How Bertram Lost It's Mojo

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Apr 20th, '15, 18:48

My copy of the May issue of "Power and Motoryacht" magazine arrived today. Quickly thumbing through it I discovered on page 48 a short single page article titled "How Bertram Lost It's Mojo". Written by Michael Peters, who always seems to pointedly and emphatically state his opinions without reservation. He tells what a lot of us suspected, mainly that the Ferretti people lost their way, "straying away from it's (Bertram's) hard core roots and becoming an out-of-touch brand", as he says their boats were becoming "soft Italian motoryachts", and the delamination hull failures of two 63' boats sealed it's fate.

I doubt most of us will learn anything new in this article, but it certainly distills Bertram's demise into a relatively few paragraphs.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 20th, '15, 20:32

First the bean counters started to make them lower quality to cut costs, then someone decided they new better in design, had to appeal to the woman, then they got sold to someone who knew the US market but didn't now supposedly they were sold again, but seems that they are really gone for good.

The way of other american company's, just run into the ground by those that thought they knew better.

wmachovina · Post by **wmachovina** » Apr 20th, '15, 21:11

Bean counters. The bain of civilization. Hope I didn't offend anyone but I. Doubt anybody on this site is thusly affected. If they were,they're crappy bean counters.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Apr 21st, '15, 04:30

Im bean counter, its easy to blame them, but much/most of the direction of a company is determined by owners and the board of directors. They lost touch with their market. If/when costs are to be cut, the dollars to be saved are summeld up by accountants, but the engineers job is to say "yes but using that lesser resin will weaken the boat" and the owners make the decision not the accountants.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 21st, '15, 08:02

That theory works only when you don't have VC investors or stock holders yelling for higher dividends. Then the command to the engineers becomes design and build it with what your given or we will find ones who can.

A perfect example of this was the Indian motorcycle company revived in the late 90's. During a boom in the bike market they allowed the bean counters from the california pension fund investors to call the shots and put out a shit product, the public saw it and they went bye bye in 04. A time when anything on two wheels was selling.

Feretti has been under investor control due to its heavy debt for a while. Private equity group Candover in 2007 and then chinese after that. They have been towing the line to the bean counters who want a return on their investment Even though the yach market has been down since 07. While the super wealthy continue to buy, they ain't buying Riva and other Ferretti brands because they are not super wealthy yachts. They are mid quality boats at best. I know I've been on them all.

You don't have a major delaminating issue with a long time yacht builder like Bertram by skilled marine architect designers without the cause of one of two reasons. One is unknown bad resin or mat materials and you can bet Bertram would have been holering from the highest mountain had that been the case. The other is knowingly building boats using sub par materials or layups designed to keep costs down which anyone in Bertrams design group would have known would cause issues.

Lets also entertain the tax credits a bankrupt company under an umbrella firm would offer. Bertram was an American company geared toward America buyers who's pockets shrunk. The other brands were more world wide in nature and given the euro trash design features of your typical euro floating whore house clorox bottle, much more desirable.

This is what happens when a womans point of view gets anywhere near a boat design.

scot · Post by **scot** » Apr 21st, '15, 08:59

The name "Bertram" is burned into the minds of nearly everyone in the American boating public as a high quality boat. With that noted, the name has value. I predict at some point the name with be sold to salvage whatever they can from their investment. The next owner might be Bayliner, but at some point there will be a next owner of the name. Probably get stamped on the side of some 35ft go-fast offshore CC with twin or triple 350s.

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Apr 21st, '15, 09:16

I think the market mojo lost Bertram.

The hard to swallow truth is the if Bertram from circa 1980 was in the market today, they would still fail. The market for heavy, overly built, fishing battle wagons is gone. The market is completely different hence why nothing like the 31 Bertram or other iconic Bertram hulls exists today. Today's sport fishing market is about speed, comfort, dual cruising purpose. Looking at the new Vikings we see this trend. The great sport fishers that we know and love from the past (Bertram, Cabo, Hattress,...) are gone and not what they used to be. The market is very different. The desires of 31 Bertram members seem to be an outlyer and do not represent what new large sport fisher buyers want.

