Bilge pumps winterizing ?

[Yannis]

I went down to clean with my pressure Karcher so I said it wouldn't be bad to pressure rinse the bilge pumps and the shower grey water pump. While rinsing the latter, I observed that the pump was working alright, but was not sending water out the tubing ! I played with the floating sensor and suddenly it picked up water and sent it out, three minutes later the same story again... What is this?
How do you winterize these pumps; do they need anything after all?
Thanks.

[Navatech]

I went down to clean with my pressure Karcher so I said it wouldn't be bad to pressure rinse the bilge pumps and the shower grey water pump. While rinsing the latter, I observed that the pump was working alright, but was not sending water out the tubing ! I played with the floating sensor and suddenly it picked up water and sent it out, three minutes later the same story again... What is this?
How do you winterize these pumps; do they need anything after all?
Thanks.

First, unless it freezes in your area winterizing is not something you should worry about... Having said that, winterizing of boat's water systems is basically the process of removing the water contained in these systems... The reason being that due to the anomaly of water, when it freezes it expands... Which can (and does) crack the container... Where it gets really cold (e.g. NJ, NY and more to the north here in the US) people will also run antifreeze through the system to be sure that if there's even a small amount of water it will be protected from freezing (and expanding)...

Second, I'm going to assume that your shower sump pump is centrifugal... And that you don't have a check valve on the discharge side (you shouldn't)... Basically, with a centrifugal pump, once the pump stops running the water that's in the discharge hose will flow back... Into the shower sump in your case... Therefore it will take some time (10-30 seconds, depending on the length of your discharge hose - this is one case where shorter is better) before you see water coming out of the through hull...

Having said that, if you have a clear discharge hose and you don't see it filling immediately I'd remove the pump from its base and have a look at the underside... There might be stuff there (e.g. soap scum or hair that passed by the hair filter which your shower sump should have) that prevents your pump from operating properly... To help you further pictures would be a big help...

[Tony Meola]

If the bilge pump is set up correctly, it should self drain back. If it doesn't there might be a check valve in the line. Shower sump would need antifreeze. But if you keep the boat in area that does not freeze not a problem, like Nav said.

[Yannis]

Thank you Nav, Tony.

Well, first, there is no freezing here, so no need for emptying the water in the system or antifreeze of any kind.

Second, yes, there is a valve on the discharge side to prevent the water to flow back and come in the shower sump. And, yes, it is centrifugal - it's the pump that comes together with the sump when you buy them - although the sump itself is not the original plastic rectangular container anymore; it's now built on the boat floor under the head sole. And no, there is no filter - there is no room for filter...

Third, I suspected both the muck under the pump as well as a possible blocking of the valve, but as I said, the pump works ( at a higher pitch ) without sending water out and suddenly (after I start and stop it a few times by playing with the floating sensor) it changes pitch and works properly.

I guess I will have to bring it out and see what's underneath like you're suggesting.

[Navatech]

yes, there is a valve on the discharge side to prevent the water to flow back and come in the shower sump. And, yes, it is centrifugal - it's the pump that comes together with the sump when you buy them - although the sump itself is not the original plastic rectangular container anymore; it's now built on the boat floor under the head sole. And no, there is no filter - there is no room for filter...

A shower sump without a filter is a bad idea... The filter is usually something along the lines of a perforated pipe at the end of the shower drain... Having a sump without a filter and WITH a check valve is an especially bad idea... People shed hair.. Hair will clog both the pump and the check valve!!! Soap scum will turn the hair into a really gross and very clogging substance...

At the VERY least get a filter and put it in the shower drain!!!

Even if you yourself resemble Kojak (Telly Savalas) I doubt you're the kind that shaves all over and, I assume, you have the occasional visitor on the boat...

[Yannis]

Even if you yourself resemble Kojak (Telly Savalas) I doubt you're the kind that shaves all over and, I assume, you have the occasional visitor on the boat...

I love it !!

When I was doing the connections last year, I knew that I would run into potential problems, but I took the risk (by not putting a filter and by adding the valve).
I will have to see how to add a filter now, although space is at a premium; why are you saying, though, that the check valve is a bad idea? How can you prevent the water in the tubing to flow back? Consider that the built-in sump is small and that by having the tubing water content flow back, it increases the level in the sump by so much that the pump kicks in again and again, endlessly.








The pump sits on the horizontal part of the sump and discharges aft (NW in the pic). The discharge pipe goes through a hole (not seen here) that is 2/3 up from the bottom (dictated by the height of the pump discharge), thus, further reducing the holding capacity of the sump. The check valve is right outside of the sump, to the NW of it in the pic, and before the engine bulkhead right after it. Putting it in and removing it from that tight space, requires Houdini's skills and Rubinstein's fingers...

[Navatech]

I will have to see how to add a filter now, although space is at a premium

I'm assuming that the hole that can be seen in your 4th picture is where the shower drain connects to the shower sump... You could build a small frame and span something like bug screen netting over that (to act as a filter and catch the hair)... Put in a U shaped channel at the front and the back and slide the frame into the channel... The water coming from the drain will have to pass through the screen before it gets pumped... This filter won't take up ANY of the available space for water and cleaning it will be a breeze..

why are you saying, though, that the check valve is a bad idea?

Check valves are notorious for getting clogged... Hair and soap scum are BOTH clogging agents... In addition, check valves reduce the centrifugal pump's capacity by up to 50%...

so much that the pump kicks in again and again, endlessly.

That merely means that your float is set too low... Raise the level of the float... Start with a thin (3mm) piece of plastic sheet... If that's not enough, add a 2nd... You might have to add a 3rd one... Only testing will tell... A little water in the sump won't harm anything... Having said that, if you're leaving the boat for a longer period you might want to use a sponge to dry it up... It might get smelly if it stands for a week or more...

