some 28 Bertram questions

[Major]

I hate for my first post on here to not be 31 related but i have some questions i think some of you can help me out with.

1. My dad and I have a 28 Bertram that we were going to refit and repower but after a few problems hes lost intrest. Our inital plan was to put in a couple diesels and make some other general upgrades. Well we raised the deck to fit a set of diesels the boatyard sold him and once mounted the motors barely touched the hatches so it was a no go. Then we debated on just selling those two and dropping in 2 yanmars but then the transmission wouldnt work. So in an effort to keep this alive i recently brought up outboards again even though im not wild about how the look. They would prove to be a easier fix to the problem and i can do the glasswork to reinforce the back. BTW if anyone has any pictures of how they have done that id appreciate it. What are all of your opinions on this? Money is an issue at this point but id prefer to have 2 diesels or the 4 strokes over a gas inboard.

2. This relates back to #1 but the other option was to go boat shopping for something that would be less of a boat in my opinion and it would have outboards for sure. Think a shorter grady white or something similar.

3. I would like to replace the windshield with something that wont be as prone to leaking and was curious if the rounded window on the 31's had a odd effect when looking through them? Otherwise we could just use 2 straight 1 piece panes on the front similar to what is already there but without the bottom flip up windows. We have the lower helm and im not sure that my dad wonts to get rid of that so blocking it off isnt an option even if we did get rid of it probably. In bad weather i would probably want to be up where i can actually see.

As of right now we have no running boat and we have never had the 28 in the water. It was bought as a project boat. So thats the current status.

Thanks for any help,

Major

[Kevin]

Outboards in my opinion would be a poor bandaid for the hatch problem. Then you would have expensive to purchase, maintain, and run outboards. You are talking serious fiberglass work for outboards. Then you still have a boat that runs on gas. Is the tank fiberglass or has it been replaced. Remember the ethanol issue with glass tanks. I had to raise my hatches to make any engine fit other than the origianl 233's. I am no expert but think making the diesels you have fit under the hatches would be a small project compared to the other route. I just raised mine and would be more than happy to show you the method(not the best way) that I used. I believe far less water will enter the engine room also. As for the windows, I have no experience with front window modification. I can tell you the 31 window will not fit. If you guys own the Bertram and like it, stick with it. I had mine for two years before I realy ever used it. Maybe 20 hours or so but the whole time I was fixing valves......and I am not good at that, obviously. Now that mine has good engines I love it and am reworking the interior.....still fishable though. I am sure the others will chime in. this board is like gold when it comes Bertram iformation. Good luck!

[Major]

The hatch isnt really the problem if we changed motors as the yanmars we were looking at would fit fine since the deck is raised. The only issue is we would be buying engines, maybe shafts, rudders are already larger than factory and transmissions unless we went with a 5 bladed prop if I remember right. I think there would be an issue with removing the prop as well if we did that. I was thinking we would have to remove the rudder to get the prop off if we did that.

Id be interested to see what you did to raise your deck as i might could make some improvements to what we had done.

The fuel tank would be changed reguardless.

On the upside to the inboards we should already have all the controls from when they were bought for those last engines. I also think someone makes a kit to modify the stringers on the 28 to make the yanmar we were looking at a drop in. I have also already glassed in the rear exhaust ports and moved them to the side for some tips we had made to help move the fumes a little better and look good too.

For the outboards we would be looking at a armstrong bracket, fiberglass reinforcing and filling the holes for the shafts and rudders. The boat also is said to ride higher, dryer and a little faster. But faster = more fuel.

Major

[Brewster Minton]

No outboards! You will not be happy. The weight wont be in the right place they cost a great deal and burn gas. Just my two cents. Kevins right.