Even if the delaminations did not happen, Bertram would still be on the rocks. They were having trouble finding their niche is the larger recreational market.

Just my 2 cents.

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » Apr 21st, '15, 10:07

Although I've spent the past 30 years making my living as an alleged bean counter, I'm not personally offended. However, I think we are missing some key points here -- back when I got into offshore fishing, I read many articles of a famed rivalry called the Bertram Hatteras Shootout -- they were THE boats to own if you were a player in the offshore fishing world for decades. Yes, there were Rybos and Merritts and others I'm sure, but the consistent players in the tournament fishing world were Bertrams and Hatteras.

Over the years both manufacturers saw ups and downs in the US economy, as well as significant changes in the boat market, their ownership structures and their manufacturing processes. I think it is not directly a fault of "bean counters' why Bertram failed so many times. Hatteras has also had some bad times and its parent faced bankruptcy, as well as significant layoffs. But, they are still building boats, beautiful and expensive boats - but not on spec, you want one, go put some money down and they will start your build.

The problem is lack of leadership. A dynamic CEO has to balance the demands of the bean counters along with the demands of the engineers and the customers. Just because the bean counters say we need to make it cheaper doesn't mean the engineers need to cave. The executive with the big shoulders has to step up and either revamp the company into a low cost, low quality builder, or stick with their proud heritage and redirect their manufacturing and sales processes so that they aren't putting themselvs at risk for money they don't have.

The bean counters are just doing their jobs, so to Bruce's point, unless you are VC owned, you reach down between your legs, and find a pair and build quality boats, at a profit, and manage your production and costs such that you don't build multi million dollar boats on your own dime. If you are owned by a VC and you are an offshore sport fishing boat manufacturer, you have to wonder just how much weed the VC smoked before they said "hey, we can buy this undervalued company and cut it up and sell the pieces...." cause that isn't going to happen on this planet.

One bean counter's two cents.

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » Apr 21st, '15, 10:27

I don't fault the "bean counters" as Bertram's first reason for failure... I fault the Ferretti management who pussified what should have been a strong, fast, seaworthy fishing machine. The marketing people are supposed to know what will sell..ie: what the market wants to buy. That, and they were trying to build bigger and bigger boats during an economic downturn when buyers had less money to spend. The new (another Chinese investor) owner will have to find a niche that they can get into and sell at a "small" profit strong, affordable boats rather than fat oversized Euro style swoopy windowed motoryachts. Maybe the traditional market for sportfish style boats has changed, and maybe the existing market can be served by the existing base of manufacturers. Maybe there isn't room for Bertram in today's sportfish market, maybe there is a market for smaller, well built sportfishers designed for the sub 50 foot buyer. For a long time Bertram's reputation was that they built strong, capable fishing machines. The fact that in stressed economic times two disasterous hull failures occurred led to the market losing faith in an old standby drove the final nails into the Bertram coffin. My suspicion is that Bertram is permanently gone now. RIP Bertram.

John Swick · Post by **John Swick** » Apr 21st, '15, 13:07

I thought I recently read in an industry rag that someone was looking at Bertram again with the idea of marketing the smaller boats (20' - 31') ?
Maybe a rumor...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 21st, '15, 14:34

A Bean Counter is a required tool for a business to survive.
Tools don't drive a company...or at least they should not.

I think Bertram started adding frills to make the boats more eye catching, which is not necessarily a bad think. Some older Bertrams are quite sparse on accommodations in my opinion ...but they took the beef away to keep price point...that is a bad thing in my eyes. It's the old rob Peter to pay Paul.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 21st, '15, 23:54

The statement one makes, characterizes the person who makes it, NOT the person who receives it.
If I say that this person is a fool, this makes ME rude, not the other person a fool.

