OK--first off, I know very little about diesels, but am planning on eventually converting my B31 over from gas. I've read the comments about mechanical v. the new electronic that have been made over the years, and as a big believer in keeping things simple, I've always liked the idea of staying with mechanicals.
I spent yesterday fishing with a friend on his new boat with the Cummins QSC with electronic controls. The trolling valves are electronic, and even with 1200 hp on tap, we could troll down at 2.5-3 knots or so. No smoke at all, no diesel smell at all. It kind of came to me how easy it all was when I saw a 32 Combi troll by leaving the typical diesel haze and dragging a chute to get the speed down.
I'm not saying that I'd get electronic diesels, its just that yesterday was the first time I've fished with them, and the boat worked great. Thought it was worth mentioning.
John F.
Diesel stuff from a Gasser guy
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
So, how many fish did that fancy new rig catch??
I've heard Bruce mention that the electronic has more to do with emissions than smell. But I'd wonder a guess that eletronic controls do a better job of keeping the motor efficient while running at different rpms & thus controls smoke that way. Kind of the same way gas engines use to need a tune up every year and now with fuel injection that's not the case.
If you can afford them the computer controled would be the way to go.
br,
JohnD
I've heard Bruce mention that the electronic has more to do with emissions than smell. But I'd wonder a guess that eletronic controls do a better job of keeping the motor efficient while running at different rpms & thus controls smoke that way. Kind of the same way gas engines use to need a tune up every year and now with fuel injection that's not the case.
If you can afford them the computer controled would be the way to go.
br,
JohnD
John
We got 5 in about 5 hours of fishing. 3 were below the slot (29, 33, 34) that we kept, and 2 were in the slot that went back (28 & 39). All had spawned out or were males (don't know how to tell the male/female thing except females are bigger, but do know what a fish that hasn't spawned out looks like). We had neighbors on the boat that don't fish much, and kids, like mine, that do, and they all had a great time.
How is your repower coming?
John F.
We got 5 in about 5 hours of fishing. 3 were below the slot (29, 33, 34) that we kept, and 2 were in the slot that went back (28 & 39). All had spawned out or were males (don't know how to tell the male/female thing except females are bigger, but do know what a fish that hasn't spawned out looks like). We had neighbors on the boat that don't fish much, and kids, like mine, that do, and they all had a great time.
How is your repower coming?
John F.
That sounds like a good time. I know that new boat is one sweet ride.
My repower has yet to begin (the real work that is). The motors are done & trolling valves are being installed this week. I can't say enough good about T&S in Chrisfield, if you're ever in need of diesel work these guys are great to deal with. The old motors are sold and will come out in the next couple of weeks. I hope to get the boat over to the yard this week so I can start the real work.
The thing that stinks is everybody's talking fishing and I haven't even started going over my tackle yet and probably won't until the fall.
br,
John
My repower has yet to begin (the real work that is). The motors are done & trolling valves are being installed this week. I can't say enough good about T&S in Chrisfield, if you're ever in need of diesel work these guys are great to deal with. The old motors are sold and will come out in the next couple of weeks. I hope to get the boat over to the yard this week so I can start the real work.
The thing that stinks is everybody's talking fishing and I haven't even started going over my tackle yet and probably won't until the fall.
br,
John
John,
A control is a control is a control.
Its job is to open and close the throttle and shift the gear box. Mechanical or electrical that's it.
Yes the new engines are better at fuel burn, hence the emission rating. They acheive this by running hotter cylinder temps, use higher pressure multi stage injectors and control injector firing thru a computer for optimized burn.
Burning fuel cleaner will emmit less emissions and ineffect you won't have the stronger smell of diesel that a simple injector pump will give you so the smell can be less.
But the cumbustion of diesel is still there, athough more efficient and there have been some who think the smell is gone away.
The electronic controls are the cats ass.
They are the present and the future.
With NEMMA 2000, the possibilities of cross talk between stuff is like what were used to seeing on aircraft.
Its slicker than a boat broker.
"Zero Cavity" with the Ray Marine E120 display coupled to the Teleflex Majic buss system with its own 4" displays will give multiple display opportunities. But still the can buss plugs Ray uses and the can buss plugs Teleflex uses are different even though its one standard. So hard wiring the two systems together is required.
