She's alive! ....sorta...trans issue

[coolair]

After taking an extremely long time to get the new tank in. The boat is finally running again, still have to get the deck back on, but it's nice to she her on the water. Boat has set for a while, so had carbs done, had a couple bent push rods, but motors seem to be solid (460 fords). Starboard motor got a little warm at WOT, but I need to clean heat exchangers. With bout 100gals and no deck hit 33 knots at WOT. Not bad I think. But on way back first the starboard transmission started smoking, checked it and it was low, had just topped them off before I left. So shut it down. Then almost back to dock, port transmission started smoking, and slipping. When got back to dock it was alittle low. It will not go into gear until you get it to 1000 rpm or so. Fluid is burned, no metal but a bit of what I think is clutch material in the screen. The starboard is going in and out of gear but with a bit of delay. They are BW velvet drives 1.5:1. Have no idea of hours on them. Time for a rebuild??

[Hyena Love]

Land & Sea in La Marque rebuilt my BW. I recall it being about $1,000 in 2005 or so. THat was after I removed, and I did the re-install.

I have two BW's in my garage now. They came off small block chevy's and were running great when removed. If they can help you, let me know.

[Harry Babb]

Just for a thought.....

The last time I rebuilt a BW gear was about 10 years ago.

As I remember, a "Soft Parts" kit was around $100. Its also worth the additional $20/$30 bucks to replace the "Release Spring" in the forward clutch pack......helps stop walking in neutral.

Their not difficult to rebuild at all and as I remember it does not involve special tools.

If the "Input" shaft is corroded in the seal area......a trick is to have a machine shop undercut that area about 1/32" then overlay with Stainless Steel and machine back to size........about a 3 hour job.

hb

[Rawleigh]

You may need to replace your oil coolers too. If your fluid is low that is the probable exit route. Lenco makes some nice cupro nickel replacements.

[coolair]

Thanks guys.

I think the BWs on the small blocks are different that what I have but thank you very much for the offer. Rawleigh, I am pretty sure the coolers are OK, but they will be checked at the very least. if anything leaked I think it is the output shaft seals, I did not replace them when I removed the flange and had it faced but I am just not sure.
At this point I know the rebuild is not terribly difficult and I could do it, I just don't have the time, the last project I started aka the tank has taken me several years. And honestly would like a professional opinion of the mounts and alignment of everything. Lord knows if I remove them it may take several more years to get them back in. Land & Sea said a complete rebuild is about 1200 bucks, plus their guys can have them out in a couple hours. I want the boat up and running I am tired of seeing her sit. So I am going to have them do it. Once that is done I will be confident in the running gear, I can get the deck back on and use the boat, then start doing the wiring, generator and everything else little by little.

[Carl]

You save money on some projects to pay for things like this when you say enough is enough and just want it done.

[Hyena Love]

Alignment is not terribly difficult. I would not worry about that too much. It only seems daunting until you do it, then it seems like a piece of cake (other than laying on your belly and reaching thru the deck).

If the coolers are more than a couple years old, and they are raw water cooled, consider replacing now. One way to check for leaks is to look at the water outflow. If the cooler is leaking, it will produce a pronounced sheen on the exhaust water. If your output shaft is leaking, it leaks in the boat. What does the bilge water look like?

[coolair]

I am going to replace the coolers to just be on safe side. Already called land and sea and gave them green light they will hit the boat tommorrow or Thursday. I do not think they are leaking though. I used some left over fuel line todo the hoses, maybe not the right stuff. My concern with alignment is the vibration. See the starboard motor. Thinking motor mounts??
http://s967.photobucket.com/user/whitse ... l.mp4.html

[Carl]

Shaft and wheel is in good shape?

Shaft hard to turn by hand?

[coolair]

Just did props, cutlass bearings, had coupler and transmission flange faced. Both shafts checked. The starboard shaft was bent at the taper, but I was told it was straightened and should be good.

[Tooeez]

Motor mounts might be worth a look. If the shaft was bent behind the strut it probably means that wheel hit something--hard-- at some point in its life. The shock might have separated the rubber from the mount. I have also seen the lag bolts pull out of the stringers a little bit. Either way the alignment is OK at rest, but when under load at speed the engine shifts a little.

[coolair]

So both trannys are out and the shafts are worn where the ride on bushings. They recommend buying a rebuilt from someone out of Florida. Said it would be cheaper than them doing it in house. So, should I go back with B/W or switch to ZFs in case I go to diesel in future?

[Harry Babb]

Matt.....I'm not exactly sure but I think changing to ZF would mean a good bit on Mount Work......I am thinking that you have the 72 Series BW gears......and if this is true the input shaft is on the same centerline as the output shaft......the ZF (220) gear is designed so that the output shaft centerline is a bit lower than the input shaft....which means that you will have to raise the engine a few inches to make the ZF fit.....this is simply my opinion as best I know the gear design

[coolair]

Harry that is correct, I have the 72s, so it would take a bit of work to make it happen, the other question was if the ZFs are reversible, as I have a counter rotating engine. They have a reman set of zf45(I think) but he said those could not be flipped. He was going to make a few calls for me on Monday to see what all available. I asked him about welding the shafts, and he said it could be done. I believe he said TMI out of Florida was the place to go, but I don't know

[Harry Babb]

Matt.....I don't know nutin bout the ZF 45's......Most here that have the ZF gears are running the IRM 220's and most with the Downangle output shaft and in the diesel applications both engines turn Standard Rotation.....its as simple as running one transmission in "Forward" and one in "Reverse" to make the shafts counter rotate.