Similarly, the statement that our good old Bertrams make, characterizes our own Bertrams; what statement the Bertram company makes (by their actions, their reduced quality, the frill syndrome etc) is their business.
After all, you can notice this very thing at the dock. People turn their heads to our boats because of what they are, not because of today's Bertram image.
And as far as I'm concerned, this fact should suit me fine...

ed c. · Post by **ed c.** » Apr 22nd, '15, 13:07

Just curious, is Chris craft still in business?

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Apr 22nd, '15, 13:49

Yes, Chris Craft is still around.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 22nd, '15, 21:40

Chris Craft is not the boat it once was thanks to Bertram and Fiberglass. They mad the jump to Fiberglass too late, they jumped in and built a 30 Chris to go head to head with Bertram. Bertram took them to court and forced them to stop production.

I have never been on one, but there are those that say it rides much better than our 31's.

Greg has one he is redoing. Maybe he can comment on the ride.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 22nd, '15, 23:16

There may be life in this old dog yet the deal is done.

Closing of acquisition of Bertram brand by Gavio Group
April 01, 2015
Yesterday, March 31, 2015, was marked by the closing of the acquisition of the brand Bertram by Gavio Group. Bertram represents a historical yachting brand, based in the United States.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 23rd, '15, 06:01

In shipbuilding, the Gavio Group operates through two well-established brands: Baglietto, a long-standing luxury yacht builder, and Cerri Cantieri Navali. (From their web site)

I wonder if the Bertram brand manufacturing will be moved to an established euro plant.

Having long purged any european ancestry and bad taste, it was funny the comments this past September as my family and I sat on the deck of our boat and cruised the Amalfi coast the amount of butt ugly yachts that would anchor next to us. One would think when one spends 20 and 30 million on a yacht that carries a helo that somewhere someone learned what good taste was.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Apr 24th, '15, 22:19

Bruce wrote:somewhere someone learned what good taste was.

Of course, those Europeans think that you have bad taste... Fact of the matter is that just as you can't build a car for all tastes and needs you can't build a boat for all tastes and needs... In my case the B46 Convertible is a compromise between what I want/like to do and what the rest of the family wants/likes to do... Otherwise I would possibly have gone for a B31 or B33...

The Admiral thinks that my two seater cars (91 Mazda Miata, 97 Rover MGF, 2004 Chevrolet SSR and 2007 Chrysler Crossfire) are pretty much useless for anything except transporting yours truly... Of course, she's totally oblivious to the fact that IMHO that's all they're supposed to do... As for everything else we have the family car (previously a Chrysler Town & Country and now a Volvo crossover)...

While the Miata and the Rover are perfectly "acceptable" to the European mind set (with their sub 2 Liter engines) the Crossfire and SSR are considered "decadent" at the very best (mostly based on the fact that they have 3.2 and 5.3 Liter engines respectively)...

As I made clear to the Admiral, my toys are my toys!... As long as they're not at the expense of the Admiral or the Mates I'm not even going to discuss it...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 25th, '15, 09:52

For me, a quality boats starts with a good hull and good motors. Motors, running gear, tanks should be placed where it should go...not where they can find room to cram it ...the rest is icing...think that is the way the 31 Bertram came about...in my little head anyway.

Today boats seem to be styled backwards....hull is configured to fit a style, accommodations and amenities are fit, then they figure out how to stuff motors, running gear, tanks into what room is left. If it performs good and is seaworthy...great...if not, at least it will look good at the dock.

