Another case of Darwin's Law prevailing

[IRGuy]

Sad, irresponsible, unnecessary, stupid.. you can fill in the rest...

http://www.tbo.com/news/florida/officia ... 99437f3a99

[Carl]

While some people get what they deserve others will wind up paying for his irresponsibility.

Went upstate to Skinners Falls last week where I spent many a summer as a kid. I'd skindive all day traversing the river many many times collecting river loot and trash...this time, new rules...No swimming across the river, no use of tubes without lifejacket. It was being sorta strictly being enforced by parks department.

People who cannot swim, not smart enough to know their limits did not wear lifejackets when they should and drowned..so now a person cannot sit in a tube without a lifejacket, can't swim across river...even with a buddy. Officer told my wife who was sitting in tube, 5 feet from shore, below the rapids in 3' of water she could not be in tube without a lifejacket. So she hopped off and all was good. We played nice when they came around, put jackets on to go down rapids as its just smart.
I still dove as usual traversing river over and over, stayed far away when they came around. When I was on shore I know they knew who I was...but think they saw the trash I was pulling out and may have decided to leave well enough turning a blind eye. I just made sure not to rub in faces by coming in or leaving when they were there. They did call in lots of swimmers for going out too far...

It's a shame someones stupidity ruins it for others...

[Navatech]

It's a shame someones stupidity ruins it for others...

Children SHOULD be protected from their own stupidity and from the potential stupidity of their parents... So I'm perfectly OK with laws such as specifying wearing a PDF while on a boat and under a certain age... Adults don't need a nanny... Big government thinks otherwise...

[Carl]

Children SHOULD be protected from their own stupidity and from the potential stupidity of their parents... So I'm perfectly OK with laws such as specifying wearing a PDF while on a boat and under a certain age... Adults don't need a nanny... Big government thinks otherwise...

I agree...to a degree.

My kids grew up knowing when we got out of the car at marina they put on their PDF's and they did not come off till we returned to the car. When they matured to the point we knew they were responsible enough to respect the water and dangers around it, knew how to swim and not panic...we became a bit more lenient. We adjusted by maturity, not age.

But as to age requirements for a .pdf.
Up till 12 they must wear and at 13 they do not....what changes in that one day that prepares them not to have a .pdf on?
Now my kids wore the .pdf as a rule...but at the beach with boat, under supervision they came off so we could swim and learn to respect water and not rely on a crutch to get them around, then back on they went.

Now I did a big no no that I am sure would have gotten us in trouble on several levels...I swam with my youngest daughter across...no life jackets. Reason...she swims very well, but that lesson of swimming 90 to the flow, like in a rip tide and not panic is invaluable, best taught in controlled situations, without the aid of a crutch. She took lead heading to a mark we picked out just across the river, of course we missed it by a mile...but she just swam 90 till we were out of heavy flow, then headed up to the spot we picked, never missed a beat.

These laws that are supposed to protect us from ourselves creates herds of dumb sheep taking queues from shepherds...no longer thinking and absorbing life experiences. Stopping for school buses instead of teaching kids not to run out in traffic...we make all traffic stop so they can run out to mom across the street....what lesson is being taught?


Wait...soon there will be laws requiring helmets on wave runners to protect us from ourselves...
Instead I say, make the families pay for the buoy repair and the emergency response required.

[Navatech]

We adjusted by maturity, not age.

And that's quite acceptable presuming you're responsible adult with a healthy dose of common sense... However, as the various Darwin's Laws incidents show, common sense is a lot less common among those that you would reasonably classify as a responsible adult...

Up till 12 they must wear and at 13 they do not....what changes in that one day that prepares them not to have a .pdf on?

Absolutely nothing... Some kids can reasonably do without a PDF at the age of 10... Others at the age of 11... Some won't be that far even when they turn 21... Having said that, maybe it's my naval training but whenever I'm on the boat and the boat is moving under power I wear my (inflatable) PDF with my PLB attached... I find that leading by personal example makes it a lot easier to ask others to do the same...

I swam with my youngest daughter across...no life jackets. Reason...she swims very well, but that lesson of swimming 90 to the flow, like in a rip tide and not panic is invaluable, best taught in controlled situations, without the aid of a crutch. She took lead heading to a mark we picked out just across the river, of course we missed it by a mile...but she just swam 90 till we were out of heavy flow, then headed up to the spot we picked, never missed a beat.

Again, you're a responsible adult with a healthy dose of common sense... The nanny state concept is rooted in the view that none of us are... Of course, considering who votes for parties that endorse the nanny state concept they might have a point regarding their voters...

what lesson is being taught?

It's NOT about teaching lessons... It's about control...

I say, make the families pay for the buoy repair and the emergency response required.

I know some friends who did their outmost to raise a responsible adult... Without success... So, unless it can be proven that the families are responsible for the person acting irresponsibly, I say that their estates get to pay for that...

