product for tank relining

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Mar 31st, '07, 22:08

I was wondering if anyone on here has tried

Protecto-Coat 900, flake filled novolac epoxy

from www.dudick.com

I'm considering it the guy i've been talking to about it seems very knowledgable and thinks its my best choice.

lobsta1 · Post by **lobsta1** » Apr 1st, '07, 18:59

Scooter,
by the time you cut open the tank, grind out all the baffle rivets, then grind the tank surface down to clean uncontaminated glass, do your coating & then figure out how to resecure the baffles, then glass the top back on; it's cheaper & easier to just have a new tank made & install it.

Do a search on Raybo marine or my name lobsta1. Raybo did do a reline. says it cannot be done in the boat & is no cheaper than a new tank. I posted pics of what I found when I cut my tank apart. The inside gel coated surface was still solid. However gas/water had penetrated through the rivets & started rusting & causing delamination.
Al

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 2nd, '07, 16:17

lobsta1 thanks for the reply. Done correctly i believe relining the tank will far outlast an aluminum one and with me doing all the work i think i will be far below the price of a new fiberglass one from high tide($3800). Plus i've already removed the tank in preparation for relining. I'm also going to be installing fiberglass baffles instead of riveting the aluminum ones back in. I also have a gelcoated tank and will have to remove all of it to get to fiberglass no matter what shape its in.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Apr 2nd, '07, 16:26

you will need thier primer before the coating, you will also need thier resin to glass the whole deal back together.

not sure what your plan for glassing the top of the baffles in was, maybe you were just going to glass as much as you could while the lid was off?

You will also need to do the baffles before the coating, which will greatly complicate coating the tank.

I would just re-use the stock baffle system, it will probably come out looking brand new when you take it out of the tank.

dont forget a real good pressure test of the tank as well, lots of seams from rivets to go over.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 2nd, '07, 20:33

thanks a lot i have been in contact with them trying to figure out what the best primer to use would be. i will keep your suggestion of the baffles in mind you make a good point. i also am considering cutting access holes in the top to one aid in glassing the top back on and getting to the baffles. THey also will come in handy when checking on the tank every year to make sure the coating is holding up. Any more ideas would be great. Thanks a lot.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Apr 3rd, '07, 16:20

you need to cut the tank where Bertram put it together, its a shoe box design.

You will have to drill out all the rivets to get the baffles out, there are hundreds of them holding the baffles in place.

There is more involved, too much to really list or describe until you are already into the project.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 10:34

well guys just wanted to give an update on the progress i've made on the tank. So far i've removed the top, baffles, and rivets. I also decided to sandblast instead of grind. It turned out awesome only an hour and half to blast the entire tank. Now all i'm waiting on is my order from uscomposites.com. I went with there vinyl ester resin and for all those curious on pricing. The total for all the materials to redo the tank is under 500 dollars. That includes the vinyl ester angle that i'm using to attach the baffles to prevent using rivets. Anyways for those that wondering whether or not to redo they're tank its very doable. And way cheaper than a new tank.

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Apr 19th, '07, 10:46

Until you factor in the time spent.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 11:59

then in that case everyone needs to give up restoring they're bertrams haha and i guess my time isn't as valuable as some on here haha

seriously though i don't think the time spent is still anywhere close to a new fiberglass tank and i'm not sure but may even be cheaper than aluminum.

here's a breakdown so far
removal of tank -2hrs.
removal of top - 2.5hrs.
removal of baffles -1hr.
removal of gelcoat(sandblasted) -2hrs

I'll let you know how long it takes to put it all back together. At a $60 labor rate thats around $450 and that includes removing the tank which would be a seperate deal if you were buying a tank. I can say though without the right tools and the willingness to get your hands dirty/itchy. You'd be better off getting a new tank.

dougl33 · Post by **dougl33** » Apr 19th, '07, 12:11

I'm surprised at the amount of time its taken you to get this far. I would've thought it would've been a lot more.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Apr 19th, '07, 12:18

Thanks for the breakdown, I was just getting ready to ask for one, but I do have a couple of more questions.

Where did you cut the tank to open it up, around the top edge or where it was joined by the factory?

Do you think this could be done in the boat if decent acess could be provided to the top and top portion of the sides?

With the rising cost of AL tanks, this process may be the way to go.

If you don't mind, what's the ball park for materials?