Bob H. · Post by **Bob H.** » Apr 27th, '15, 20:30

To me mojo is measured by time. A boat that can be run hard in various sea conditions and take the beating, shrug it off for the most part then go out and do it again and again and again speaks volumes. The quality construction starts with the hull, our rides are close to 50 years old and still tough as nails. The new stuff being built with coring can be as strong if done correctly. G&S builds cored boats and some are 35 years old and run hard in the charter fleet day in and day out delaminting NO, done right YES. Test your construction methods until you know what will survive. Try several methods not one. Figure it out before you commit millions.
I have crawled around in many a boat, my Dads 37 Bert is a well built boat has stood the test of time, my buddies ocean is limited lifespan boat, you can see it down below, gaps in bulkheads sloppy wiring, nothing lasts, every year another system goes down, hydra sport 33 big etechs outside of the boat looks nice, climb below junk everywhere. Fast hell ya. Where will it be in 50 years? The dump.
If you want your mojo back pass the test of time. Your reputation will follow. Just my 2 cents. BH

Hyena Love · Post by **Hyena Love** » May 8th, '15, 10:04

When we had the Bertram Factory boys down in Panama, the story to me went like this in summary:

1. We can't make a B31 today and sell it. Virtually all the old hulls are still on the water, and the guys that want one have one. In fact, they can buy one cheap, repower how they what it, and basically build a "Buddy Boy" with all the bells and whistles for less than the purchase price of a new stripped down B31 built by the factory.

2. The market has shifted in the mid sized boat market. Under about 33 feet, its now dominated by go fast style out board CC's and cuddies.

3. Its very difficult to maintain a sane price point and build inboard boats less than 33 feet that can run at what the market now expects. 30 knot cruise on flat water is a tall order for diesels that are also controllable around the dock and have good engine life.

4. The mid sized market for inboard boats is dead or dying. Not just Berts, but many of Bert's lesser competitors have struggled or no longer exist. Very few, if any, of the big boys will be making inboards less than about 45 feet in 5 years.

5. The price point for new mid sized boats buys good condition 42's and 45's. Which would you rather have: a new 31 or 33 or a 42 or 45 with fresh power? The hard core guys need either a go fast or a larger boat because they want to run to the canyons when they are available, when work permits, not when its ice cream conditions.

6. With the increases in costs (purchase and operating), the market is now older folks. Not mid-20's and 30's guys. The market now wants comfort, not rain coats on the fly bridge and harrowing adventures in which they cheat death in rough seas.

Thats what I took away from the discussions.

neil · Post by **neil** » May 8th, '15, 15:44

Iam with bob h on this one,I look at all the half million dollars boats leave our inlet and most of them wish they had our boats

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » May 8th, '15, 22:29

Hyena Love wrote: The hard core guys need either a go fast or a larger boat because they want to run to the canyons when they are available, when work permits, not when its ice cream conditions.

I can't tell about a market which I don't know, but this phrase seems like a bottom line to me.

neil wrote:I look at all the half million dollars boats leave our inlet and most of them wish they had our boats

Yeah sure, I also want a Jaguar e-type when I see one, because its cult, because it's beautiful etc, but if I ever spent money on a car it would be a modern one ! Who has time for shop adventures, searching for rare parts... whereas a new modern one does all I want ?!
And it still leaves time for me to admire an old Ferrari or a B31 for that matter !

Mitch · Post by **Mitch** » May 10th, '15, 08:17

I miss u guys,I don't know why I stay away for long periods of time. Whatever. I love listening to you all!! New project 62 B25 convertible #263 thanks for being here.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 11th, '15, 08:39

neil wrote:Iam with bob h on this one,I look at all the half million dollars boats leave our inlet and most of them wish they had our boats

That might be stretching it a bit far...

...I'd concede to they greatly admire the 31's.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 13th, '15, 08:50

Even with the work I put into my 31 it's less than you'd pay to repower a 30 something, center console. At over 40 years old and with the big old harpooning pulpit, I got some laughs as I took her home for the first time, as I drove by all my "buddies" in the marina with Regulators, Contenders and Yellow Fins. I am starting to lose track of how many times in October and November I've run past these guys stacked up inside the inlet wearing their rain gear as we go right by and out a nasty inlet and go find the fish.

