Bottom job

[Al C]

I got a bottom job at Holtz before last season and when the boat was pulled this is what it looks like.
Holtz has been stringing me along since December so with the season approaching it now looks like its up to me to fix this mess.
I'm not sure if I can just sand and paint or will I need to remove all the paint down to the barrier coat. I have done some exploratory sanding and the paint doesn't flake off easily but does pop off if I use a scraper. I would sure hate to do it again next year.

[Amberjack]

Al, did you see the boat bottom painted before it was launched?

[Al C]

This would be the before picture

[mike ohlstein]

Looks like it sat on a beach during a week long hurricane.

[Al C]

Actually it looked better

[Yannis]

What a beautiful looking boat!

To me what I see is just normal.
All boats here are having a new antifouling double coat each and every year, preceded by water blasting upon withdrawal from the water (when their bottoms come to look very close to this), and just before re-entry in the Spring they are lightly sanded, without necessarily the need to expose the gel coat, just to create a new bonding surface, then coated and splashed.

As I see these pics, I think that either you have had some exit on a sanded beach, or your waters provide more friction, or its a devil fast boat.
Whatever the case, I still find this very normal!

[Al C]

Yannis
Thank You. Boats here can see 2-3 years with only minor touch up if a quality paint is applied properly. My boat is in a slip 6 months a year no beach landings and definitely not normal for it to look like this.

[Navatech]

I got a bottom job at Holtz before last season and when the boat was pulled this is what it looks like. Holtz has been stringing me along since December so with the season approaching it now looks like its up to me to fix this mess.

"Bottom job" is kind of ambiguous... In my mind a "bottom job" means the works... Meaning soda blasting or otherwise removing the accumulated layers of bottom paint all the way down to the gel coat... Followed by two coats of an epoxy water barrier followed by, at least, 1 signal coat (blue would be good in your case) of an ablative antifouling followed by, at least, 2 coats of ablative antifouling in your choice of color (black in this case)...

I'm not sure if I can just sand and paint or will I need to remove all the paint down to the barrier coat. I have done some exploratory sanding and the paint doesn't flake off easily but does pop off if I use a scraper. I would sure hate to do it again next year.

Assuming you had a "real" "bottom job" I would scuff up the existing antifouling, do one coat of blue ablative antifouling and finish with 2 coats of black ablative antifouling... Note that ablative antifouling doesn't "like" to be out of the water...

[Al C]

Navatech

It got the works, boat was at HOLTZ For repair after Sandy. It had floated away with the dock with the surge. It came to rest in a nearby marsh and the bottom was blasted so they could inspect it for damage.
What concerns me is they might not have applied the bottom paint soon enough after the barrier coat which didn't allow the paint to adhere properly. If thats the case I'll be at it again next year unless I remove all the paint.

Al

[Navatech]

It got the works, boat was at HOLTZ For repair after Sandy. It had floated away with the dock with the surge. It came to rest in a nearby marsh and the bottom was blasted so they could inspect it for damage.

If so, follow my suggestion above... Personally I'd pickup 2 "home depot" guys (make sure they're sober) and let them do the sanding... All they have to do is scuff the existing ablative antifouling... They do NOT have to go down to the water barrier... Certainly not to the gel coat... One thing to keep in mind, it's best to use the same ablative anti fouling...

What concerns me is they might not have applied the bottom paint soon enough after the barrier coat which didn't allow the paint to adhere properly. If thats the case I'll be at it again next year unless I remove all the paint.

I'm unaware of any such requirement... Maybe a special system was used?!... Even so, such a requirement doesn't make sense... It's a very common procedure to scuff the remnants of the last coat of ablative antifouling and then slap on new layers... Very often the "full" treatment is only done every 5 years or more so a system that would require the "full" treatment every year wouldn't survive commercially......

[Tony Meola]

Al

Not sure about the new Interprotect, but in 86 when we did ours, they did not call for a hot coat. That is the coat put on while the interprotect is still tacky. We put ours on the dried Interprotect (5 coats) and it is now what 30 some odd years later and that did not happen. I have some pealing from time to time but that is from our using the hard paint early on. We moved over to ablative about 10 years later.

If you saw my bottom this year, all you would see is some flaking, but would see the hard bottom paint under the part that flaked off. This year is just a touch and go job.

For some reason you did not get adhesion.

Have you been able to talk with Tom Holtz? He does pop in here from time to time.