Thanks,
John

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Apr 19th, '07, 15:22

how did you remove the baffles?
saws-all?

or did you grind down the glass around the rivets so that you could drill them out and remove them?

Im guessing a saws-all?

grinding the glass down to remove the rivets is what takes time, and of course putting all the rivets back in.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 15:36

doug- honestly i was surprised to and if you factored in the time i've spent researching and thinking about what to do a new tank would be way cheaper. haha

i've got plenty of pictures that i've taken along the way to so it may help some if i can find time to get them posted.

also i'm working on a 165 gallon tank out of a 28 so john i'm not 100% sure but i think you have a 33 or something. I can't tell you for sure but i don't think you can do the work with the tank installed. On the 28 i know you can't, at least you wouldn't want much easier to do the work with it removed.

As raybo pointed out the tank is a shoe-box design, i chose to cut right at the top of the bottom section. Also since the baffles are riveted in to the top, you either have to drill them out by grinding away at the top. Or the way i chose wasy to cut access holes in each section, then cut the baffle at the top. I did this because i need the access holes to glass the top back on and to keep an eye on the tank.

as far as breakdown i can get a more accurate number later but a ball park for now would be:

5 gallons vinyl ester: 150.00
16lb. kit of 4lb density foam: 50.00
15ft. of vinyl ester 1.5x1.5 angle: 80.00
1'x3' roll of gasket rubber for the access holes: 30.00
roll of 6" fiberglass cloth tape: 30.00

thats pretty close of course there's a few other expenses one eing that i sandblasted the tank instead of grinding it which i highly reccomend but you may have to pay someone to do it. Hope this helps.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 15:44

raybo i chose to sawzall the top of the baffle. then with the top removed i ground the rivets flush and then drilled them to remove the baffle. With a thin grinding wheel on a 4.5inch grinder it made short work of the job. I deal with aircraft a lot and i'm very familiar to removing rivets haha. And since rivets are the problem source for these tanks i chose to redo the tank without using them. Even coating with vinyl ester if i have a rivet go through it the ethanol will just leach between the rivet into the old glass. So i decided to glass vinyl ester angle 3/16" thick in place of the flange on the baffles. Then cut the flanges off and rivet the baffle to the angle instead of the tank. That way the rivet is goin through solid vinyl ester.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Apr 19th, '07, 15:44

Thanks, I've got a B35 with 250+gal tank. I believe the cost of replacement is upward of $2k for AL & I don't know of anybody doing new FG. So what you're doing may be an option should I need to do it, though it sounds like a real pain.

On the B35 the whole cockpit comes out and there's easy access to the tank but you wouldn't be able to rotate and that may make working on it harder.

Good Luck with your project.

BTW, how's the repower going?

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 15:53

the repower is going great both engines are installed. Thanks for asking. after i get the tank done i'm hoping to hop back on hooking them up. I think i'll be replacing the rudder shelves this weekend while i wait for the resin to show up for tank.

and by the way i'm probably an hour and a half south of you. if you ever want to stop by and see the tank or anything in person be my guest. I'll try to get some pics posted to give you a better idea. Also i've seen others post this info before just want to tell you don't be scared of removing the tank. Once you cut the fiberglass the foam will still hold the tank in. I just used a jack with some boards to spread the load, and pryed the thing up. It sounded scary but it was a piece of cake.

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Apr 19th, '07, 16:35

I would love to stop down and see how things are going, but my schedule is just a little crazy right now.

When you get a chance shoot me an e-mail with your contact info and I'll return mine:

johndunker@yahoo.com

About 4yrs ago I had to remove an aux tank added by the previous owner as it was leaking and had saturated the fwd bulkhead of my tank. I had a local guy repair the bulkhead and it's a work of art 3/4 ply and half-doz layers of glass. So removing my tank may be a little more of a chore. Not that I'm shy to do it, as long as it's ok I'm going with it.

I should be pulling my boat in the next week or two to begin my diesel conversion. That's when the fun will begin.

Every once in a while some of us get together I'll make sure you get an invite, I think we're over do for a meeting...

br,
JohnD

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 17:24

sounds good i'll send you an email.

i'm not sure but i know a lot of guys have said they're not worried about the ethanol problem because diesel doesn't have it. One of the benefits of repowering with diesel's. so you might not have to do it anyways.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Apr 19th, '07, 17:57

whats the plan for the top of it? Just going to leave the tops of the baffles not attached?