[Carl]

Having said that, maybe it's my naval training but whenever I'm on the boat and the boat is moving under power I wear my (inflatable) PDF with my PLB attached... I find that leading by personal example makes it a lot easier to ask others to do the same...

Your a smarter man then me. However, this year I will wear one at the very least when trawling alone...provide I do get her splashed. Been ready to go...just no time. But that's another thread I'll have to hijack to tell..
Which do you recommend, I was looking once before and the list kept growing instead of shrinking as I did my homework.

what lesson is being taught?

It's NOT about teaching lessons... It's about control...

Maybe your right...personally I say teach the kids responsibility for their actions so they know better. You get hit by a car walking or running in front of one...you'll die or worse get hurt, and wind up HURTING real bad for a REAL long time.

I also feel Control is like Safety...no such thing. Its just a perceived state of mind.

\

I say, make the families pay for the buoy repair and the emergency response required.

I know some friends who did their outmost to raise a responsible adult... Without success... So, unless it can be proven that the families are responsible for the person acting irresponsibly, I say that their estates get to pay for that...

I figure if families can sue on behalf of deceased, they can be penalized for having them. (sorta kidding)
But, I'm fine with estates paying...

Kind of a dumb thread as we are preaching to the choir...
I just get annoyed when people do dumb things, some get outraged then stupid laws hit the books that the idiots don't/won't follow anyway. May or may not be the case here...I do know idiot waverunner people made it crazy coming or leaving our harbor...jumping wakes only feet off the stern, some hit boats, other got hit by boats then that was it...NO waverunners in harbor period nor within a mile or so of the inlet. Ruined it for alot of people.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

I had to wear a life jacket until I was able to swim across the lagoon and back, watched by my father for safety, but unaided. I did this by age 4. My sister managed to do it at age 6. This was in the 1950's. Parents need to make sure their children are safe. It's not the job of government to be the nanny.

Make sure your kids are safe, well mannered, educated, and learn to fish (that's fish, not just throw a lure) at an early age. Priceless.

[Navatech]

Which do you recommend, I was looking once before and the list kept growing instead of shrinking as I did my homework.

Back in the service we had a PDF that was stored in a pouch on a belt... The whole thing was pretty much a fanny pack... Regulation was that you'd have to don and partially inflate the damned thing whenever you were out on the deck... They were not designed for comfort!... Since you're going to wear it for hours on end I would say that comfort should be your # 1 criteria... As for other options:

1. If you find 2 different ones that you find comfortable - select the one that offers higher buoyancy...
2. Manual or automatic: they'll both do the job if you're conscious when you hit the water... However, if you, for example, hit your head on the way overboard only one will do the job... I would therefore highly recommend the automatic option...
3. Lanyard (lifeline): blow boaters rig a lifeline the length of the boat as sometimes they have to get out of the cockpit and do something manually up front... Unless you're going to rig a lifeline this is not an option you should bother with...

My $0.02 is that if you're running the boat solo and you have to leave the bridge you really should put the engines in neutral... And make sure there's some way to climb back into the boat... And, even if you have an EPIRB, get a PLB and connect it to your PDF when you're out by yourself...

Personally I say teach the kids responsibility for their actions so they know better.

I don't disagree... But then again, just by being Bertram aficionados we are, by definition, responsible people with a healthy shot of common sense...

I also feel Control is like Safety...no such thing. Its just a perceived state of mind.

Again, I don't disagree... That doesn't mean we shouldn't be prudent... Back to that common sense thing...

I figure if families can sue on behalf of deceased, they can be penalized for having them.

I'm sure some other member who's a practitioner of the legal art will chime in if I'm wrong but AFAIK it's the estate which sues... Of course, the estate is usually the family but legally there's a difference...

NO waverunners in harbor period nor within a mile or so of the inlet. Ruined it for alot of people.

Ha!... That's nothing... Some 20-25 years or so ago we had an accident where a famous goalkeeper for one of the major soccer clubs back home was hit in the head by a PWC... He didn't make it... Now PWC's are subject to bunch of ludicrous requirements (e.g. oars mandatory on board)... AND, if you want to operate one you have to go and get a license...

[IRGuy]

Unfortunately (or maybe it is fortunate considering how stupid some people are) our rules have come to a point where they are made to protect the lowest common denominator. This is the liberal mindset.. you can't protect yourself so we will protect you, or at least force you to protect yourself. Lawsuits often result in awards to the stupid.. consider several years ago the woman who purchased a cup of coffee at a McDonalds drive through window, and was holding it between her legs.. some splashed out and she got hot coffee on her whatever.. she sued McDonalds and won a settlement, so now all the places that sell coffee have to keep it below a certain temperature.

Consider the automatic braking feature on some new cars.. it won't be long until every new car has this feature. The benefit of this technology will result in people believing that they no longer will have to pay attention or worry about braking the car.. it will do it itself unassisted.. we will then have drivers who will not pay attention to where they are going or what is happening around them.