Being somewhat a computer geek, I love the challanges of making everything work together.
John, you need to take into consideration the exhaust outlet design, cockpit design, wind direction for the lack of smell.
Even with old Detroits, some types of boats had a heavy smell to them while others had very little. Boat design is still critical.
A control is a control is a control.
Its job is to open and close the throttle and shift the gear box. Mechanical or electrical that's it.
Yes the new engines are better at fuel burn, hence the emission rating. They acheive this by running hotter cylinder temps, use higher pressure multi stage injectors and control injector firing thru a computer for optimized burn.
Burning fuel cleaner will emmit less emissions and ineffect you won't have the stronger smell of diesel that a simple injector pump will give you so the smell can be less.
But the cumbustion of diesel is still there, athough more efficient and there have been some who think the smell is gone away.
The electronic controls are the cats ass.
They are the present and the future.
With NEMMA 2000, the possibilities of cross talk between stuff is like what were used to seeing on aircraft.
Its slicker than a boat broker.
"Zero Cavity" with the Ray Marine E120 display coupled to the Teleflex Majic buss system with its own 4" displays will give multiple display opportunities. But still the can buss plugs Ray uses and the can buss plugs Teleflex uses are different even though its one standard. So hard wiring the two systems together is required.
Being somewhat a computer geek, I love the challanges of making everything work together.
John, you need to take into consideration the exhaust outlet design, cockpit design, wind direction for the lack of smell.
Even with old Detroits, some types of boats had a heavy smell to them while others had very little. Boat design is still critical.
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Tony Meola
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John
I know its a tough decision, I am trying to weigh it all out right now. Bruce makes some good points, but remember, he also said that with the new engines you would also need the extended engine box so the cost keeps going up. Smell/cost/ Smell/Cost. I guess it will be a flip the coin and go for it but the cost differance will buy a hell of a lot of diesal fuel. Tony Meola
I know its a tough decision, I am trying to weigh it all out right now. Bruce makes some good points, but remember, he also said that with the new engines you would also need the extended engine box so the cost keeps going up. Smell/cost/ Smell/Cost. I guess it will be a flip the coin and go for it but the cost differance will buy a hell of a lot of diesal fuel. Tony Meola
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scot
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John,
I think the decision often comes down to a man's pocket book. No doubt electronics are the furure and a set of QSC's would enhance the value of your ride.
Bruce,
The NEMA 2000 stuff should also provide benefits for mechanical engines, like all of the gauge sensors tied into a common cable. From what I have read you can have one cable from the engine room to the helm and up to the tower, thus providing a full gauge cluster at the tower with one cable. Is this the case?
I think the decision often comes down to a man's pocket book. No doubt electronics are the furure and a set of QSC's would enhance the value of your ride.
Bruce,
The NEMA 2000 stuff should also provide benefits for mechanical engines, like all of the gauge sensors tied into a common cable. From what I have read you can have one cable from the engine room to the helm and up to the tower, thus providing a full gauge cluster at the tower with one cable. Is this the case?
Scot
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
1969 Bertram 25 "Roly Poly"
she'll float one of these days.. no really it will :-0
Fellas-
As long as my 454s keep going, they're it. If they broke tomorrow, I'd probably go for the 315 Yannies for ease of installation, etc. My comments were just because I thought it all worked well yesterday. The boat got on plane with no black smoke, after pressing a button and only having to work one control, and they synced automatically. Then, for trolling valves, you hit another button. I don't know how it all works, I just thought it was pretty cool.
John F.
As long as my 454s keep going, they're it. If they broke tomorrow, I'd probably go for the 315 Yannies for ease of installation, etc. My comments were just because I thought it all worked well yesterday. The boat got on plane with no black smoke, after pressing a button and only having to work one control, and they synced automatically. Then, for trolling valves, you hit another button. I don't know how it all works, I just thought it was pretty cool.
John F.
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In Memory of Vicroy
- Senior Member
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John, good questions, good answers from the Faithful. I have the Cummins 6BTA 250s, same as the 210s but with an aftercooler. Bruce has been on AJ a number of times, and simple is what they are. Sure, they smoke blue when cold at idle, leave a little black haze at cruise, but they run, run, and run. I happen to like diesel smell, used to tell my Momma that when I was a kid and we were behind a bus.