The check valve is right outside of the sump, to the NW of it in the pic, and before the engine bulkhead right after it. Putting it in and removing it from that tight space, requires Houdini's skills and Rubinstein's fingers...

Another reason to get rid of it...

P.S. Do you also have check valves on your bilge pumps?!...

[Yannis]

Nav, thanks for the alternatives. Both for the filter, as well as for the float height.

Hole in the 4th pic? Is it not in the first one? Also, call me stupid but while I understand the bug screen need, I failto grasp the U tube addition concept...

Perhaps I forgot to mention that there is practically no tube connecting the shower drain to the sump. Just because the shower drain hole sits right on top of the sump, the water just falls through by gravity directly into the sump. For cosmetic purposes I fixed that common round ss drain cover onto the shower floor pane, but there is no tubing underneath.

No, in the bilges I have no check valves.

[Navatech]

Maybe this will help:

[Navatech]

Ah... OK... Now I get it... Just get a sink strainer... Something like this:



Drop that into the hole (might use some silicone to glue it in place)...

[Yannis]

Yes, that,s more like it ! A sink strainer.

Thanks, because what you've drawn there is fine, but it's way too much to the right..., look at the drain hole of the shower floor in the first pic; it's right in the middle of the sump ...

By the way, how do you manage to draw on a picture, especially somebody else's one...

I'll take the whole thing out and let you know what I found...

[Yannis]

We say " Π " shaped, instead of " U " shaped ! I would have got it if you used the capital " π " letter, but how could you know...

[Navatech]

Thanks, because what you've drawn there is fine, but it's way too much to the right..., look at the drain hole of the shower floor in the first pic; it's right in the middle of the sump ...

That's what I didn't get the first time around... Having said that, a screen as I originally suggested way on the left (keel) side of the sump would also work but the sink strainer is just easier and just as effective...

By the way, how do you manage to draw on a picture, especially somebody else's one...

I could have used Adobe Photoshop or Adobe Flash... But I used Adobe Illustrator... Imported the original picture... Drew the lines on top of it... Exported everything (original picture and lines) as a jpg...

[Navatech]

We say " Π " shaped, instead of " U " shaped ! I would have got it if you used the capital " π " letter, but how could you know...

I don't even know how to pronounce those symbols... It's all Greek to me (pun intended)... In fact, I didn't even know there was a capital pi...

[Yannis]

I could have used Adobe Photoshop or Adobe Flash... But I used Adobe Illustrator... Imported the original picture... Drew the lines on top of it... Exported everything (original picture and lines) as a jpg...

THIS is all Greek to me ! I'll have my son explain what all this means, otherwise, I will still continue living this boring life of mine without this extra knowledge LOL !!!

In fact, I didn't even know there was a capital pi...

C'mon Nav, for every small letter there exists its capital counterpart. For π, it's Π, for ω, it's Ω, etc. Greek 101 !

So, this Π shape, is used to describe the like shapes e.g.: a Π shaped wedding table, or a Π shaped electrical channel etc...

[Navatech]

THIS is all Greek to me ! I'll have my son explain what all this means, otherwise, I will still continue living this boring life of mine without this extra knowledge LOL !!!

Adobe Photoshop is a computer program designed to create/manipulate static pixel based images such as photographs... Adobe Illustrator is a computer program designed to create/manipulate static vector based images such as line drawings... Adobe Flash is a computer program designed to create/manipulate multimedia...

Imported the original picture... Drew the lines on top of it... Exported everything (original picture and lines) as a jpg...

Basically I created new document, placed your picture in that document and then drew lines on top of your image... Then I saved the result in a graphic file format suitable for representation on the web...

Now you don't have to get your son to explain anything to you... And, when the occasion arrises, you can show you're a cool dad who understands some basic computer stuff ;-)

C'mon Nav, for every small letter there exists its capital counterpart. For π, it's Π, for ω, it's Ω, etc. Greek 101 !

You forget, many languages (e.g. Semitic and Asian) languages don't have capital letters... And since I've never taken Greek of any kind...

So, this Π shape, is used to describe the like shapes e.g.: a Π shaped wedding table, or a Π shaped electrical channel etc...

Oh, I do get that part... Basically your Π is an inverted U and used in much the same way... For example, where we (US, Netherlands etc) sometimes have to make a U turn in Greece you guys sometimes have to make a Π turn...

[Yannis]

Nav,

Thanks for the thorough explanation. Your computer skills are clearly better than mine. As a matter of fact, you can claim that they are superior to that of the ...average B31 member! I even envisage sessions whereby you could explain to the typical "ignorant", like me, the truth behind pixels and bytes...

As for the capitals, I hadn't thought that there could be languages not having capital letters (because my little world comprises mainly of european languages - I speak 4), nevertheless, we do say a "U" turn and not a "Π" turn, despite the fact that letter U does not exist in our alphabet, possibly due to the fact that this turn resembles a U more than anything else. We say though "a river Δ (delta)" because it resembles one, or, in construction terms, we say "H (eeta) iron beams" because they have that profile, or, Π shaped buildings, or, Γ(gamma) denotes a 90 degree corner or angle, and more.

On your next flyover, stop-by to discuss computer and linguistic issues over ouzo and octopus...! For the first 15 minutes that is, then we skip to other more important things, like which bikini is better and stuff!!

[Navatech]

which bikini is better and stuff!!

I'd rather discuss the picture then the frame... I hope that falls under the heading of "stuff"...

[Yannis]

HA !
I don't need to be careful.
Others do.
Anyway, beauty is in the eye of the beholder !