Don't think this hasn't already happened.. consider the idiots who have walked into traffic while playing Pokemon Go!

[Navatech]

I had to wear a life jacket until I was able to swim across the lagoon and back, watched by my father for safety, but unaided. I did this by age 4. My sister managed to do it at age 6. This was in the 1950's. Parents need to make sure their children are safe. It's not the job of government to be the nanny.

Make sure your kids are safe, well mannered, educated, and learn to fish (that's fish, not just throw a lure) at an early age. Priceless.

Like I said, I don't disagree in principle... Except for the children thing... If we agree that there always will idiots then we have to try and protect their kids...

[Navatech]

Lawsuits often result in awards to the stupid.. consider several years ago the woman who purchased a cup of coffee at a McDonalds drive through window, and was holding it between her legs.. some splashed out and she got hot coffee on her whatever.. she sued McDonalds and won a settlement

AFAIK, she won the initial legal process... Juries like to "stick it" to big business... IIRC, it got reversed on appeal...

Consider the automatic braking feature on some new cars.. it won't be long until every new car has this feature. The benefit of this technology will result in people believing that they no longer will have to pay attention or worry about braking the car.. it will do it itself unassisted.. we will then have drivers who will not pay attention to where they are going or what is happening around them.

Then?!... It's already happening... There was that Tesla being driven on AP that was involved in a crash... In fact, having mentioned AP, there's been more then one mishap on the water with vessels on AP...

[mike ohlstein]

Carl, if you're going to get something for offshore use, get one with an integral harness. That way you can use it to 'last yourself to the mast' if need be.




http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?pat ... id=2489061

[Carl]

I had to wear a life jacket until I was able to swim across the lagoon and back, watched by my father for safety, but unaided. I did this by age 4. My sister managed to do it at age 6. This was in the 1950's. Parents need to make sure their children are safe.

Makes sense to me.
You teach a child to be safe by teaching them how to do things the right way...not keeping them away from every possible danger, cause someone will not always be their to protect them.


I have heard that today we keep everything dirty and contaminated away from our children and that does not allow their immune system to develop correctly. Customer recently became a grandfather and apparently he really really believes this...while I think it has merit...his kids are pissed...when grandpa goes over he feeds them grandkids bits of dirt from this and that and...and I forgot what else he said as I had to do my best to keep from laughing...mostly as its not my kids he's feeding dirt to....wow quite the tangent there.

[Carl]

[quote="mike ohlstein"]Carl, if you're going to get something for offshore use, get one with an integral harness. That way you can use it to 'last yourself to the mast' if need be.


Prices really dropped a good amount since I last looked...although Mustangs are still commanding a nice chunk.
Thanks, I'll check it out.

Guess then I'd have to get a mast to lash myself too.



Offshore I usually take someone, mostly as I'm cheap with thirsty gas motors and return with a big empty tank...

[Carl]

... It's already happening... There was that Tesla being driven on AP that was involved in a crash...

I recently heard about that...apparently that Tesla owner was known to show off the new technology by driving for minutes at a time without hands on the wheel or paying attentions. U-Tube videos he took of himself prove that. Whatever...

Crash was when a tractor trailer turned left across the path of car...Tesla was 5-10mph over speed limit, car never hit the brakes, went under trailer, driver decapitated. Tesla claims AP may not have picked up white trailer against skyline, or picked up trailer as an overhead sign or overpass which it is supposed to ignore. Tesla spin...whatever.


What is known...AP failed...AND driver Apparently was not paying attention OR just assumed car would stop...eventually as he never applied any brake.

My take...Driver negligence for relying on AP.

[Carl]

My $0.02 is that if you're running the boat solo and you have to leave the bridge you really should put the engines in neutral... And make sure there's some way to climb back into the boat... And, even if you have an EPIRB, get a PLB and connect it to your PDF when you're out by yourself...

Express, it's 1 step down to cockpit.
I troll several poles and stopping to check/clear or remove nuisance bluefish I don't stop boat for that. Also kinda hard to put lines out without boat in gear...so it's leave wheel, leave on AP or find someone to fish with...

I tend to fish when others don't seem to want to fish, others not to thrilled about trolling so its alone or stay at the dock at times...
I cast away.

[Joseph Fikentscher]

You teach a child to be safe by teaching them how to do things the right way...not keeping them away from every possible danger, cause someone will not always be their to protect them.

X2

I know we can't teach them everything, but parents should try to impart any knowledge they have about situations they find themselves, and their children, in.

[Carl]

I know we can't teach them everything, but parents should try to impart any knowledge they have about situations they find themselves, and their children, in.

Nobody can know everything, including my 17 year old daughter who thinks she does. But the hope is as we take the time to teach our children how we can deal with a particular situation, they can take that lesson and use towards a new encounter. Build upon what is learned, learn how to learn...
A big part of maturity is just knowing enough to Stop and Think.