Gulf Red Snapper rule

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

I know all us B31 owners are elitist marlin fishermen, but some of the group ocassonally likes to snatch a few red snapper for the table. I just received word that the "Interim Red Snapper" rule from NOAA thorugh the Gulf Council goes into effect May 2, through Sept. 29, 2008. This will cut both the commercial and recreational TAC's, drop the recreational daily limit to two fish per day, and eliminate the limit the captain and crew on charterboats were allowed to keep for themselves.

Oh, and the minimum size limit for commercial fishermen drops from 14 inches to 13 inches, while the recreational minimum size in federal waters will remain at 16.

There is an "Ad Hoc Recreational Snapper Advisory Panel" being formed to look at "alternative" ways to reduce the recreational catch of red snapper. It was proposed by an environmentalist and a commercial fisherman, working together (Foxes in the henhouse?). So far, all the applicants being considered are commercial fishermen. I have just put my name in the hat for this panel - I've been on the Mackerel AP for several years - but it looks like we're likely screwed, with more to come.

[In Memory of Vicroy]

Fish at night.

UV

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Or fish out of Port Eads, or Port Mansfield.

[JohnCranston]

Glad that I sold my charter permits a couple of weeks ago.

[scot]

Capt Mike,

I'm not so distrubed by this. I like to cook a few snapper as much as the next guy but let's face it....snapper ain't much for sport. It's shorta like winching up a heavy boot off the bottom, that wiggles a little. Personally I like weed lines. Fewer people fish them and I'll take Ling (Cobia for you Yankees) triple tail and Dolphin any day of the week. I prefer the solitude of the open water.

I've never had to compete for fishing space on a weed line....so maybe there will be fewer idiots at the docks, rigs and rocks. I know you have seen your share of insults and threats passing from boat to boat when it comes to bottom structure. I stopped fighting the mob for Snapper years ago.

So look at this as a good thing Capt Mike, I know it won't stop you from enjoying yourself offshore...but it will stop some of them, and a couple of Sows will still make a nice meal.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Scot,
The problem is, this is just a start. Grouper season will be closed in the winter, when most grouper fishing occurs, there will soon be lighter limits on vermillion snapper, you only get 2 ling per day, same with AJ's, maybe only two yellowfin per boat, only 1 shark of any species. Look for limits on dolphin and wahoo soon.

I won't be taking any snapper charters this year, anybody want to go tarpon fishing? Elliot Cundieff in Freeport has the largest party boat operaton in the state, and all his boats are up for sale. A lot of other charter boats will be going out of business, whuich means people losing their livelihood. There is more at stake here than a few less knotheads bmping each other around a rig - we've rarely had a problem finding spots to fish that had no other boats on them, but lots of snapper. Try a big sow on light tackle, or hooked near the surface where heavy weights and decompression are not a factor, and you might be surprised at the "sport"

The snapper situation is based on faulty "science", and NOAA knows this. They have no idea of the actual health of the snapper fishery, so they follow their nose and tighten restrictions. Offshore fishing, and particularly for hire fishing, is under a serious attack. If we let them hack away at us one species at a time, one day it will all be gone, and we'll wonder where it went.

[Brewster Minton]

They dont want anyone fishing. The regs are going to get worse. I will no longer commercial fish tuna because its almost impossible to be compliant. When you talk to someone at NMFS it is clear that they are not on the fishermans side and look at us as crimminals at worst and trouble at best.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

They have already hit the commercial guys on snapper. They switched from derby fishing to an IFQ system, supposedly based on historical catches. I have heard stories of guys who caught over 20,000 lbs annually (just a ball park figure) who were given an ANNUAL quota this year of less than the 2,000 pounds a day they were allowed before.

I guess the foreign snapper producers will get a big bump in business.

[Hyena Love]

Come On Mike:

What, you are drinking the "faulty" science cool aid too?

The combined impact of the fishery legislation requires the regulators to proceed based upon the best available science. Science can still suck, but nevertheless be the best available. If there is no other sceince available, then any science becomes the best available.