Some how they all seem to be much cooler than me because they got to the inlet first, their boats have the mojo. I don't dislike these boats, actually I can really enjoy fishing from them as long as some other idiot holds the mortgage. Of course it requires that you sit in your office constantly refreshing the NOAA report hoping that a day with 3-5s or less allign with your time off so you can do 50mph to the canyon.

More power to these boat builders who continue to be in business because I can't figure out why someone would pay 100k for a 23' everglades bowrider or 200k for a 27' contender. The mid 30' triple outboards at 350-500k are mind blowing.

People seem to have lost their mind..

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » May 13th, '15, 10:38

I hear ya Pete.
In my mind any boat that needs more than 2 outboards should have inboards......and the hundreds of thousands that these center consoles command in price is crazy !!

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » May 13th, '15, 11:50

There is a new GW at my marina (which is one of, if not, the largest GW dealers in New England). It isn't a center console, it is dual console, walk through, bow rider kinda thing. It has a rec room too! No kidding, go down the door in one of the consoles and you find a below deck queen berth! Even more cool, a motorized (I kid you not) sunshade for the aft deck -- God forbid Biff or Missy get too much sun. On the back, a shiney pair of brand new 350hp Yamahas. The boat is 34 feet and it's price, as delivered, began with a FIVE!!!!!!!!!!!

We have a least a dozen 33 Express GWs, all with twin 350s and a half dozen 33 Express/WA GWs as well. The guys that own them are mostly CEOs or small business owners who came down in size from big boats. They have limited time, if if the weather is good, and they have the time, they hook up and run, get to the canyons and fish hard, then turn around and run back home -- well north of 40kts.

Tom

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 13th, '15, 20:57

I think Jimmy G built the 31 that will give these center consoles a run for their money especially if it gets sloppy. Lets give him the summer to run it to the Canyons a few times then he can tell us how well she runs.

Sean B · Post by **Sean B** » May 15th, '15, 17:52

Hey fellas,

My wife saw an article about Bertram in the June edition of Power & Motoryacht, which arrived recently.

We Immediately recognized the guy driving in their first photo:

I hope they did that with your permission, or at the least it makes you happy to see it there. Considering how much you've done to keep the name alive, I think they have the right guy's photo under the headline "The Rebirth of Bertram."

Also Frank will get a kick out of the first sentence:
"The logo for Bertram Yachts has long been an eagle but perhaps these days the mythological phoenix would be more fitting

You can <<read it here>>

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » May 18th, '15, 14:18

... "Another idea is to do something with outboards engines." .............. Oh, oh!

IRGuy · Post by **IRGuy** » May 18th, '15, 15:00

Very interesting article Sean posted above.. I just received my issue of "Power and Motoryacht" magazine (June) where the article is on page 22.

I suppose it is trite to say it, but time will tell what the new owner Beniamino Gavio, who owns Baglietto Yachts and Cerri Yachts, will do, and if what he does resurrects the brand.. he talks about maybe introducing a modern version of the B31, then talks about larger boats, and even mentions outboards.

I doubt that the closing of Bertram by Feretti has any effect on the value of our boats, IMHO they are so old that other things are more important to prospective buyers. But, it would really be great to see some US built Berrtrams at a boat show.

34Hatt · Post by **34Hatt** » May 18th, '15, 21:03

Possible 31 being built again.

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/2015/02/m ... am-yachts/

Dan

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » May 18th, '15, 21:35

It would just be nice to see the name again as long as it gets the respect it deserves. They set the standard out of the box. Then when they lost it, they could not find there way again. It all started when they gave up on the 31 and built the 30 which never went over well.

The 31 would have died or changed drastically eventually, but dropping it seemed to signal the beginning of the end. It was timing, bad judgement on Bertram's part, the economy, all came at one time. So many great boating names are gone or a shell of what they once were. All of them should have learned from Chris Chrafts failure to change. They all fell pray to the old ways will continue to work.