I would get a light soda blast and see what I have. Worse case is after the blast, two coats of interprotect then repaint the bottom. If they did the restoration, and you paid them they should help you out on the bottom. I don't think their margins run that tight.

Do they do their own soda blasting or do they hire someone from the outside? If they do there own, and you figure the full cost to do the bottom right is around 4000 (I remember when it was 3000) they should be able to do the whole thing at their cost which is probably around 2500. If they go outside they it will probably be higher.

They should be able to make good on that, and not take a hair cut on your restoration unless their pricing on that job was off and they lost money.

[Yannis]

When we coat with antifouling, mainly non-ablative for speed boats (otherwise if you apply ablative a/f to speed boats, you end up with no a/f at all, by the end of the season), you are told that you have between so many hours to so many days (2-3) to splash (depending on the brand used), otherwise the a/f dies on you and it loses its anti fouling properties.
So, irrespective of whether you have used your boat much or little, the minute you pull it out and it dries, the properties are lost. Whether the color still looks nice or not, is a secondary issue, the fact is that even if your boat looks nice and freshly painted you essentially have a nicely painted boat with NO more antifouling properties; hence the need for a yearly 2 coat application (preceded by a water blast to get rid of the salt and a sand paper rub to create bonding conditions for the new coats).

I have been advised by a friend to go ahead and bite the bullet by doing the "copper coat". THIS one, just because it is inherently a very slowly ablative coat, and also, just because copper is oblivious to whether in or out of the water, it does not "die" on you when you pull the boat out for as long as you want. The only obligation is that after 5 or so years you give it a nice sand paper rub and apply one or two new coats and off you go for another 5 years, with renewed guaranteed antifouling properties.

To prove that this "copper coat" IS the best anti fouling agent, is that when you mention your desire to go with it to the marina people, they all take sour faces because they know that you will not be a "customer" for antifouling applications for a loooong time.

PS: Two more reasons we almost never use ablative a/f are that it pollutes the boat surrounding water even when the boat is tied up, especially dangerous to people swimming around the boat, and second, because you end up with blue toes and finger tips every time you accidentally touch it near the ladder, when climbing up after a swim.

[Al C]

Tony

They used Seahawk tuff stuff barrier coat and according to the web site you have 24hrs to apply the bottom paint if not you need to sand or apply another coat of barrier.
As far as speaking Tom Oakes goes he has been doing a fine job of stringing me along since December. It went from "we will make it right" and than promises of restitution, now he has gone silent no response at all. I am surprised I thought he was a better person.

Al

[Yannis]

Al, come here...

[Navatech]

They used Seahawk tuff stuff barrier coat and according to the web site you have 24hrs to apply the bottom paint if not you need to sand or apply another coat of barrier.

OK, that does make it sound like there was an error in the application... In that case I would just get 2 "Home Depot" guys and have them sand the bottom... Down to the last remnants of the ablative antifouling... Put on a new coat of water barrier and follow up as I specified above...

Having said that, maybe it's time to consider some of the other technologies available:

1) Coppercoat which is the stuff (or a very similar substitute) recommended by Yannis above... Historically wooden ships were clad in copper underwater... Later on bottom paints used high amounts of copper in their formulation... However, due to environmental considerations, this practice was phased out... I'm not sure exactly how Coppercoat works (it certainly doesn't "leak" copper into the environment as that would be illegal) but I hear very good things about the results...

2) Ultra sonic devices like the Sonihull (there are other competing products)... I don't have any experience with the smaller yacht size products but I know for a fact that the technology works...

[mike ohlstein]

I'm not up on the laws (or lack thereof) in Florida, but up here in the Blue States, bottom paint needs to be removed and applied under the 'watchful eye' of someone with the proper license (usually an exterminators license).

So be careful with the Home Depot, shape-up guys idea.

[Amberjack]

I'm not up on the laws (or lack thereof) in Florida, but up here in the Blue States, bottom paint needs to be removed and applied under the 'watchful eye' of someone with the proper license

Up here in Washington State where we're so blue we've turned dark green all copper based bottom paint has been outlawed. I'll let you all know how this experiment works out. Sigh, I used to be able to paint Amberjack and not touch the bottom again for 7-8 years!

[Yannis]

Coppercoat is not a paint.

[Al C]

My marine is actually in a Federal Park and there has been no issues. People paint their own or hire out without any interference from the feds but that could change tomorrow.

Yannis
I have seen the pictures you post and I dream of boating in a place that beautiful someday.

[Yannis]

Thank you Al.