The big mistake, in my estimation, is to think that the unknown supports one's own position. We simply don't know - separate and apart from this alleged "faulty" science - the true size of the red snapper population. Could be bigger than thought by some, could be less than thought by some.

BTW, how many charters have you run in the last three years? Of those, how many were nearshore trips targeting snapper? Of those snapper trips, how many involved limiting out for your clients?

The reason I ask is, as a focused snapper fisherman, I would suggest there is a problem. Tons of 15.5 inch fish, and very few keepers. With a 15 inch limit for the commercials, this population bulge at 15.5 inches tells me that recreational fishing pressure is the problem.

[scot]

Sorry Capt....didn't know the charter business was part of your livelihood. I'm no tree hugger but all who have fished the Gulf for years know that the stocks and sizes are down. I don't have the answers but something needs to be done. I don't think the state guys are fair....or for that matter have a clue about what they are doing.

I think the all or nothing mentality is not the answer. Doplfins are currently "all"....wouldn't it be better if they were 10-15 fish? Everyone I know has loaded the boat to the gunnels at one time or another. But I guess the state will do nothing until they come out with a 2 fish limit on them. I have always felt like any species is headed for trouble when there are no limits at all.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Ernest, I've sat in meeting where Gulf Council "scientists" admitted "forgetting" to include the effects of multiple major hurricanes on fishing effort in a given year, oe to "discovering" a new batch of data not previously reported that supports their position, from dubious sources. I heard them admit to including jet skii rentals in their recreational-for-hire telephone surveys. I heard the representative of the Gulf Council's statistical committee report that his committee rdoubts the catch numbers they were given and refuses to issue a report until another meeting including all involved in the process is conducted to find a way to obtain accurate data. More than one US government entity has said NOAA's numbers are not believable, and a judge uin Houston just ruled they have been negligent in managing the snapper situation due to their refusal to do anything to actually reduce snapper bycatch by shrimpers.

I haven't run many charters in the last three years, and have not snapper fished in state waters in longer than that. Unless you fish where Capt. Randle does (Port Mansfield), there aren't that many productive spots in state waters. I agree that recreational pressure hurts snapper, as does illegal commercial fishing - personally I think these are bigger factors than shrimping. I also feel that a 2 fsh limit will have people still fishing, but culling all day to get to good fish to take home. Cahrtr boats and head boats won't really be able to do this, but the private boat angler can. This will likely result in 20 snapper killed (as porpoise food) for every two brought in legally. This will help the fishery how?

I had a long discussion a few weeks ago with the directro of coastal fisheries for TP&WD, and he and his department agree with what many fishermen believe, that NOAA and the Gulf Council are out of control here - mostly NOAA. The Gulf Council refused to approve the emergency rule for 2 fish until more and better data could be presented., NOAA went around them and pushed it through anyway.

The two hurricanes a couple of years ago wiped out commercial, charter, and private boats that target snapper, destroyed docks and entire marinas, and made some good areas inaccessible . This was a more effective reduction in snapper fishing than our governemnt coudl ever accomplish, and was not figured into their "best available science". Its the best available because they refuse to consider other methodoogy.

Just my two cents.

Since triggerfish are also regulated, I guess we can fish for bonito (I LIKE Bonito) and spadefish this year.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Sorry for all the misspellings in my last post - eyesight not so good anymore, and the letters on the screen are SO small.

Scot, the state is not the problem. Snapper in state waters will still be 4 fish per day, probably with a 13" minmum size, because the state does not believe snapper are that troubled. Most of the data NOAA gets comes from the eastern Gulf, where snapper were completely wiped out at one time, and are just now beginning to re-appear in fishable numbers. Dolphin are found in state waters less than red snapper, so the state has little interest in regulating them. Chicken dolphin (Pompano dolphin) are thought to only have a lifespan of a couple of years, so catching a bunch occasionally doesn't endanger the population that much.

