Another reason why I won't join "The Hull Truth"

[IRGuy]

Just saw this post.

A ferry and a recreational power vessel collide. It looks as they were on pretty much reciprocal courses. Can't tell if ferry was restricted in ability to maneuver or constrained by draft. Ferry blows 5 prolonged blasts (Danger or doubt as to what the other vessels intentions are), recreational boat does not appear to have anyone at helm, does not respond to ferry's signals. Ferry appears to go into reverse propulsion either just before or at time of collision.

I don't post this to state my opinion as to which vessel is at fault, rather I post it to reinforce my point, which is.. If a well intended newbie posts a legitimate question on THT, he can get a complete range of opinions, from off the wall stupid to correct, and he has no way to tell which answers are correct. In fact, he might well conclude from the force of someon's writing style that a wrong answer is correct. In this case as I write this there were 130 answers. How is the newbie to know?

http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-for ... fault.html

[mike ohlstein]

The newbie should be going to the rule book...... not a web site full of opinions.

[IRGuy]

Exactly! (Assuming he knew there was one)

[Navatech]

The newbie should be going to the rule book...... not a web site full of opinions.

As the various opinions on the web site show, reading comprehension isn't that common... All kidding aside, while the colregs are written pretty simply they're not that easy to understand... I suggest that the reasoning for this is that we all tend to comprehend new things on the basis of what we already know... In the case of the colregs the obvious (though incorrect) parallel is traffic laws... Part of this is due to the common terminology ("rules of the road")...

When ever somebody says "right of way" in the context of the colregs I do a quick check of the exact context... After which I tend to ignore the person because using "right of way" in the context of stand-on/stand-off vessels is a recipe for disaster...

[Carl]

THT, guy who posted the link hit the nail on the head.

Both at fault... and that is a huge reason why there are so many accidents; no I should not call them accidents; so many incidents on the water that "could be avoided".

Could be avoided IS the Statement...skip whose right and whose wrong, who has the right of way, who gave a blast, two blasts...5 emergency blasts with a cartwheel while holding pom poms and flares...thing is IF you can avoid a collision...you do.

But like so many New York City drivers...when we see a merge its smash the gas pedal to try and beat the other guy.

Its why I avoid holidays on the water...especially in popular places. I might be right to go, but is it worth a collision...



Guy skippering Nap Tyme from the bowl...definitely wrong. But he could have been having a heart attack or stroke and unable to alter course...no way of knowing.

Ferry saw boat on collision course...maybe he could not have turned...but I do believe he could have stopped to give way avoiding that collision.
Definitely could have tried to stop way before he did...but played the I'm bigger so I'm better card. (Which I do believe is a huge card that I always follow as a smaller boater)

[IRGuy]

Gentlemen...

Absent specific details about a specific situation, I always follow the "tonnage" rule...

The boat that weighs the most can take the right of way!


My Captain's Course instructor, a long time ocean going Captain and First Mate, made it clear from our first day of class... It is appropriate to depart from the formal rules in order to avoid a collision... in fact...

Rule 8 lays out the actions both vessels should take when they are approaching each other.

USCG Navigation Rules and Regulations Handbook, (international) Part B, Steering and Sailing Rules, Rule 8 (Action to Avoid Collision) Sec F, subparagraph iii states...

" A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obligated to comply with the rules of this part when the two vessels are approaching each other so as to involve risk of collision."

The Inland rules us slightly different wording but it is clear they are saying the same thing.


In this specific situation Rule 5 is also important ...

Section 1 - Conduct of Vessels In Any Condition Of Visibility

"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and risk of collision". The Inland rules are identical.

[Navatech]

IIRC, the only marine "incidents" involving more then one vessel where "blame" MIGHT be apportioned solely to one vessel is where the other vessel was at anchor or tied up (a.k.a. docked a.k.a.berthed a.k.a. slipped)... An example might be the recent case of a cruise ship's undertow wrecking a marina... Otherwise, the colreg that states that it's every captain's responsibility to avoid incidents means that everybody involved is partially to "blame"... After all, if you were involved in an incident you obviously haven't complied with the rule... The percentages of "blame" may not be the same but everybody shares part of the blame...

If I were the captain of the ferry in question I'd have hit the reverse a lot sooner... In fact, if I hadn't been able to communicate with the smaller boat to verify his intentions I would have slowed down much earlier and let him pass without incident... This assumes that what was shown in the video is no different from what transpired before the "record" button was pressed...

There is no "tonnage" or "gray" rule but having said that, and realizing that our small boats are a lot more easier to handle and maneuver then the big ocean going behemoths I think it's prudent and simple curtesy to give them right of way... Personally I'll get on the VHF and actually TELL them I'm giving them right of way... I don't want them to waste time trying to figure out my intentions...

Having said that, you won't get right of way from me just because you're a little bigger then me... That sort of thing might make putting out to sea from Port Everglades (Ft. Lauderdale) pretty much impossible during certain times...

In short, "live and let live" works here too!...

[Carl]

If I were the captain of the ferry in question I'd have hit the reverse a lot sooner... In fact, if I hadn't been able to communicate with the smaller boat to verify his intentions I would have slowed down much earlier and let him pass without incident... This assumes that what was shown in the video is no different from what transpired before the "record" button was pressed...

Yup

There is no "tonnage" or "gray" rule but having said that, and realizing that our small boats are a lot more easier to handle and maneuver then the big ocean going behemoths I think it's prudent and simple curtesy to give them right of way... Personally I'll get on the VHF and actually TELL them I'm giving them right of way... I don't want them to waste time trying to figure out my intentions...