The tank I took apart had contamination of the laminates, without proper priming and coating you cannot glass to a compromised substrate.
Thats the main issue at hand, it isnt what can you glass in there for todays fuels, its dealing with the contaminated substrate to get a ideal bond and proper chemical cure.

In this picture you can see where the glass had been compromised, this is weeks after the tank sat and was already cleaned of any fuel.

We cut the tank open and within a half hour this was leaching out of the laminates.

I would just be VERY weary of the process and would advise those reading to take all variables into mind when thinking of this project.

scooter28 · Post by **scooter28** » Apr 19th, '07, 19:20

i'm going to glass the top on using the holes i cut in the top to access the seam on the inside. I'm also attaching the top of the baffles to the fiberglass angles that i'll attach to the top also.

First off i'd like to say that i've had this tank empty for about 2yrs now. Also the tank has never seen ethanol fuel. One of the reasons i chose to sandblast the tank was to quickly get to good fiberglass. I understand you need a good clean surface to glass to. I'm also using vinyl ester resin and not the epoxy coating. So i won't need to worry about any primer, i will though be applying at least one layer of cloth.

Lastly i will have 3 different access holes in the top so that i may periodically check to make sure everything thing is ok.

you couldn't have said it any better in your last sentance. anyone wishing to do this don't just jump in without thinking through everything. everyone is going to have different variables in they're tanks.

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Apr 19th, '07, 20:11

your tank is a PERFECT candidate for relining.

Tanks that have seen ethanol and or failed already should
not consider this as a fix.

captgator · Post by **captgator** » Sep 6th, '07, 21:51

I am fairly new to the board and hello to everyone,I follow some of raybos projects on oother boards and just started reading up on these fuel tank issues,will read more before I get too deep into it,there are a lot of products used in the fule tanks of aircraft,jet and general aviation that might be a good fix,the same product is used in jet and piston aircraft and migfht be a good fix for this will check the specs and see if it will hold up to ethanol,it is made by prc and the part #s are pr1422a2,pr1422b2,it is pretty cheap and in my opinion would be more cost prohibitive to coat tanks with this,or if anything have aluminum tanks built and coat insides with this to prevent corrosion etc,the use of blind fasteners in the baffles might be an option also,they are fluid tight,they are made by cherry textron and part#s are cr1322-6-6 the last two #s being diameter and length,I may have opened my mouth a little early but will do some more research and post again,thanks for reading and great sight!, :-D

In Memory Walter K · Post by **In Memory Walter K** » Sep 7th, '07, 09:51

Welcome aboard! From all we have experienced in the Northeast, if your tanks are fiberglass and have been exposed to Ethanol, you WILL have a problem. All efforts to coat, re-epoxy, etc have either failed or been cost and time prohibitive compared to tank replacement in aluminum or Stainless. Airplanes with gas engines have lobbied and gotten Avgas that contains no Ethanol, has lead and is of higher Octane. Randall has been using it on his B-25 and other than its cost and inconvenience in getting it, has been happy with it's performance. If the product you've found to coat a tank might inhibit aluminum errosion from Ethanol's by-product (collected water), it might be a consideration best applied at the time of constructing a new tank. Walter

Harv · Post by **Harv** » Oct 30th, '07, 18:47

Walter,

the only liner type product I have seen for lining an aluminum or any other metal tank is called RedKote
http://www.usaimports.co.uk/FBO_Pages/red_kote.htm

Raybo Marine NY · Post by **Raybo Marine NY** » Nov 27th, '07, 19:49

I just noticed this thread was still alive- Im 99.99999% certain that aviation fuels do not contain ethanol. I would not trust a aviation product for this purpose.

On another note- we have been relining cat style speed boats due to the fact that the tanks are built into the design of the hull.
Bladders are one option for this- but they are VERY EXPENSIVE and so far will only comit to 15% ethanol.

You also have to cut the tanks open and smooth them to prep for a bladder install.

On one cat style boat the side of the boat had failed in the form of blisters and bubbling.

Its a good thing Bertram tanks have so many options.

On another note- with doing these cat boats it has also made me wonder if getting rid of the stock Bertram baffles and making them out of glass would be a better option if one was to reline thier tank.

bertram31.com

product for tank relining

product for tank relining

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