[In Memory Walter K]

I have to assume you have looked at the price of today's higher hp outboards. At those prices, plus a new tank (which you won't need if you go diesel) and the resale difference of a boat with a set of diesels vs a pair of outboards with less than a third of the lifespan of diesels, it's a no-brainer in my humble opinion. The diesels make it a lifetime boat. Marine gasoline in the northeast will be $4.00+ a gallon this season. Unless operational costs are not an issue (and there must be plenty in that category based on the sale of 3 engine outboard powered boats recently), even $3.00 diesel plus it's lowered consumption, would lower operating costs by at least 30%. My two cents, for whatever they're worth. No matter what you do, good luck! Walter

[scot]

Major,

What make, model & hp diesels were you originally trying to fit in the boat? Also, if you have the ability to do the glass work for a transom reinforcement then you can do the glass work required to get a pair of diesels in the boat.

Skip the outboards...go with the diesels.

My $.02

[Carl]

I would think it over a bit more before hanging outboards on the transom.

What would be the advantage over a pair of 318 or 350 gas inboards. Not price or installation ease, not fuel consumption, the look and feel of the boat would not be comprimised so you would be able to sell the boat relatively easily, compared to Outboards IMHO anyway. Plus do you really want 2 huge chunks of aluminum hanging off your transom, you reduce access and fishability.

Now going diesel is a whole new story, you will increase range, speed and resale value while still having a very desirable boat, easier to sell.

I think the choices would be inboard gas or diesel for me.

[Rick]

I've seen a b28 with outboards. I agree with everyone else, I wouldn't do it. When I was looking into repower options, one idea a Merc dealer suggested was a single deisel install using a jack shaft to a bravo three out drive. Lots of mods for that install, new fuel tanks, transom reenforcement, engine stringers, ect... The dealer was in Norfolk. I think he might have done one b28 like that.

[Major]

Yall make some good points on the repower and as you've stated we probably will be better off with inboards. The yanmars we were looking at were a set of 240hp ones but i dont recall the model number. Longevity was something else i havent really considered until you compared the price of the diesel inboard with the outboards. That alone with them being close in cost makes up my mind in the matter not to mention better range.

For diesels is the air intake large enough on the 28 if i used the 240hp model? From reading about the side air intake/ dorade box on here im thinking they will somewhat starve the motors. I wish i could do that side intake but im not sure there is enough room.

Who makes a good replacement fuel tank and is there a preferance to a certain material? Fiberglass would seem to be the better choice to me all things considered.

On a side note has anyone else taken on a fiberglass frame for the windows? I noticed a couple write ups on here where some people did a very good job with it but their fiberglass skills look to be a little beyond mine. The one main thing i think im missing on those is how the windows are secured. Also would it be strong enough for a windshield?

Thanks for all your help so far,

Major

[Hyena Love]

If you want Yanmar 240's, buy them now. Used, there are very few available, and they are no longer available new (basically existing dealer stock only). John Cranston has some 170 horse models for sale. Check the classifieds.

Air supply is not an issue. These engine compartments are not sealed, air can be sucked in from the tranny cutout in the bulkhead, as well as numerous other gaps. If it does become a limiting factor, its relatively easy to correct.

Generally, no tank replacement required for diesel. Thats a $3k to $5k discount relative to a gas repower.

But, But, But, decent gas engines will push a B28 at reasonable cruise speeds for most typical sea conditions. Gas engines are cheap, easy to replace, and trannies are available everywhere.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

I saw Johnny Ritchie's old 32 Luhrs out for a bottom job this week. He repowered with the Styer 6's. Looks like he kept the same 1 1/4" shafts, maybe even the same props as with the 318's he had before. Tiny little props. He is very happy with the results, much better speed, much better economy, and he doesn't have to rebuild an engine after every trip.

[Rawleigh]

What kind of performance #'s is he getting Mike?

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

I'm not really sure if he gave me figures other than a comparision of his numbers with gas. I think he cruises at least 22 knots now, tops out over 25 - it's a light boat -where he was topping out about 16 with the old gas engines. He says they run almost silent. This is a charter boat, so he is delirious about the increased speed and range - plus the economy.

[Kingfish]

Major,

Bill Fuller might chime in, he has 240's in his 28' and no problem with air intake. He has speed, range and economy. He would have to give you his #'s.