Because the oceans are hard to see under, how can we tell if there are fewer snapper, or if they've moved a few hundred yards to a rock we don''t know about, or a big valve on a pipeline, where there is less fishing pressure? A few years ago, Ric Jacobson "found' a spot by accident which he called "Red Mountain". You couldn't tell what sort of structure was there because the fish were too thick to see through. In maybe 3 months, total, there were an estimated 1,2000 snapper over 10 pounds taken here - they were feeding on the surface. When the commercial guys got the numbers, they fished it day and night until there was nothing left but triggerfish, and yes, a lot of charter boats have commercial reef fish permits. We think it was probably the remains of an old rig, or maybe a valve that was concentrating baitfish, and snapper. There were snapper approaching 30 pounds taken here - and none of those fish appeared in any of the government's "scientific" snapper population surveys. There are other spots like this one found every year, most of them kept fairly secret. The fish caught off manned rigs by personel fishing on their off time - many of which are sold illegally, are also not included in catch surveys, and there are a hell of a lot of manned rigs in the Gulf. Most experienced snapper fishermen feel the regulations of the past helped the fishery, that there are more and bigger fish available than 20 years ago, when there wer no limits. Fishermen have for the most part supported and worked with the regulatory agencies on this, but now feel they are being negatively rewarded for their compliance.

[Hyena Love]

No Judge found the NMFS service "negligent" in regulating snapper. "Negligence" was not, and is not, a question or an issue.

What was found by the Judge is that the NMFS Rebuilding Plan, Amend. 22, had less than a 50% chance of rebuilding the fishery within the time periods required by law and the predictions of future events were not based on the data before the regulators. The only issue truly raised was shrimper by catch.

Once the fishery is declared overfished, there is no wait and see provision under the law. Thats what the council wanted to do - wait for better data that they hoped would support what was then seen by many as a failing plan. The Sec. basically had to step in with the interim rule because the council failed and refused to act as required by the law.

Further, the eastern Gulf is not wiped out of snapper or only beginning to recover. 40% of the recreational catch of red snapper in recent periods comes from Alabama. They have a huge artificial reef program over there, and great numbers for the last decade or so.

Snapper are four at 15 inches in State waters.

[Capt. DQ]

This will likely result in 20 snapper killed (as porpoise food) for every two brought in legally.

How right you are!

If recreational snapper fishermen would be allowed to keep four fish, anything over 12" without culling (?) plus Captain & deckhand included in the count. That would help prevent the above if fishermen would stick to that and the stocks would come back, instead of feeding every purpoise in the Gulf a bunch of snapper. Then put a closed season in for everybody during winter month's for the Gulf and not accounting for Hurricanes that happen also.

The Commerical guys would be cut in total poundage, and have a closed season also.

Just like the offshore bullshit of circle hooks, that is not based on good science either or fact on trolling @ 6-10kts that a billfish is going to get gut hooked. The NMFS/NOAA wants the Billfish Tournaments to help police that rule on both East & Gulf Coasts and how are Tournment Chairmen going to do that is beyond me without having spotters on every boat.

And the wheel keeps on turning for the foreign bunch who don't care, catch everything till its gone!

They gonna give our quota's to everybody else.

Just one opinion,

DQ

[scot]

Personally I think that shrimper's by-catch has a devastating impact on all our fishing stocks...but I like to eat shrimp so I won't throw the shrimpers under the bus. Ultamately I think that open ocean commercial shrimping industry is doomed. It's just too easy to farm raise the little guys. All of Red Lobster's shrimp are farm raised....taste fine to me. Betweens TEDs, fuel cost, insurance, By-catch extruders and recreational fisherman political pressure how can they make it?

Plus the farm raised "scrimps" all come the same size...how handy is that for your favorite dish.

I don't think people care if their shrimp come from a pond in Equador. They don't care that their Crawfish now come from China. Cooked any Chinese Crawfish lately UV?

[In Memory of Vicroy]

Capt. Mike - as for the small letters, I being of poor eyesight use a special blow up program, but someone showed me if you hold down the "ctrl" key and rotate your mouse wheel toward the screen it makes the letters bigger, and do the reverse to make them smaller....neat trick.