The Gray Tonnage Rule is huge in my book, and it clearly states if they can go over you without even knowing, they have the right of way. Might be because I boat in NY Harbor and Raritan Bay where ships and Tugs are always around.

Having said that, you won't get right of way from me just because you're a little bigger then me... That sort of thing might make putting out to sea from Port Everglades (Ft. Lauderdale) pretty much impossible during certain times...

In short, "live and let live" works here too!...

Size matters, especially when playing chicken.

Then comes the aspect as to whether the other guy Is Playing Chicken, just doesn't see you, is being an A-ho$e, having a medical condition or like or Ferry and Nap Time cruiser...is in the crapper taking care of things.

So I'll agree if you know your seen and have right of way, you make that intention known and proceed.

...to a point.


I think when all is said and done...we are saying the same thing, preaching to the same choir, just changing the variables.

[mike ohlstein]

[IRGuy]

Just to make myself clear, my reference to the "Tonnage Rule" is purely in jest. I am not aware of any formal rule that says a vessel has the right of way in any situation simply because it is somehow larger than another, other than what I might call the rule of common sense. The Navigation Rules and Regulations clearly state conditions that determine which vessel has the right of way in a wide variety of situations relating to limitations of the vessels in regard to maneuverability, water depth, channel limits, obstructions, work being performed, etc, etc, etc.

To be fair to the ferry master in the above collision, IMHO the video does not provide enough information to determine if his vessel responded properly. Did the smaller vessel alter course just before the recording started? What were the wind conditions, was the ferry constrained by her draft, what were were there any other vessels nearby, how maneuverable was the ferry, etc.

I agree there is a likelihood that both vessels were at fault, because it does not appear that the ferry took early enough action to avoid a collision, and it appears that the recreation vessel did not have a look-out, and also took no action to avoid a collision.

This is what Admiralty courts are for.

[Carl]

Just to make myself clear, my reference to the "Tonnage Rule" is purely in jest. I am not aware of any formal rule that says a vessel has the right of way in any situation simply because it is somehow larger than another, other than what I might call the rule of common sense.

This is what Admiralty courts are for.

No jest here...Tonnage rule is the rule of self preservation. Being right but dead... or worse being right and having a boat load of your family and friends hurt or worse-er-er.

[Chum Bucket]

Allegedly, the small boat skipper was on auto pilot, in the head, and had his hearing aids off...don't think ROW applies to him in this circumstance? The ferry lane is marked on all the nav maps in this region for a reason AND the ferry has very limited turning capabilities. It's like car wrecks. he/she with the most lug nuts almost always win regardless of who has ROW. Thankfully, other than pride and 15 mins of fame, no one died.

As for THT, I can hardly keep up with the boards I'm already signed up on! There's always a troll on every site. B31 and B33 sites both do a great job vetting out the nitwits. THT has more members which makes it that much more difficult IMHO.

[TailhookTom]

"Green to green and red to red, all is well proceed ahead; when in danger and when in doubt, run in circles and scream and shout."

I'm with you Carl, size matters.....I've been out chunking tuna many nights when I see lights in a distance and run up and get a signal from the vessel under the lights on the radar. I note distance and speed and course and determine if I need to move. One night I was taking my designated sleep break and I had 3 crew up on watch and chunking.....sometime later they started yelling to me that they needed me. I cam up out of the V berth and climbed up between the engines and saw a curved butt 80 bent in two and one of my buddies in the bucket in the fighting chair, with another with welding gloves on and the third harpoon in hand. I said "sword, tuna, what?" They said "eyeball, but we got this, you need to deal with up front."

I climb up on the bridge and see what looks like a city of lights in front of us, two pings from the radar confirms that something that appears to be the size of Fishers Island is bearing directly at us, at 18knts. I put the boat in gear, pivot it on and course 90 degrees to the starboard and motor away at about 10kts. My crew is screaming that I'm going to lose the fish. Once we are safely away, I come down, the line is still tight and I look at them, kind of pissed off and say "Why didn't you wake me up sooner." The reply was "We had lines in the water and were hooked up, he should have seen us and adjusted his course." I asked exactly where in Chapman's it says "lines in the water and being hooked up grants the right away over a commercial freighter?"

I then dug out my binoculars and looked toward the freighter.....there was no one visible on the bridge, and they were towing a ton of lobster gear behind them.

I'll move EVERY time.

Tom

[Amberjack]

USCG completed its review of the yacht Nap Tyme and Washington State ferry Chetzamoka (sp?) collision and decided both skippers were at fault--the yacht for failing to keep a proper lookout and the ferry for failing to take timely evasive action. The article at least did not really address right of way. It's hard to believe Coast Guard didn't so I assume the paper just omitted that part of the inquiry. You can read the article in the Kitsap Sun a local weekly.

http://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/loc ... /98497218/

[Navatech]

It's hard to believe Coast Guard didn't so I assume the paper just omitted that part of the inquiry.

IIRC you'll be able to find the USCG report somewhere on the USCG web site pretty soon (it isn't there yet)... It IS public information!... Having said that, I think the NTSB was also involved in this investigation...

[SteveM]

The boat is actually called Nap Tyme???? wow

[Navatech]

The boat is actually called Nap Tyme???? wow

Might have been changed to Crap Tyme though...