Confirming assurance of no ethanol history?

[Tommy]

Hey guys,

I touched on this a few weeks ago, but wanted the collective wisdom of all of you. Some of our buddies and I are looking at a gas B-31, and the broker assures that no ethanol has ever been introduced into the tank. Assuming that the home marina (northern Michigan) has always provided ethanol-free gasoline, the claim may be valid. I didn't want to hi-jack Gert's or John's thread, so here's the question: can a mechanic confirm if any of this poison has EVER gone through the tank?

I checked out Rawleigh's link about the "795161" Alcohol Tester, but it suggests it can detect 10% ethanol. If the bad stuff has been diluted with pure gasoline, the tester may fail to detect. I guess the real question to answer is whether it is possible that a 40 year-old gas powered boat could go through it's entire life and always dodge that demon (especially since the dangers of the mixture were slow getting to the public)?

Thanks for humoring me guys.....I might be getting back into the game.

Tommy

[In Memory Walter K]

If Northern Michigan has had 10% Ethanol anywhere in the past 5 years, I would find it hard to believe.

[CaptPatrick]

Tommy,

First, boat brokers are notorious liers, but you already knew that...

Petoskey VALVTECT 89 Petoskey City Marina 201 Bay Front Drive is one marina in northern MI that is listed as having ethanol free gasoline. There are probably others.
Source: Pure-Gas.org

There's probably no way of knowing if ethanol laced fuel ever touched the tank, but removing either the fill or distribution manifold from the top of the tank and inspecting the condition of the fiberglass and gelcoat inside should be in the survey list. Won't be necessary to check both areas since the tanks will most likely be consistant throughout.

A Mechanical survey of the engines is a must and particular attention being paid to any indication of gummy inside the carb or throttle body.

Br,

Patrick

[John F.]

I don't know how to confirm, but I can tell you i bought my B31 in 2002, and we got ethanol in MD in about '06 in most counties, and went state-wide in 3/07. I ran my boat to an E10 county for fuel in '06, and only ran one tank of non-E10 fuel through her in '07. In '08 I replaced the tank, and ran her with no problems in 09-10 until I sold her. As far as I'm concerned, she never had E10 in her--so I think its possible (and I think my dates are right).

I just reread this and am not sure its helpful, but I already typed it out, so...

[In Memory of Vicroy]

And many of the common gas addatives contain alcohol to "dry" or absorb any water in the fuel, so most all tanks have had some, even if just a little, alcohol in them at some point so an "absolute" test for alky would probably turn up positive.

Tommy, how about requiring a clause in the bill of sale - to be signed by the owner, not some broker or agent, but the actual title owner - that to the best of his knowledge, information & belief no ethenol-containing gas has ever been put in the tank, and he acknowledges that this assurance is material to your decision to buy the boat. That way if he refuses to sign, walk....if he does sign and it turns out that he knowingly lied, you can wipe his butt with the bill of sale.

I'll be happy to help devise such a simple trap.....

UV

[John F.]

Tommy-

Just curious, but are you going to diesel right away? If not, and the motors are OK, how much does it really matter?

John

[Carl]

Tommy-

Just curious, but are you going to diesel right away? If not, and the motors are OK, how much does it really matter?

John

I was wondering that myself. If staying with gas, how do you avoid E-10. Unless you have a local source and then stay local.

If going diesel...dad had 440 gassers in his ol Hatteras. He thought motors were going, got a deal on a pair of diesels and converted. Turns out his motors were injesting his glass tank. I pulled a plug on one of
the removed motors and it was laced with Goo... This was after I found out what the problem was on my boat and knew the symptoms.

Oh, the point I was trying to make. He had a glass tank and was running E-10, having problems and converted to diesel using the same tank. He did have to polish the fuel quite a bit at first as flakes clogged the filters...but after that he has been running for years on that tank.
Just some more info to toss into the fire.

Good luck.
Carl

[Tommy]

John,

Good question. The boat has very low hour gas engines (200 hours total on recent Crusader "Captains Choice" 8.1 MPI) so our plan would be to use those engines indefinitely (we are low-hour users, so a diesel repower doesn't make economic sense). The marina here in NC where we would home-port the boat carries only non-ethanol fuel, and we only plan to use it in local waters, so we believe we could enjoy the boat with the existing FG tank and the existing motors for many years without being corrupted by ethanol. We may be kidding ourselves, but that's the plan. We are going to sea-trial the boat this weekend, and we plan to have the mechanic perform a compression check (and inspect all 16 plugs for black goo), and we plan to have him pull one of the fuel tank ports for visual inspection of the interior of the tank.

So what do you think guys......are we kidding ourselves with this optimistic plan?

Tommy

[In Memory Walter K]

I don't know economics of the purchase or the purchasers, but factor in the reality of a future resale. If limited to your immediate area, fine. Anyone outside that would have to include the price of a new tank installation/deck in his bargaining.

[John F.]

Tommy-

Walter makes a good point, but its all a matter of money. If it checks out OK, and the price is right, it sounds like a good plan to me. The 8.1 Crusaders are supposed to be great motors--she'll fly. Good luck. A freshwater B31 with 8.1s--the perfect gasser.

John

[Bruce]

Tommy,
You have ANY questions while your at the boat, call me anytime.

If your gonna remove a bronze port on the tank, pull some fuel out of the bottom of the tank and take a look at, besides the inside tank condition.

Put the fuel in a glass jar and let sit to see if there is any seperation. If theres seperation at first, likely water and thats okay, seperates over time kinda indicates water logged ethanol seperating. Could also indicate the use of dry gass(alky) for prevention of line freezing.

The tank should have some dirt, sludge for its age. Unless it has been flushed, there should be some of that. Pristine looking tank innerds can be the ethanol scrubbing it clean.

If the mechanic has a bore scope (should) look into the cylinders to see if there is any black buildup in the valve faces that will help also.

Don't go by what the marina advertises. They sometimes don't know what they get from a distributor.

[Tommy]

Walter, John and Bruce; thanks so much.

I contacted the marina in northern Michigan (Ward Brother's Boats, Inc. in Charlevoix)), and they said they have always sold non-ethanol gas. But like some of you have pointed out, even marinas can't be 100% sure of what they are taking delivery of. They run a small charter fleet of B-31s (2 Bahia Mars and a Sportfish), so they seem to be knowledgable about the Bertram tank issue. The boat we're looking at was not in the charter fleet, but a privately owned SF that was very lightly used, and stored inside in the off-season.

Bruce, Jim Bailey and I plan to fly up Sunday to check her out, so we'll probably give you a call.

Tommy

[John F.]

Jim Bailey and I plan to fly up Sunday to check her out

Couple of not-recovered B31 addicts....good luck.

[Tommy]

We both got off the Kool-aid for a while, but we couldn't stay, off as John noted.

[MarkS]

UV,
I will check with you first if I ever need someone to devise a trap for me.
Your purity of thought always gives me hope in clear thinking humans.

I love this sandbox,
Mark

and of course thanks capt.