It takes about 240-250 diesel hp a side to make a B31 get up and run with a flat wake at 24 kts or so cruise. As you increase the hp, they run up to about 28 then its all a waste in my view since the hull just won't run right above that unless loaded with ballast. Ballast is not a bad idea on the B31 since its a lot lighter boat, even with diesels than most think....say 13K on AJ with big genset and a lot of junk.
My 6BTAs are the CPL 1247 models (CPL stands for Complete Parts List) and is the sub-model # of the 250 6BTA. I am lucky to have them, over 2500 hours and no problems other than the Sherwood raw water pumps that Tony Athens has solved with his aftermarket parts.
I have heard the QSB electronics run, and they are gas-motor quiet and don't smoke. If my 250s crapped out tomorrow I'd probably get them rebuilt since I know them inside and out vs. trying to work on a computer engine. As for electronic engine controls, fly by wire, not for me. I want a positive connection to my throttle lever on the engine and the gear. Sure the cable can break, but without a cable backup, no way. Aircraft with fly by wire have backup hyd. systems to this day.
My musings for the night, gonna be a short work week for me, the guy I had to call in Phoenix today was out for the week.....
UV
It takes about 240-250 diesel hp a side to make a B31 get up and run with a flat wake at 24 kts or so cruise. As you increase the hp, they run up to about 28 then its all a waste in my view since the hull just won't run right above that unless loaded with ballast. Ballast is not a bad idea on the B31 since its a lot lighter boat, even with diesels than most think....say 13K on AJ with big genset and a lot of junk.
My 6BTAs are the CPL 1247 models (CPL stands for Complete Parts List) and is the sub-model # of the 250 6BTA. I am lucky to have them, over 2500 hours and no problems other than the Sherwood raw water pumps that Tony Athens has solved with his aftermarket parts.
I have heard the QSB electronics run, and they are gas-motor quiet and don't smoke. If my 250s crapped out tomorrow I'd probably get them rebuilt since I know them inside and out vs. trying to work on a computer engine. As for electronic engine controls, fly by wire, not for me. I want a positive connection to my throttle lever on the engine and the gear. Sure the cable can break, but without a cable backup, no way. Aircraft with fly by wire have backup hyd. systems to this day.
My musings for the night, gonna be a short work week for me, the guy I had to call in Phoenix today was out for the week.....
UV
Scot,
Yes. The 2000 is a 4 wire system. Two power and com wires.
Everything gets hooked together and the com channels assign an address to each item attached.
When comparing smell and sound make sure you are looking at common fruit.
Many new boats have increased their insulation which makes the engines seem quieter.
Out in the open, I felt the QSB was not signifcantly quieter than the 6BTA.
Yes. The 2000 is a 4 wire system. Two power and com wires.
Everything gets hooked together and the com channels assign an address to each item attached.
When comparing smell and sound make sure you are looking at common fruit.
Many new boats have increased their insulation which makes the engines seem quieter.
Out in the open, I felt the QSB was not signifcantly quieter than the 6BTA.
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Capt. Mike Holmes
- Senior Member
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- Location: Freeport, Texas
- Contact:
Diesel smoke?
I have 12 valve, mechanical 6BTA's in the boat. They smoke blue-white when cold, warmed up and running I get a little steam out the exhaust, the only time I've ever had black smoke was when a hose came loose off the turbo.
I had a 24 valve Cummins in a pickup, computer controlled. It was loud as the 12 valves, not much smoke.
I have a common rail, computer controlled Cummins in my current truck. It is much quieter than the older engines, smooth as silk, blows black smoke just about every time I really punch the pedal. Dealer blames it on crappy fuel.
I had a 24 valve Cummins in a pickup, computer controlled. It was loud as the 12 valves, not much smoke.
I have a common rail, computer controlled Cummins in my current truck. It is much quieter than the older engines, smooth as silk, blows black smoke just about every time I really punch the pedal. Dealer blames it on crappy fuel.
"There is nothing quite so satisfying, as simply messing around in boats."
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