UV

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Sorry, I guess I used a little journalistic license with the term, "negligent". What the judge (Melinda Harmon, U.S. District Judge) said was that NMFS violated the Magnuson-Stevens Act by its continuing failure to take timely and appropritate steps to rebuild the red snapper stock in the Gulf, or to regulate the harm to red snapper caused by shrimping. She also found, among other points, that the facts relied upon by NMFS to support its plan were unreasonable or unwarranted based on the information available to the government. This is from a CCA press release.

My original intent was just to say that snapper limits were dropping to 2 fish per day, and I don't personally agree with it. The people who come up with most of the snapper "science" have little or no knowledge of the species, have never caught one, and never been on the Gulf. Further, they are not fishermen. Fishermen know that just because we don't always catch fish doesn't mean they aren't there. They don't feed all the time, and you have to find them to catch them when they are feeding. Charter captains will all tell you they often have customers who are not able to catch many fish, because of poor fishing and listening skills. Nature puts its own limits on fish catches that are much more effective than those of man, and does a better job of rebuilding fish stocks as well.

I have advocated, in print, for many years practising "catch and quit", like Doug proposed. Catch 4 or 5 snapper of any reasonable size for the box and move on to another species. No culling to feed Flipper. No release mortality. When I talked to the Texas Coastal Fisheries Director, he had the same view, and asked me to keep writing about it. He says they have proposed this to NMFS, who countered that it was unenforceable, but none of the current regs are enforceable, either, too few federal game wardens, and the Coast Guard has more important stuff to do. Several years ago, NMFS was urged by a charter group to raise the minimum size to 18 inches to extend the season one more month. There were 16 inch snapepr floating all over the Gulf, and they had to admit it was a bad move - killed more fish than leaving things alone for a month would ever have done.

This is the last I'll write on this subject (maybe calmed the other thread argument down some). Recreational fishing is in for a tough future if fishermen don't get active and try to get the facts across, find a middle ground, if nothing else. NMFS has classified snapper as overfished for a long time, they just haven't done anything to successfully improve the situation - or back up their position. Practically everything is overfished or undergoing overfishing, by their definitions, including triggerfish. The only exceptions i know of are king and Spanish mackerel, and they were only recently taken out of that category.

Thanks, Uncle Vic, that mouse thing is a neat - and helpful - trick.

[scot]

I completely agree with catch a few and stop....reguardless of the snapper's size. What good is catch & release on a fish species that typically explodes when you catch it??? Nuts.

[Geaux Deep]

Mike & Ernest,

I would like to offer my $0.02 here if I may. I currently get most of my income operating off shore charters out of Port Mansfield, TX. About 80% of my charters target Red Snapper. 95% of these snapper trips are in Texas waters and it normally takes about 4 hours dock to dock to catch a boat limit of 8-12lb snappers. I chartered some last summer for a lodge with 3 other boats. Each day left the dock at 7:30-8:00 am back at noon. All boats caught limits of nice snapper. We were only checked once by TP&WD and that was mostly a license and safety check. No federal person has ever in the last 3 years counted my boat's catch or anyone else that I know of that snapper fishes out of Port Mansfield.

I did 36 state water trips last year consisting of an average of 4 clients per trip. Boat limit every trip however in Texas waters the Captain and Deckhand can't keep any snappers.

My personal observation is that recreational, commercials and shrimpers all kill small snapper. I find that the shrimpers kill a lot of small snapper (several hundred yards of by catch). I find the commercials kill a lot of 10-14" snapper (I am talking acres of floating snapper). I find the recreational folks only have a few floaters due mainly to the different fishing methods. Bandits, Nets and rod & reel.

What I don't understand is why if a commercial can keep a 13": snapper and it is good for the snapper recovery but if a recreational keeps a 13" snapper it is BAD for the snapper recovery. The recreational only makes floaters out of the 13" snapper. That can't be good.
What is the logic behind this management decision?

My conclusion about best available science (data) is that this is not a high school science experiment. If data is not available then PLEASE don't make a decision based on best guess. That was the problem with the 18" red snapper limit.

IMO - it's not the faulty science but faulty management that is the problem.

Food for thought: Who is addressing the real problem?

