The letter was a response to a article in August Professional Boatbuilder:
Your August articles regarding Ethanol continue to expand the growing number of troubling issues regarding boats that are using Gasohol (E10). For many Bertram boat owners it has become a case of double heartburn. I continue to receive calls from owners with questions regarding their fiberglass tank and what to expect if they start using E10. Unfortunately, the recreational boating press with misinformation and complex detail has not helped reduce the anxiety. One well intentioned writer extracted some data from the Fiberglass Institute stating that the industry changed their resin in the 70's to accommodate Ethanol. What they failed to explain, was that the Institute represents only the commercial fuel storage tanks and piping. Even Bertram failed to get it right when they were telling owners that they had changed resin in 1985 and boats built after that date would not have a problem. Wrong! We did change the resin supplier for the fuel tanks in the 80's to satisfy UL Marine. This required only a certified flame retardant resin which, at that time, was Hetron 26252. Specifications for the UL certifications were approved in 1982 but records show we were still using bulk ortho. resin and adding the Antimony Trioxide as late as 1985. Records also show that by 1986-87 we had switched to the Hetron resin.
I have since gone on record that all Bertram fiberglass fuel tanks from 1961 to 1990+ that will use Gasohol are venerable to some level of degeration, How long it will take for failure to occur remains a mystery. The belief, that if a fiberglass fuel tank is constructed with Vinyl Ester or Epoxy resin the problem would not exist is simply not supported by any industry data that I am aware of. The truth is, not all Vinyl Ester resins are suitable for Gasohol. In fact the resin that is suitable for pure Ethanol is not suitable for Gasohol.
There is also a real concern for metal tanks with the possibility of corrosion and or galvanic reaction due to the water content and character of Ethanol. It is no secret that Ethanol is a solvent and is ionic conductive, even though it is considered a poor conductor.
Finally, I have committed to a program of tank replacement and guidance for all gasoline powered Bertram's. We are, at this point, working to organize the tank information which includes many different tank configurations within a single model, some of which were in production over a 40 year period. Interplastic Corporation has been extremely helpful in selecting the proper resin for the replacement tanks. Therefore, in order to assure the tank longevity the resin must meet UL 1316 "All Fuels".
LEE DANA AND ASSOCIATES
Marine Consultants
210 Ocean Beach Trail
Vero Beach, Florida 32963
Phone: 772-234-5211
Fax: 772-234-2590
Lee Dana Comments on Gasohol (E10)
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
Lee Dana Comments on Gasohol (E10)
Last edited by Capt. Ed on Sep 13th, '06, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
1979 Bertram 33' FBC
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
Lee Dana,
Thank you so much for that informative reply to all of our questions.
Would you please claify the specification :
80’ ?
I am sure it makes perfect sense to you, and changes little of what you have posted...But what does it mean?
Also;
" The truth is, not all Vinyl Ester resins are suitable for Gasohol. In fact the resin that is suitable for pure Ethanol is not suitable for Gasohol. "
This is a huge help.
Thank you,
Peter
Thank you so much for that informative reply to all of our questions.
Would you please claify the specification :
80’ ?
I am sure it makes perfect sense to you, and changes little of what you have posted...But what does it mean?
Also;
" The truth is, not all Vinyl Ester resins are suitable for Gasohol. In fact the resin that is suitable for pure Ethanol is not suitable for Gasohol. "
This is a huge help.
Thank you,
Peter
Jeekers... I just realized that Cap. Ed posted that reply from Professional Boat Builder. Lee Dana doesn't give a snort about us old Bertram owners!
Wouldn't it be cool if the man that had been in the engineering dept for all those years gave a scat about the boats he built?
Does he have an E-Mail adress?
Peter
Wouldn't it be cool if the man that had been in the engineering dept for all those years gave a scat about the boats he built?
Does he have an E-Mail adress?
Peter
Peter,
I think you would be surprised if you called Lee and chatted with him about it.
I called Lee when I was thinking about putting the Rotary engines on my B26 versus heavy diesels and outboards. We must have talked about 45 minutes on the subject. I found him to be very personable. Most of his income comes from refurbishing older larger Bertrams and other models for individual customers.
Lee also sent me scans of the original Bertram B26 brochures. He has copies of a lot of Bertram material that Bertram no longer keeps.
Chiles
I think you would be surprised if you called Lee and chatted with him about it.
I called Lee when I was thinking about putting the Rotary engines on my B26 versus heavy diesels and outboards. We must have talked about 45 minutes on the subject. I found him to be very personable. Most of his income comes from refurbishing older larger Bertrams and other models for individual customers.
Lee also sent me scans of the original Bertram B26 brochures. He has copies of a lot of Bertram material that Bertram no longer keeps.
Chiles
Peter,
You are dead wrong about Lee Dana, that man has a never ending love for all Bertrams.