What shaft is it that is worn in your BW's?.......and what area on the shaft is worn?......a much better more passive way of reclaiming worn areas like I think you are talking about is to have the shaft "Ground" slightly undersize......then "Chromed" oversize......and then ground back to original specs.

But there again......The $$$$$ have to come into the picture somewhere.......

hb

[Kevin]

I have the ZF45's in mine. They run the same ratio forward and reverse. Actually there is no forward or reverse per say. Just depends on how you hook up the shifter cable for the propeller rotation. You only need to carry one spare prop if you are into that kind of thing. 8 degree down angle on them I think and my boat was originally set up with Velvet 71's so there is some work involved with making the switch. You would likely need longer shafts or spacers between the output shaft and coupler. I just used 1 inch spacer and slid the engines all the way aft to the bulkhead. Spacers make it a bit more challenging for doing an alignment though. Good transmission so far.

[Harry Babb]

Matt

This whole idea of using the ZF gear started with the idea that the gears would be a step towards a diesel conversion in the future......

I don't think the ZF 45's will stand up to Cummins engines in the 250+ HP range.....and not sure about other engine choices.....

My opinion would be to repair or replace the BW gears and deal with the diesel conversion when the time comes...

hb

[Kevin]

Looking back at original post I question whether ZF45 will hold up to big blocks. Mine is 212 HP and around 360 torque. Harry is right, no way will the ZF45 work with Cummins 6B series.
I watched a friend rebuild my Velvet Drives and he never looked at a book. The discs were good along with everything else. He basically re-sealed them. It did not cost much but there was no damage to mine, it was preventative in nature since I had no clue what I had. He told me they were basically bullet proof transmissions.
Unfortunately, he is no longer with us and everything at his store is being cleared/sold out by his family as they don't have the time or knowledge to run the store. It was my favorite store in town or in the state for that matter and the last of its kind. It was the kind of place with fiberglass tube in stock, transmissions everywhere, water pumps , starters you name it. Sad to see it close.

[Carl]

There are a tons of 72's around. For little money you should be able to pick one up as a donor on a rebuild. Have to think many marine mechanics may be able to put their hand on one and do the rebuild for little money...

I was talking to my guy some years ago and asked him how hard it would be to add reduction gears to my tranny as I was running 1:1 and had dads old Gears with reduction just sitting on the RTO's...but his needed a rebuild...he thought for about a second before telling me he had a set of 1:2, 1.56:1 and a pair, and a pair...the guy in that boat is tossing out this and that guy has his for sale...

Just another option. Sometimes new parts are overrated...

[coolair]

I think, as usual I am over thinking the process. Harry, it the input and pinion cage/output shaft that are worn. Which I know could be repaired in the way you say, and he told me they could. But what I comes down to is what is the most cost effective. The ZF idea is out, just wondering Kevin, why did you replace with ZFs and not BW?
I think at this point I am going to replace the transmission with a rebuilt set. I am sure the boat guy down the street may have a pair laying round, and there are a lot on the internet, but it comes down to reliability and piece of mind. Is saving a couple hundred bucks worth being stranded off shore? Like you said earlier Carl, sometimes letting someone do it, really saves money in the end.
Thanks Guys.

[Rawleigh]

Don;t forget Speedi-sleeves if it is just the seal wear surface that is worn.

[Kevin]

Matt,
When I re-powered my choice was the ZF 45 or ZF 63. I think that is what they came with as the straight 6 cylinder Steyr would be too long when paired with my original Velvet drives.
I went with the lower power output 212hp mated to ZF 45 because I did not want to get bigger diameter running gear. I just used what was in the boat already which was 1 1/8.

I wish I had the money to go all the way. 250hp engine and the boat would fly but would have required the ZF 63.

[STraenkle]

Just saying.. When ethanol wiped out my 454's with BW 1.5, I sold both motors with working gears for $1,500, and I thought I did well. the BW gears the guy was going to toss anyway, he had an IO and wanted to make 1 running engine out of the 3. His existing blown motor and the two running I sold him, yes they still ran, but one I had to replace a shattered lifter on (Bob, let me know if that is the wrong term), lots of metal in the pan after that. I bet you could get new/used gears for very small money.

[coolair]

I wish it was as simple as where the seals go. But it's not. I am going to find out how much to have the shafts ground and chromed. But I have the "old " style velvet drives and they and the major parts are not easy to come by. They stopped making them some time around 1978. Brand new units are north of 4k and remains are 3k because basically I don't have a core. So going to search the web as well

[Rawleigh]

Matt: Hale Marine have always been the go to guys for BW's around here. They may be able to help you with parts or a rebuilt unit.

http://www.halemarine.com/

They have a rebuilt1:1.51 72 unit with 6 month warranty for $1,500.00.

http://www.halemarine.com/index.php?mai ... cts_id=117

model 72 parts list:

http://www.halemarine.com/index.php?mai ... cPath=1_19

[coolair]

Thank you!

[coolair]

So
Hale marine would have been way to go, but since I don't have cores, they would have had to go through theirs to find some. They also are so busy they wouldn't know if they did for a couple months. I found a couple old crusty transmission guys in Florida that had parts, and I am sure they could have done the job, but who knows and they are pretty far if something goes wrong. I ended up letting land and sea get them from a rebuilder they use on a regular basis, cost me more but I have an installer that is backing the product, not just something I found on eBay.

So the trannys are probably original to the boat..1969. So even thought they had been rebuilt at least once I would say someone got their money's worth. Also the transmission mounts are original, and from what I found are what mercruiser used around 1969. So that mean the boat could have had 427 mercruisers originally??