[AndreF]

It is indeed a tough nut and inexact science makes it tougher.
Before Katrina, when I used to fish alot, I tagged red fish and specked trout and sometimes red snapper. I guess I tagged maybe 10-15 red snapper. I remember two of these fish- a high percentage, I think, were recovered months later, larger and healthy (one was even caught by a game warden), my notes on the tag card at the time of the catch were "fish struggled on the surface until it drifted out of sight". I was surprised and happy they lived. I did not prick the air bladders.

[Hyena Love]

GD.

The logic is as follows:

Comms have an estimated 80% release mortaility. Thus, basically all those 13 to 14.999 inchers are dead anyway. If they are killing them, at least have them keep them, count them towards the TAC, and sell them for cash rather than feed the crabs. There is a market for 13 to 14.999 inch fish.

For the recs., the estimated release mortality is only 40%. As such, allowing recs. to keep 13 to 16 inchers means they fill the TAC that much sooner, resulting in a shorter season. The idea that the first 4 fish will extend the season or allow us to fish year round (with the curent estimated release mortaility) was rejected under the NMFS model well over a year ago. Basically, most of these 13 to 15.999 inch fish survive and have a chance to spawn.

Another part of the issue is the increased fishing pressure by recs. if the size is dropped. Essentially, on the ice cream days, there will be a parking lot of jon boats over every hump within ten miles of the upper coast hammering 13 to 15 inch fish.

Yet another part of the recs issue is that the release mortality has a significant depth component. Fish dragged up from 200 feet are much more likely to die than fish dragged up from 45 to 65 feet. North of Freeport towards Venice, the rec. snapper fishery is a relatively shallow water fishery. As such, the rec. release mortality is thought to be even less, further undermining the need for a first four rule.

Finally, its it widely believed that under any first four rule, the recs. will cull. Everyone will get a limit and arguably, the same basic number of fish will be killed by the recs, if not more.

Increased enforcement is a red herring, IMHO. The LEO's are asset limited, and the budgets are already bursting with all of the other tasks they have been assigned (illegals, homeland security, Coast Guard's big ship fleet rebuilding project.) Tex. Parks are similarly facing major budget problems.

Now, on the science point, the law is relatively clear. Lack of good science is not an excuse to refuse to regulate. They have to go forward on the best data available. Their mandate is to err on the side of caution.

Thats the nature of science. It always gets better, and it is rarely perfect. It moves forward. Take gravity. People have known of its existence forever, yet we still have an imperfect understanding of the mechanism thru which it operates. Is it a wave? Is it a particle? Is it both? Notwithstanding my imperfect understanding of how it specifically operates, I still strap on a parachute before I jump out of a plane.

[scot]

Hyena Love,

This rings true for Global warming as well.

Now, on the science point, the law is relatively clear. Lack of good science is not an excuse to refuse to regulate.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Again, didn't mean to stir a pot, just to give a heads up on the new limit.
Read where some guys out of Port Mansfield got fined for bringing in two days limits of snapper on an overnight trip in federal waters. They didn't know that wasn't legal. Would have been in state waters. You can only keep two days limit in federal waters on a charter or headboat with two licensed captains aboard, not on a private boat - another regulation that isn't well publicized.

State of Texas IS planning to drop the mimum size to 13 inches.

[Hyena Love]

Mike - No reason to be so apologetic. Its no big thing. Not like we are talking about anyone's momma.

You and I go back a ways. You are never going to offend me, and I know you are thick skinned enough to not be offended by anything I might say.

Its not an issue with me. Seriously.

[Capt. Mike Holmes]

Ernest, actually, I feel a bit sensitive in dealing with you for exactly that reason. Not long ago you mentioned once having blonde hair, until you coated your tank with coal tar. Well, you and I both know the hair was white, and it came from when I almost ran over the Port Eads jetty in Lil' Bert that time!

I plan to go fish with Capt. Randle to get some GOOD "Texas" snapper fishing pretty soon, and I picked up a 4 foot green light at the TOWA conference in McAllen for cheap, so I need to plan some night trips in the Gulf soon, both deepwater and in closer. We need to get together.

Just don't give me no mo' backtalk about snapper regs!