The problem today, too many cheap boats around. Throw away' s. How many people want to even talk about buying a 40 year old boat. No one thinks about keeping one that long, so now boats are even throw away's.

When my father was asked one time why he bought the 31, his response was last boat I will ever have to buy. He owned it until the day he died and never regretted it.

That just does not happen anymore.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » May 19th, '15, 08:09

34Hatt wrote:Possible 31 being built again.

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/2015/02/m ... am-yachts/

Dan

This is encouraging

Carl · Post by **Carl** » May 19th, '15, 10:55

If you have the money...

-does one buy the original classic in classic condition.
-does one buy the classic restored and updated to their own personal taste.

or

-does one buy a revised classic knock off.

I would not have thought the last made much sense...but look at the Chargers, Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers and I am sure a few others that slipped my mind that are throwbacks to the originals and sell...sell well too.

I'd have also thought large Center Console boats would have never taken off like they are...and never in the price range they are.

Still though...glad to hear an American brand may still have another shot at life.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 19th, '15, 11:10

Hueso funny you should mention that (outboards). the largest volume GW dealer in the US on eastern long island at four locations has contacted me to give him advise on building a 31 fbc . i went for the first meeting and was dumbfounded after he laid out the propulsion.i said why in the world would you build a 31 bertram with unlimited 36,34 Grady white`s at your disposal. "i saw your boat Phoenix running back from 40 miles out to the inlet and i had a 36' triple 350 yamaha`s and lost site of your boat in 10 minutes or so at that moment i was hooked on a 31' fbc ,after finding your boat on the internet i contacted you. you were doing better then 26kts. in 5' footer`s and steady as a rock! and i could barely stay on plane along with a multitude of 32' plus center consoles ". Sooooooo i have bend backwards and do this 31' fbc a copy of mine including color combination/winshield/windows, with twin 350 outboards .he has very deep pockets and intends to fish Cuba now that it is open to fishing from his house in the Keys. i should think with the huge area open under the engine box enough weight in fuel capacity can be added to counter the weight of the 350's on transom. this is not my idea but he can change those 350's like changing a pair of shoes so be it.
he mention that prior to this agreement with US- Cuba you would have to declare a Mayday and a cuban navy boat would escort you to harbor any other reason in cuban waters and your in deep trouble and they will hold boat indefinitely.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » May 19th, '15, 12:53

Bob, I know we don't like to be reminded, but.....

Patriot Act. Know your client, deal above board, not in cash, report suspicious transactions, copies of identification papers etc.

This is just about beaten into us insurance brokers.

Just be careful if you don't know the buyer. Lots of drug runners down in that neck of the woods.

Regards,

Joe

TailhookTom · Post by **TailhookTom** » May 19th, '15, 14:31

If I'm fishing down in Florida, and want speed......I'm running one of these....http://www.fountainpowerboats.com/Boats/SF_38_TE.html

I couldn't keep up with one of them when I was fishing a 50' diesel Willis down in Morehead City, and that Willis was a hell of a sea boat.

Tom

Hueso · Post by **Hueso** » May 20th, '15, 17:42

Bob:

"Be careful with what he wishes for..." I really doubt that he will get your numbers with a pair of 350 outboards, much less if you add additional fuel tanks. I do not understand why go that route when you have reliable diesel power. Not to mention if Cuba really opens up, diesel will be easier to get there than gasoline.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » May 21st, '15, 16:32

this is not my boat nor will i ever fish CUBA. the boat belongs to the owner of Spelman marine and to be used from his home in key west florida. i guess he can wheel and deal for those motors and pay next to nothing.i know he knows they will "explode" in 1200 hours but he is in the business.i have nothing to do with powering it just advise on windshield,windows,head,interior modification.the rest is up to him.