropping in the 155 gallon moeller tank. Looks like it will be a perfect fit...

Also, I will post some pictures tomorrow, does the top of the tank have supports for the floor or did someone add those as well?

[Tony Meola]

If it is the original tank it is not glassed in. I have never removed mine, but others here have. I do remember someone saying they took wire like piano wire, and was able to get it between the tank and the hull and saw through it.

One of the 31 owners in my marina used a couple of wood wedges and hammered then in under the tank until it popped.

You should be able to cut away the adhesive and get it out one way or another.

[Raybo Marine NY]

i have only done 4 tanks in 31's, but every one of them were pasted along the bottom to the sub floor, no foam
some eventually pop loose, one we had to cut to get it to come out, sub floor is usually rotted by now anyway
Remember when you cut the lid off the tank you also have to remove the monel baffles which are held in place by over 200 rivets

i think the bulkhead placement is a little different on the larger tank boats, maybe they tweaked the height a little too
height change gains alot of capacity but you have to watch your clearance for hoses , a 36x48x20 tank versus a 36x48x25 tank difference is almost 40 gallons

its kind of interesting how different countries use stainless fuel tanks but the USCG frowns upon it
I have a noosa cat here built in Australia and it has 60 gallon stainless tanks we are replacing for capacity with 125 gallon tanks

[Yannis]

Raybo,

It may be that in the Med, there are practically no gas tanks, except for the 20-30 liter orange plastic tanks for small outboards.
The ONLY gas tanks that are made when building the boat are the ones for use in BIG inflatables; I really don't know if they are SS or aluminum, I suspect SS though.

[ford351c594]

accross the top to the bulkhead behind engines. looks like one layer of heavy



across the bottom one layer of heavy and up bulk head. No foam. same at back



me just hitting with a hammer and chisel very little effort to get in. Think that is all that is holding it in??

[ford351c594]

also, didn't take a picture of the top, but it has 3, 1x4 runners of some type of sturdy wood across the top of it. I assume from looking at pictures that is not normal as well?

[Raybo Marine NY]

Mahogany 1'bys with fiberglass tabbing here and there and or thru-bolts are typical of bertram construction

Your tank is pasted down and tabbed along the edges, getting it to break loose might take an hour or a day

[ford351c594]

so... popped the top today and wow! I've looked at a few pics on the web and haven't seen one this bad.....



this is where I stopped today. hosed it out and cleaned the bilge out.



I'm going back to look for the tank inside a tank post someone made before I cut any more out.

[ford351c594]

also, man you 31 owners are luck to have that extra space out back. there is no room to do wedges on a 28....

[Tony Meola]

YOu can thank Ethanol

[ford351c594]

http://moellermarine.com/wp-content/upl ... -29-16.pdf

so in talking to my local dock guy he said I would be crazy to not use these?


Any one have any experience with these? Cross linked permanent ( basically plastic ) fuel tanks?

[Tooeez]

If you do the tank inside the tank like I did be sure to make a drain for condensation between the tanks before you bed the new tank in. I tapped a 1/4 pipe plug right into the glass tank on the bottom aft end. When the boat is hauled and blocked with the bow up I remove the plug and let any water drain out (if that water froze between the tanks it would surely break the aluminum tank). If I was doing it again I would drill another hole from the inside of the front end of the old tank right through the aft engine room bulkhead, tap the tank for a nipple and cap it on the engine side. That way when the boat is in the water and nose down at rest the water could be drained.

[ford351c594]

so decided against the tank and tank and today was nice so decided to spend some time cutting and prodding.... just leads to more questions. lol

so in the pics above I was about 2 hours committed. What I did today took me longer to get the tools to the boat and I was super surprised....





started here.

decided to just cut it with a reciprocating saw and one of those new fancy vibrating cutters against the bulk head.... took maybe 10 mins to get to here...



now curiosity has gotten me.... can I get the bottom out..... another 10 mins with the help of my trusty crow bar.....




so my question is..... was that piece of wood supposed to come out with the tank. LOL Can I just yank it out as well? I plan on adding a coosa shelf on top of stringers for new tank to sit on. should keep tank well out of the bilge.