I on the other hand have 170's in my 28'. I have range and economy. My cruising speed is 16-18 kts with 22-23 kts tops fully loaded.

If your going to keep the boat for any length of time I'd go diesel if I were you. My 2 cents.

[Bill Fuller]

As Jim mentioned I have the Yanmar 4LHA-STEs in my B28. They are just intering their 8th year of service with essentially no issue. They are getting on toward 2,000 hours.

As Ernest stated, air intake is a non-issue.

So far as transmisssions and shafts. changing to Yanmars from what I assume was a gas boat will require new transmissions, new shafts and new props. These ghanges will be required for most diesel repowers, with the exception of shafts and props if you you a higher RPM diesel such as the Styer. Then you can get away with the old shafts and and maybe the old props. None of the more modern diesels are counter rotating. Rotation is changed in the transmissions. The Borg Warner Velvet drives that B28 were originally equipped with do not have this capability.

You can look at my repower at www.sbmar.com

With a moderately loaded boat and good sea conditions, a 25 knot cruise is not unrealistic.

Bill

[jbg108]

A different twist. I have an 84' 28 with 300hp mpi Mercs. At 3500 RPMs I cruise almost 26 knots and burn 23-24 GPH. She tops out at 34 knots. The engines fit fine and run awsome. No smoke, little vibration and quiet at trolling speeds.

The repower cost at least $25,000 less than 240 Yanmars. At that I can burn an extra ten gallons an hour. I figure at $3.50 per gallon for gas the diesels will require 800+ hours at cruise to break even or 1100+ hours of regular use. For me that is eight years.

[Harv]

A different twist. I have an 84' 28 with 300hp mpi Mercs. At 3500 RPMs I cruise almost 26 knots and burn 23-24 GPH. She tops out at 34 knots. The engines fit fine and run awsome. No smoke, little vibration and quiet at trolling speeds.

The repower cost at least $25,000 less than 240 Yanmars. At that I can burn an extra ten gallons an hour. I figure at $3.50 per gallon for gas the diesels will require 800+ hours at cruise to break even or 1100+ hours of regular use. For me that is eight years.

If you factor in the price of diesel presently $.50 per gallon less, it will cost you $50 more for every 100 gals of gas compared to diesel. In reality, it will take much less than 8 years to hit a break even point.

[In Memory Walter K]

You're looking at $4.50-$5.00 per gallon for marine gasoline this summer. My diesel delivery truck price this week was $2.40. To me, it's a no brainer if you're going to use your boat a lot. It's going to be a crowded inshore season...and a lot of dead NY Fluke "shorts". Thank your beaurocratic brains for all they've done for us. Walter

[Bill]

I have been running outboards on my boat for the past couple of years and have no problems until this week when after having the boat hauled and the bottom scraped, etc, I have found that my main tank needs to be junked as it has be dissolved by the ethanol.

One positive thing with the outboards is that I now have a level deck without the dreaded mid deck step as I do not have to contend with any engine covers. I have the bait tank in the deck and three (3) outboards on the stern.

Cruising speed is around 28 knots and WOT is approaching 38 knots. Get the hell pounded out of you trying that outside of the Golden Gate but can run a routine 3500RPM at 24 knots in our normal seas.

[Kingfish]

Bill,

It would interesting to see some pics of your.

Can you post some pics or e-mail them?

[STeveZ]

A different twist. I figure at $3.50 per gallon for gas the diesels will require 800+ hours at cruise to break even or 1100+ hours of regular use. For me that is eight years.

My reasoning for buying a diesel 28 was this:

1. Fuel economy during ownership

2. Better resale. I expect (hope) to get much of my diesel "investment" back when I sell. Additionally the field of competitors will be much smaller, especially now that the effects of ethanol are known and quantified. I would expect (hope) that a 28 Bert burning only 9-10 gph would sell quickly up in DE/NJ as an economical offshore boat.

In fact, it seems like a shame that we just use it as a picnic boat for the family.