In response to your nice comments I attach some pics from this last Easter.
No whole lamb because of the weather this year , nevertheless, plenty of fun.
Boat pics later !!


My son with friends at our veranda



The "kontosouvli" which I put on the spit at 10am that same morning. Marinated lamb and pork. Lots of stories...Lots of fat on the wall too !!


The "pa i da kia", pronounced just like this. I can't describe the taste...

[Tony Meola]

The "pa i da kia", pronounced just like this. I can't describe the taste...

Yannis

Is that Lamb or some other meat?

[Yannis]

Lamb chops. In general Easter is all about lamb.

[Tony Meola]

Al

I bet they waited more than 24 hours.

[Tony Meola]

Lamb chops. In general Easter is all about lamb.

Now how did I know? I think Lamb is pretty much the meet of choice in Greece.

[Yannis]

In Easter.
The rest of the year all meats play.
For example the yeeros or souvlaki is almost always of pork.

[Raybo Marine NY]

Take a piece of duct tape 4-6" long, put it over an area with antifouling. Lightly scar the perimeter with a razor knife, peel the tape off. Let us know if you see bottom paint or primer on the back side of the tape.

Do you know which antifouling they used? I personally am not a fan of the tuffstuff,i used it twice ironically once on a B31 and just hated the way it rolls out, its very heavy i was worried about it being too heavy and not curing properly. Ill stick to the 2000E

[Carl]

My marine is actually in a Federal Park and there has been no issues. People paint their own or hire out without any interference from the feds but that could change tomorrow.

Al-
They used to come in and hand out fines, its a Federal Park, but private concession within.
Surprised they haven't been over there yet this year...cause they sure as hell are out in force on the other side of the harbor. We got a fine for painting the dock??! Officer says he saw a drop of paint go in water and wrote us up for improper procedure and...
When asked what the proper procedure was, he didn't know...but knew what we were doing was wrong and kept writing away.

...and out in Tottenville, holy smokes they went fine happy there.

[Al C]

Carl
Before Sandy we were warned by the yard guys to be careful and be sure to tarp the area when painting but I have never seen or heard of anyone being fined.
On the DEC site they mention paint that with contains TBT you needed to be a licensed pesticide applicator but I don't believe that paint is still available.


Raybo

Great tip, I guess if the paint flakes off on the tape then all should be removed and if we see primer we should remove that to?

[Carl]

Al- It was way before Sandy. I want to say sometime before/around when the ethanol problem came about.

[Tony Meola]

In NJ it is pretty much a yard choice for doing the bottom. Some let you do it some don't. My Marina wants the ground covered, but funny thing, when the yard paints the boats they don't cover the ground. Go figure.

[Raybo Marine NY]

al, if there is primer on the tape its a failure of the primer and it all needs to come off.

[Al C]

Raybo

Thank you, keeping my fingers crossed.
Al

[Raybo Marine NY]

Al I did have a boat we stripped the bottom down to gelcoat, few coats of 2000E and always used Micron.
Boat would come to me every other winter or so, I was the only one to every bottom paint it he would usually get at least 2 seasons out of the paint.
He decides he wants a different color than black so we go with shark white.

A season or so goes by and the yard he stores in when he doesnt come to me for winter work puts waterbased micron on it, that season it was all peeling right down to the black micron. Very odd. INterlux never gave me an answer on it we had it blasted down to the primer again ( boat is a 36' we werent going to even attempt to sand all that off )

wonder if they used waterbased paint on your boat?

[Tony Meola]

Robbie

Water based paint should not do that unless they put it on very thin and it is wearing off.

[Raybo Marine NY]

Interlux shrugged their shoulders and didnt even offer a gallon of paint , was kind of surprised considering how much awlgrip they jamn down my throat to get me to switch. The odd part was how it was all coming off down to the black.

[Tony Meola]

Interlux shrugged their shoulders and didnt even offer a gallon of paint , was kind of surprised considering how much awlgrip they jamn down my throat to get me to switch. The odd part was how it was all coming off down to the black.

Pretty typical of paint companies. Easy to blame it on the consumer. I had an issue with Benjamin Moore one time. They said it was me. Then they went down the list of what I did wrong. I said, nope, nope and nope. Then they said oh well we have no idea what happened.

I have not purchased a BM product since.

Interesting I came across someone who had the same issues I did. They did the same thing to him, but sent a rep out to look at his job. The Rep told him he had no idea why the paint did what it did and offered him a gallon for a job that took 10 gallons.