I had asked Lee to send that to me to post on Bertram33.com where, like you we have been concerned about our tanks.
Here is a post from Frank Price on the B33 Forum after speaking with Lee:
OK,
I talked to Lee Dana today . He's a decent guy to talk to and gave me a number of the resin that made sense to the guy at ashland. We chatted about a few issues with our boats and it was nice to make a connection with him and I don't think he's tired of talking about our boats yet, thankfully.
One interesting point he made: He's been trying to contact ashland and they haven't returned his call or email request, so he is making a little bit of an assumption that this hetron resin used after '85 or so , is not compatible with ethanol/ gas, since it wasn't spec'd for that, only flame retardation. So I called the guy at Ashland and chatted with him about the resin, which he did recognize now. He cannot say that this resin will hold up in an ethanol /gas mix because to the best of his knowlege it has never been tested for that use. The method they use for testing entails making a piece out of the resin, submerging it with both sides exposed and then checking it after a month , then three months, then six months and then a year. At each check they compare the stiffness and a few other criteria and in the end I guess if it has failed fity percent, then it is no good.
He is going to do a test like this of this particular resin. I said I will call him in january to see how it's going.
It seems to me that we do have a chance of this resin passing or at least we'll have an idea what to expect when it does fail. As far as the older tanks, I would recommend keeping an eye on them and at some time it is inevitable that they will fail, reguardless of the fuel used, so it is a good thing that Lee is working with Glasstech(I think) to make replacements.
All in all, an interesting day and I don't think it was all bad news.
Frank Price
1987 SF "Jeanne Claire"
Rowley Ma
You are dead wrong about Lee Dana, that man has a never ending love for all Bertrams.
I had asked Lee to send that to me to post on Bertram33.com where, like you we have been concerned about our tanks.
Here is a post from Frank Price on the B33 Forum after speaking with Lee:
OK,
I talked to Lee Dana today . He's a decent guy to talk to and gave me a number of the resin that made sense to the guy at ashland. We chatted about a few issues with our boats and it was nice to make a connection with him and I don't think he's tired of talking about our boats yet, thankfully.
One interesting point he made: He's been trying to contact ashland and they haven't returned his call or email request, so he is making a little bit of an assumption that this hetron resin used after '85 or so , is not compatible with ethanol/ gas, since it wasn't spec'd for that, only flame retardation. So I called the guy at Ashland and chatted with him about the resin, which he did recognize now. He cannot say that this resin will hold up in an ethanol /gas mix because to the best of his knowlege it has never been tested for that use. The method they use for testing entails making a piece out of the resin, submerging it with both sides exposed and then checking it after a month , then three months, then six months and then a year. At each check they compare the stiffness and a few other criteria and in the end I guess if it has failed fity percent, then it is no good.
He is going to do a test like this of this particular resin. I said I will call him in january to see how it's going.
It seems to me that we do have a chance of this resin passing or at least we'll have an idea what to expect when it does fail. As far as the older tanks, I would recommend keeping an eye on them and at some time it is inevitable that they will fail, reguardless of the fuel used, so it is a good thing that Lee is working with Glasstech(I think) to make replacements.
All in all, an interesting day and I don't think it was all bad news.
Frank Price
1987 SF "Jeanne Claire"
Rowley Ma
Last edited by Capt. Ed on Sep 14th, '06, 22:53, edited 2 times in total.
1979 Bertram 33' FBC
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
You guys are right...and I am wrong.
My eyes must have glazed over when I got to the part where Lee Dana states he "has committed to a program of tank replacement and guidence for all gasoline powered Bertrams."
I apologize to Lee Dana for my unwarranted remarks. I was flat out wrong.
I'd like to reiterate my thanks to him as I expressed in my first post.
And thanks to all of you here for setting me straight!.
Peter
My eyes must have glazed over when I got to the part where Lee Dana states he "has committed to a program of tank replacement and guidence for all gasoline powered Bertrams."
I apologize to Lee Dana for my unwarranted remarks. I was flat out wrong.
I'd like to reiterate my thanks to him as I expressed in my first post.
And thanks to all of you here for setting me straight!.
Peter
-
frank price
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 19:45
- Location: Rowley, Ma
The other day I sent some questions to Lee from the B33 forum, below is his reply. Make NO MISTAKE, this man knows what he is talking about and loves HIS Bertrams! After 29 years with Bertram, how couldn't he?
Ed. I will not attempt to answer all the questions that you and others have asked.
There are so many variables to contend with that any statement of fact would be stupid for me to pose. I can however, share some relative facts.
31's built in the early 60's had the gel coat on the outside. National energy problems of the 70's and 80's had a direct effect on resin and gel coat quality. Northeast states marine fuel retailers only sell Gasohol.
As far as my article hurting rather than helping, If the truth hurts so be it.
One fact I will share. In 2003 I was commissioned to design a series of gas fuel tanks for a production builder. My resin specification was selected as being suitable for Ethanol. In April of 06 the builder contacted me because the resin supplier had gone on record that they should change their resin to one that was suitable for Gasohol. About the time I started to be deluged with phone calls from Bertram owners wanting to know what to do!. I guess the rest is history.
Regards LD
I did learn yesterday that Ashland (Hetron) is in the process of testing and will have answers in one year!!!.
Ed. I will not attempt to answer all the questions that you and others have asked.
There are so many variables to contend with that any statement of fact would be stupid for me to pose. I can however, share some relative facts.
31's built in the early 60's had the gel coat on the outside. National energy problems of the 70's and 80's had a direct effect on resin and gel coat quality. Northeast states marine fuel retailers only sell Gasohol.
As far as my article hurting rather than helping, If the truth hurts so be it.
One fact I will share. In 2003 I was commissioned to design a series of gas fuel tanks for a production builder. My resin specification was selected as being suitable for Ethanol. In April of 06 the builder contacted me because the resin supplier had gone on record that they should change their resin to one that was suitable for Gasohol. About the time I started to be deluged with phone calls from Bertram owners wanting to know what to do!. I guess the rest is history.
Regards LD
I did learn yesterday that Ashland (Hetron) is in the process of testing and will have answers in one year!!!.
1979 Bertram 33' FBC
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
In our forum on B33, Tony had called my firend Kevin about our tanks and resins, here is Tony's post I think you will find it useful:
I spoke to Kevin Horn (727-942-4152, American Boat Works) yesterday and basically the process to re-glass our tanks should be the most cost effective way to go. He recommended Interplastics Corp ( http://www.interplastic.com/ ) VE8870 promoted resin which conforms to UL 1316 standards for "All Fuels".
From Interplastics website: VE8770 Vinyl Ester Superior Solvent Resistance, High Heat Capability. Our highest heat distortion point (300° F/149° C) vinyl ester with outstanding retention of physicals in high heat exposure. CoREZYN® VE8770 is an excellent choice in solvent exposure and in construction of high heat exposure corrosion resistant laminates. Used for UL 1316 "All Fuels" applications.
The process he described was to open the tank, grind the interior glass, wash it out and lay at least 3oz of fiberglass mat. The cost should be the hourly rate (his is $100/hr) plus the resin / fiberglass. He estimated about 10 - 15 hrs.
If anyone knows any good glass guys in NJ let me know. I would suggest that WE supply the resin so there are no "suprises" down the road. Also, it might be a good idea to talk to a surveyor to see if he would write a report to document the work as it was being done. I think it would help for both insurance and sales purposes.
Tony
1985 B33SPF "Wetted Bliss"[/url]
I spoke to Kevin Horn (727-942-4152, American Boat Works) yesterday and basically the process to re-glass our tanks should be the most cost effective way to go. He recommended Interplastics Corp ( http://www.interplastic.com/ ) VE8870 promoted resin which conforms to UL 1316 standards for "All Fuels".
From Interplastics website: VE8770 Vinyl Ester Superior Solvent Resistance, High Heat Capability. Our highest heat distortion point (300° F/149° C) vinyl ester with outstanding retention of physicals in high heat exposure. CoREZYN® VE8770 is an excellent choice in solvent exposure and in construction of high heat exposure corrosion resistant laminates. Used for UL 1316 "All Fuels" applications.
The process he described was to open the tank, grind the interior glass, wash it out and lay at least 3oz of fiberglass mat. The cost should be the hourly rate (his is $100/hr) plus the resin / fiberglass. He estimated about 10 - 15 hrs.
If anyone knows any good glass guys in NJ let me know. I would suggest that WE supply the resin so there are no "suprises" down the road. Also, it might be a good idea to talk to a surveyor to see if he would write a report to document the work as it was being done. I think it would help for both insurance and sales purposes.
Tony
1985 B33SPF "Wetted Bliss"[/url]
1979 Bertram 33' FBC
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
ALEXANDRA
Port Richey, Florida
-
frank price
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 19:45
- Location: Rowley, Ma
Joe,
I checked that resin number. According to Lee Dana the resin used from the mid eighties onward was the hetron692TP25. And again, this is the info I passed on to Mike Stevens at Ashland ,and this is the resin he will be testing. (I hope)
Obviously this may be good news for owners of later boats, or not, but it does seem like the older tanks were built out of whatever resins they were using for the boat hulls at the time.
Frank
I checked that resin number. According to Lee Dana the resin used from the mid eighties onward was the hetron692TP25. And again, this is the info I passed on to Mike Stevens at Ashland ,and this is the resin he will be testing. (I hope)
Obviously this may be good news for owners of later boats, or not, but it does seem like the older tanks were built out of whatever resins they were using for the boat hulls at the time.
Frank
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